Big Boy vs Challenger boiler?

Rats, I was lied to!

she's coming up short?

The two most impressive models of a gauge one Big Boy I ever viewed in person were made by Aster and Charles Ro respectively.

The Aster was a live steam model while the Ro version was electric.

Tinplate Art posted:

The Aster was a live steam model while the Ro version was electric.

in two runs (1981 & 1986), Aster only produced 330 #1 scale Big Boy locomotives, all live steam, and commanding some big $ even today.  it is accurate in 1:32 scale unlike the 1:29 scale, electric Big Boy by Chas. Ro, which, technically was the largest Big Boy made to run on #1 gauge track, but only because it was erroneously blown up to ~10% larger than scale size.  and again, while it might be less detailed, at least the 1:32 scale, MTH One Gauge, electric Big Boy is dimensionally very accurate.

if you want to go live steam, the Accucraft model is likely still available and it will be a whole lot less than if you even found an Aster locomotive for sale.  the Accucraft Big Boy is also the more accurate 1:32 scale.

If I am not mistaken the Ro Big Boy was a diecast engine.

There's also the Row & Company 1:32 brass Big Boy that usually brings around 12K on the market along with the Fine Arts Model 1:32 Big Boy that brings about the same price.

In the large scale Big Boy wars MTH came out on top and now are on the third or fourth production run.

The fine superbly detailed USA Trains Big Boy has had 2 production runs.

The Accucraft/ AMS 1:32 Big Boy was originally commissioned to be made by St. Aubin owner Patrick Sullivan...I know because I was there at the time. Upon release to the public it fizzled as it didn't look nor sit right upon the rails. Even Garden Railways magazine shot it down. Original price was like $3,200.00 with sound but that was later dropped to as low as $2,200.00...but they still wouldn't sell.

overlandflyer posted:

Tinplate Art posted:

The Aster was a live steam model while the Ro version was electric.

in two runs (1981 & 1986), Aster only produced 330 #1 scale Big Boy locomotives, all live steam, and commanding some big $ even today. 

As far as I know/remember, but I have no further source to prove, ASTER made 100 Big Boys in live steam and 30 electric with number 4002 in 1981 (delivered (at least to me) in 1982) and 100 Big Boys with number 4023 in 1986. There were some complaints about the rerun in 1986 but ASTER (and Fulgurex) claimed that 4023 was a different type so it was no rerun! I still run my ASTER Big Boy every now and then:

Regards

Fred

This maybe a stupid question: but how do you keep track of the water level in the boiler on those?  Or does it not matter in that scale?

John Mills posted:

This maybe a stupid question: but how do you keep track of the water level in the boiler on those?  Or does it not matter in that scale?

My guess would be a simple boiler sight glass.

Best I can tell both the Challenger and Big Boy boiler water capacity was 25,000 gal.

TM Terry posted:

John Mills posted:

This maybe a stupid question: but how do you keep track of the water level in the boiler on those?  Or does it not matter in that scale?

My guess would be a simple boiler sight glass.

There is indeed a boiler sight glass on this model; so every few rounds I take a look. The boiler feed is by an axle pump which normally just works.

Regards

Fred

sncf231e posted:

TM Terry posted:

John Mills posted:

This maybe a stupid question: but how do you keep track of the water level in the boiler on those?  Or does it not matter in that scale?

My guess would be a simple boiler sight glass.

There is indeed a boiler sight glass on this model; so every few rounds I take a look. The boiler feed is by an axle pump which normally just works.

Regards

Fred

Does the tender carry water that you can pump it manually to the boiler?

TM Terry posted:

Does the tender carry water that you can pump it manually to the boiler?

Yes indeed, the tender carries water which is pumped by the axle pump into the boiler but can also be pumped manually by a hand pump. This is also the way, i.e. by hand pump, that I initially fill the boiler before a run. The tender also contains the fuel tank since this is a butane gas fired model (which was designed to be run with butane gas or by coal; I tried coal firing but failed).

Regards

Fred

sncf231e posted:

overlandflyer posted:

Tinplate Art posted:

The Aster was a live steam model while the Ro version was electric.

in two runs (1981 & 1986), Aster only produced 330 #1 scale Big Boy locomotives, all live steam, and commanding some big $ even today. 

As far as I know/remember, but I have no further source to prove, ASTER made 100 Big Boys in live steam and 30 electric with number 4002 in 1981 (delivered (at least to me) in 1982) and 100 Big Boys with number 4023 in 1986. There were some complaints about the rerun in 1986 but ASTER (and Fulgurex) claimed that 4023 was a different type so it was no rerun! I still run my ASTER Big Boy every now and then:

 

Regards

Fred

i got my data off the Southern Steam Trains site roster of Aster locomotives which i've always found to be pretty accurate before.  in 1981 the run of #4002 was stated at 210 live steam locomotives with the 1986 run (#4024) at 120 pieces.  i do not doubt there could have been some electric versions and perhaps Southern Trains only lists the live steam models.  the Aster site only deals with current production.

sncf231e posted:

TM Terry posted:

Does the tender carry water that you can pump it manually to the boiler?

Yes indeed, the tender carries water which is pumped by the axle pump into the boiler but can also be pumped manually by a hand pump. This is also the way, i.e. by hand pump, that I initially fill the boiler before a run. The tender also contains the fuel tank since this is a butane gas fired model (which was designed to be run with butane gas or by coal; I tried coal firing but failed).

Regards

Fred

Very interesting!

How long can you run (average speed) before re-fueling or adding water?

TM Terry posted:

Best I can tell both the Challenger and Big Boy boiler water capacity was 25,000 gal.

the Big Boy boiler was a bit over 7' diameter.
(25,000 gal x 0.1337 cu'/gal) / (7 x pi) sq' = a boiler length of over 152'

the #1 scale Big Boy models have a boiler capacity of 800cc.  probably not extremely accurate, but more in the ballpark, this scales up to a volume of 6925 gallons for the prototype.

the tender capacity was 24/25,000 gallons in the two different versions.

cheers...gary

TM Terry posted:

Best I can tell both the Challenger and Big Boy boiler water capacity was 25,000 gal.

In the tender, yes. Certainly NOT inside the boiler.

TM Terry posted:

sncf231e posted:

 

Very interesting!

How long can you run (average speed) before re-fueling or adding water?

About an hour on a full fuel tank; water can be easily refilled into the tender on the run.

Regards

Fred

I haven't had much luck finding the normal operating level boiler capacity of the Big Boy or Challenger. While I have had a little control experience on a fire tube boiler for auxilary steam (which is extremely simple). I don't know how much deviation from set point that operating steam locomotives normally tolerated.

TM Terry posted:

I haven't had much luck finding the normal operating level boiler capacity of the Big Boy or Challenger. While I have had a little control experience on a fire tube boiler for auxilary steam (which is extremely simple). I don't know how much deviation from set point that operating steam locomotives normally tolerated.

There really is no "normal operating level"  for any steam locomotive, as everything depends on the terrain being negotiated. For "normal" flat territory, I've always maintained a half a gauge glass of water, thus when encountering a "roller-coaster" territory, the boiler water is never too low, nor too high. Operating in mountainous territory, is a whole different operating situation, as the Fireman MUST be prepared for a steep down-grade right after climbing a steep up-grade.

I want my  MTV, er, 3985!  But that's not going to happen soon! 

Hot Water: If it can be assumed the boiler sight glass is a single glass tube, about how long would it typically be? I'm guessing 300 psig is still low enough that a thick glass tube could be made strong enough to function safely.

Just wondering: Has anyone ever crafted one of these monsters in 1 1/2" scale, 7 1/2" gauge? 

Tinplate Art posted:

Just wondering: Has anyone ever crafted one of these monsters in 1 1/2" scale, 7 1/2" gauge? 

Yes. There are 7 1/2" gauge working models of Challengers as well as quite a few working models of UP 4000 class. I know there are videos of Tom Miller's "back yard railroad" with his 4-8-8-4 running.

TM Terry posted:

Hot Water: If it can be assumed the boiler sight glass is a single glass tube, about how long would it typically be? I'm guessing 300 psig is still low enough that a thick glass tube could be made strong enough to function safely.

About 10" to 12" long, with the glass front piece about 1/2" thick. It is not just  a "glass tube". The actual "site glass" is clamped into a thick brass housing, and then surrounded by an "explosion proof" glass cake fixture, incase the site glass piece leaks. Thus live steam does NOT blow into the cab. There is a gauge for both the Engineer and Fireman, on their respective sides of the cab. At least that is how SP 4449 is designed/laid out.

Hot Water posted:

TM Terry posted:

Hot Water: If it can be assumed the boiler sight glass is a single glass tube, about how long would it typically be? I'm guessing 300 psig is still low enough that a thick glass tube could be made strong enough to function safely.

About 10" to 12" long, with the glass front piece about 1/2" thick. It is not just  a "glass tube". The actual "site glass" is clamped into a thick brass housing, and then surrounded by an "explosion proof" glass cake fixture, incase the site glass piece leaks. Thus live steam does NOT blow into the cab. There is a gauge for both the Engineer and Fireman, on their respective sides of the cab. At least that is how SP 4449 is designed/laid out.

Thanks. That makes sense. How often do they change or clean the inside of the sight "glass"? Is that particular maintenance fairly easy, or is it only do in more extensive maintenance outages? Two sight glasses makes good safety sense: redundancy. Thanks again.

TM Terry posted:

Hot Water posted:

TM Terry posted:

Hot Water: If it can be assumed the boiler sight glass is a single glass tube, about how long would it typically be? I'm guessing 300 psig is still low enough that a thick glass tube could be made strong enough to function safely.

About 10" to 12" long, with the glass front piece about 1/2" thick. It is not just  a "glass tube". The actual "site glass" is clamped into a thick brass housing, and then surrounded by an "explosion proof" glass cake fixture, incase the site glass piece leaks. Thus live steam does NOT blow into the cab. There is a gauge for both the Engineer and Fireman, on their respective sides of the cab. At least that is how SP 4449 is designed/laid out.

Thanks. That makes sense. How often do they change or clean the inside of the sight "glass"?

Usually during the quarterly (90 day) inspection when all the gauges are dead weight tested.

Is that particular maintenance fairly easy,

Yes.

or is it only do in more extensive maintenance outages? Two sight glasses makes good safety sense: redundancy. Thanks again.

If I recall correctly, there are usually tri-cocks (valves) that allow checking the sight glass levels at three different points to help insure accuracy of the visual level in the glass. They basically vent the steam/water off to the side to get a true reading of the water level. At TVRM, our sight glasses were serviced with the monthly boiler wash.