I hate using an expensive Samsung tablet around the trains, due to risk of breakage. My smart phone is really too small to be enjoyable. I see on Amazon there are several 7" or 8" tablets <=$50. I'd be interested in hearing if anyone out there in Forumland has used any of these and what is their evaluation of these devices.
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There are some RCA 7" & 10" tablets out there that I have seen for $40 to $50. I have an older 10" RCA that I thought about mounting as a stationary unit for Switch & Accessory control. It has work well with both the MTH & Lionel apps, it was just too big to carry around the layout.
Robert,
I suspect that you'll get what you pay for regarding quality and performance. That is, if you're lucky! 
Barry brings up a good point. Make sure that the "El Cheapo" tablet has Google Play. Many cheap units don't and this could make it hard to install the app and purchase the standard or premium upgrade.
If the tablet is tailored for nothing but using the iCab or DCS app, I would suspect that even the low end units can handle the light work load.
H1000 posted:Barry brings up a good point. Make sure that the "El Cheapo" tablet has Google Play. Many cheap units don't and this could make it hard to install the app and purchase the standard or premium upgrade.
If the tablet is tailored for nothing but using the iCab or DCS app, I would suspect that even the low end units can handle the light work load.
Many?
Not sure I've ever encountered a Android device that didn't have Play Store - Google makes Android - not sure why they would omit it.
Might be some odd builds - like Kindle - but I think its not hard to install Play Store on those.
Agree on the last point - this is NOT a resource intensive app, memory or bandwidth-wise - any recent device should be fine.
Unless you are somehow invested in apple products already - I see no reason to plunk down more cash for an identical experience.
I have an LG 10" tablet that is running Android 5 and is two years old. Bought it at an electronics store then for around $200. It is wifi only capable, but does everything I need and runs all the Android apps well.
GG1, I have been using a Samsung Tab A 10", but it's too bulky to really hold in one hand. Plus too expensive when I drop it.
RJR posted:I hate using an expensive Samsung tablet around the trains, due to risk of breakage. My smart phone is really too small to be enjoyable. I see on Amazon there are several 7" or 8" tablets <=$50. I'd be interested in hearing if anyone out there in Forumland has used any of these and what is their evaluation of these devices.
Picked up a 7" RCA from Walmart (on-line/drop-shipped to store). Works great and has good battery life in general and as a train controller. I think I paid $50 for it, plus it came with a keyboard dock.
Roving Sign posted:H1000 posted:Barry brings up a good point. Make sure that the "El Cheapo" tablet has Google Play. Many cheap units don't and this could make it hard to install the app and purchase the standard or premium upgrade.
If the tablet is tailored for nothing but using the iCab or DCS app, I would suspect that even the low end units can handle the light work load.
Many?
Not sure I've ever encountered a Android device that didn't have Play Store - Google makes Android - not sure why they would omit it.
Might be some odd builds - like Kindle - but I think its not hard to install Play Store on those.
Agree on the last point - this is NOT a resource intensive app, memory or bandwidth-wise - any recent device should be fine.
Unless you are somehow invested in apple products already - I see no reason to plunk down more cash for an identical experience.
Unlike Apple, Google only builds a few of the many Android devices with their name on them (actually built by other manufactures to their specs) nor does it really own the Android operating system as that OS is built on a Linux platform that is available to anyone to use for free. Hence, the Android OS can be put on just about anything without Google's knowledge or approval.
The Google Play store app however is under full control of Google. Google has published a list approved devices that are allowed to run this app which can be found here: Google Play Devices Everything hinges on a devices ability to access the Play Store.There are some ways to get around this but it's not easy and these hacks usually don't last long before Google "plugs the hole". Do a Google search for "Play Store on unsupported devices" for more info.
I was able to actually import the MTH DCS App APK file into a device that was not on the list above. However, the app was not able to sync with my google account to know that I have purchased the premium app nor was I able to buy the premium app. I was stuck using the free version on that device. The device is a $45 8" tablet made by Polaroid and it runs Android 4.4 that I got on a black Friday deal about three years ago. Polaroid has made other device that are on the list but this particular one was not.
Budget devices shipped from China are all about cheap and most likely don't want to spend the money on building a quality product to meet Google's standards to allow use of the Play Store app. It would absolutely wrong and fraudulent for a seller to advertise a device with the Play Store logo when that device is unable to access the Play Store.
Thanks, H1000, for some interesting and previously unheard info, and the link.
Thanks to all above for your comments.
H1000 posted:Roving Sign posted:H1000 posted:Barry brings up a good point. Make sure that the "El Cheapo" tablet has Google Play. Many cheap units don't and this could make it hard to install the app and purchase the standard or premium upgrade.
If the tablet is tailored for nothing but using the iCab or DCS app, I would suspect that even the low end units can handle the light work load.
Many?
Not sure I've ever encountered a Android device that didn't have Play Store - Google makes Android - not sure why they would omit it.
Might be some odd builds - like Kindle - but I think its not hard to install Play Store on those.
Agree on the last point - this is NOT a resource intensive app, memory or bandwidth-wise - any recent device should be fine.
Unless you are somehow invested in apple products already - I see no reason to plunk down more cash for an identical experience.
Unlike Apple, Google only builds a few of the many Android devices with their name on them (actually built by other manufactures to their specs) nor does it really own the Android operating system as that OS is built on a Linux platform that is available to anyone to use for free. Hence, the Android OS can be put on just about anything without Google's knowledge or approval.
The Google Play store app however is under full control of Google. Google has published a list approved devices that are allowed to run this app which can be found here: Google Play Devices Everything hinges on a devices ability to access the Play Store.There are some ways to get around this but it's not easy and these hacks usually don't last long before Google "plugs the hole". Do a Google search for "Play Store on unsupported devices" for more info.
I was able to actually import the MTH DCS App APK file into a device that was not on the list above. However, the app was not able to sync with my google account to know that I have purchased the premium app nor was I able to buy the premium app. I was stuck using the free version on that device. The device is a $45 8" tablet made by Polaroid and it runs Android 4.4 that I got on a black Friday deal about three years ago. Polaroid has made other device that are on the list but this particular one was not.
Budget devices shipped from China are all about cheap and most likely don't want to spend the money on building a quality product to meet Google's standards to allow use of the Play Store app. It would absolutely wrong and fraudulent for a seller to advertise a device with the Play Store logo when that device is unable to access the Play Store.
Understood - but I think you can still install the PlayStore APK on devices that don't come with it (and then get/sync to your account) - I was taking issue with the characterization of "many" cheap units don't come with this - which I think is misleading. "A few older, cheaper devices" might be more accurate - check the specs. I would think any manufacturer that is the phone game will support Play - I'm thinking Huawei, ZTE, Alcatel - thats what comes to mind when I think "el cheapo"
That said - as a member of the Facebook X-Air Users group - 7100 members strong - who all use wireless devices to control our audio mixers - I have never heard this complaint. I just polled the users - we'll see what they say.
Here's a few el cheapos - since StraightTalk is in the phone game - you know they will have Play.
ZTE Unico - 4.5 inch screen - 19.99 - free shipping
https://shop.straighttalk.com/...tioned-stzez930gr4-p
Huawei Raven - 5.5 inch screen - 24.99 - free shipping
https://shop.straighttalk.com/...-H892L-Reconditioned
More at https://shop.straighttalk.com/.../straighttalk/phones
$40 tablets are a great idea if you're comfortable with the idea that the product is disposable. The low cost means low build quality, weak warranty, and no cost-effective way to repair. If this was for a 6 year old to noodle around on, I'd say that is a great choice.
The important thing to keep in mind is that there are cheap ways of building most anything, whether that is a tablet, a car, a house...or a model train. There is a cost to quality, and with a tablet, those costs can be seen in factors like battery life (power efficiency), screen image sharpness, speed of processing (lag time in execution), quality of wifi and Bluetooth radios (connection quality), and so forth.
Many inexpensive tablets use underpowered, outdated CPUs, which can't work on newer versions of Android. This limits the range of apps you can use in the long run, as apps are updated to requiring more powerful processors and increased memory needs. In addition, software updates for that version of the OS stop being made, which makes the device vulnerable to attacks.
Each person has his/her threshold of risk tolerance. Mine is quite low. Mine is fairly low. I work with folks who have been hacked, and have personally been hacked, so security is a high priority. Likewise, an underpowered or poorly-built device can have lag and technical problems which ultimately rob you of pleasure in your use of the device. It can pay huge dividends to ask your friends for personal recommendations, and read reviews of the models you're considering. It may give you a largely better experience to pay a little more money than you're planning now.
Your analysis is correct. But I have found that even with a reasonably expensive item, the cost to repair, and the odds of getting a repair done well, are such that it is often a better choice to just replace. What I'm looking for would be a device strictly for running trains with the MTH wifi app, and having no other apps but Play Store. And when it gets dropped & shatters, no great loss.
William Detoy posted:Many inexpensive tablets use underpowered, outdated CPUs, which can't work on newer versions of Android. This limits the range of apps you can use in the long run, as apps are updated to requiring more powerful processors and increased memory needs. In addition, software updates for that version of the OS stop being made, which makes the device vulnerable to attacks.
Each person has his/her threshold of risk tolerance. Mine is quite low. Mine is fairly low. I work with folks who have been hacked, and have personally been hacked, so security is a high priority.
There's no need to be connected to the internet when using the app - the only thing MTH mentions if you are on the HOME network (with internet access) is you have access to the documentation via the app - not a huge benefit IMO - And in that case - your network is the gateway - and up to you to secure - if you have - you'll likely have no issues with whatever you connect to it.
That said - if I ever get to a full blast DCS system - I'll have a dedicated router/network - (with no internet access) - to run the trains.
William Detoy posted:$40 tablets are a great idea if you're comfortable with the idea that the product is disposable. The low cost means low build quality, weak warranty, and no cost-effective way to repair. If this was for a 6 year old to noodle around on, I'd say that is a great choice.
Exactly - they are breakable without regret! For a 25 dollar phone - I wouldn't waste my time screwing around with a warranty claim - just buy another one. I've been using sub-50 dollar Hauwei phones for a few years - the biggest problem I have is losing them!
William Detoy posted:Many inexpensive tablets use underpowered, outdated CPUs, which can't work on newer versions of Android. This limits the range of apps you can use in the long run, as apps are updated to requiring more powerful processors and increased memory needs. In addition, software updates for that version of the OS stop being made, which makes the device vulnerable to attacks.
Yes - you will have to pay attention to specs - but you surely don't need the newest version of Android to run the App
I have it running on a 2010 ACER Iconia with Android 4.something - seems to work as it should. And since the app is not terribly resource or bandwidth intensive - I think most anything running a 4.X Android should be fine - Not sure MTH has published any "minimum system requirements"?
In any case - its not quite the crap-shoot your are making it out to be.
Somewhere, MTH has said app requires Android 4.0 or higher. I have an old Samsung tablet running an earlier version, and app will not load.
Roving Sign, one does not need internaet access to run MTH wifi. The WIU can communicate directly with the handheld device.
RJR posted:Somewhere, MTH has said app requires Android 4.0 or higher. I have an old Samsung tablet running an earlier version, and app will not load.
Roving Sign, one does not need internaet access to run MTH wifi. The WIU can communicate directly with the handheld device.
Understood - there are 2 modes MTH and HOME
MTH is a dedicated, internet-less network.
HOME uses your home network, which presumably has internet.
But you could also use HOME with a router that is not connected to the internet - that's what I would prefer - keep the router near the layout - cut down on bandwidth clogs since nobody will be streaming NETFLIX while I run trains.
As far as I know, HOME does not use my home network. I have not logged it into my network.
RJR posted:As far as I know, HOME does not use my home network. I have not logged it into my network.
What's it do then? - I've only read the manual
Page 6 - http://mthtrains.com/sites/def...ction/50as13515i.pdf
In HOME network mode, your WIU connects with your existing home Wi-Fi network. Just make sure your device is connected as usual, open your app, and run your trains! In this mode, you can choose the links within the app to check out our online catalogs, newsletters, or search for products.
Robert,
As far as I know, HOME does not use my home network. I have not logged it into my network
It absolutely must be using some network. If it isn't using yours, is it perhaps using your neighbor's WiFi?
Wouldn't that would be illegal?
In the example outlined in the instruction manual, the MTH wifi unit creates an ad how network using wifi radio frequencies but not connecting with the local wifi router. The only connection made is between the device and the MTH WIU.
Roving Sign posted:RJR posted:Somewhere, MTH has said app requires Android 4.0 or higher. I have an old Samsung tablet running an earlier version, and app will not load.
Roving Sign, one does not need internaet access to run MTH wifi. The WIU can communicate directly with the handheld device.
Understood - there are 2 modes MTH and HOME
MTH is a dedicated, internet-less network.
HOME uses your home network, which presumably has internet.
But you could also use HOME with a router that is not connected to the internet - that's what I would prefer - keep the router near the layout - cut down on bandwidth clogs since nobody will be streaming NETFLIX while I run trains.
I think a pretty old router (802.11b) might have these problems with streaming media overloading the wireless bandwidth, but the MTH WIU uses very little wireless bandwidth and only in very short spurts.
I use the WIU on the MTH mode and connected it to my router via an Ethernet cable. I tracked the actual data throughput on that Ethernet port and we are talking ity bity amounts of data being sent & received.
I prefer the wired method as I use the uncrowded 5.8GHz band on my router and avoid the 2.4Ghz when possible. A Wired connection to the WIU will always provide faster and more reliable connections, if this really is a concern.
On the club layout, there are 4 WIU in MTH mode that are wired to a single router (without internet) that provides one wireless signal for all device to connect to. The wireless radios on the WIU's are disabled using the LuCi web interface. This avoids the mess of all of the extra 2.4GHz signals flying through the air from the WIU's and we didn't have to mess around with the clunky WPS buttons.
A quick tip, when connecting a WIU to a network using an Ethernet cable, assign the WIU a static IP address in the LuCi interface,I found the WIU will be online just a little bit quicker.
William Detoy posted:In the example outlined in the instruction manual, the MTH wifi unit creates an ad how network using wifi radio frequencies but not connecting with the local wifi router. The only connection made is between the device and the MTH WIU.
That's in MTH mode - sort of the most plug-and-play of the setup options - as far as I can tell.
HOME mode will use your router - or assume you have multiple interfaces - then you might have one on MTH and the rest on HOME
Page 5
"In MTH network mode, one of modules will act as a router and allow your smart device to connect to multiple modules. In this mode, the “master” module, that will act as a router, must be put in MTH mode. Then, as many as 4 additional TIUs can be connected. The additional modules must be put in HOME mode."
H1000 posted:Roving Sign posted:RJR posted:Somewhere, MTH has said app requires Android 4.0 or higher. I have an old Samsung tablet running an earlier version, and app will not load.
Roving Sign, one does not need internaet access to run MTH wifi. The WIU can communicate directly with the handheld device.
Understood - there are 2 modes MTH and HOME
MTH is a dedicated, internet-less network.
HOME uses your home network, which presumably has internet.
But you could also use HOME with a router that is not connected to the internet - that's what I would prefer - keep the router near the layout - cut down on bandwidth clogs since nobody will be streaming NETFLIX while I run trains.
I think a pretty old router (802.11b) might have these problems with streaming media overloading the wireless bandwidth, but the MTH WIU uses very little wireless bandwidth and only in very short spurts.
I use the WIU on the MTH mode and connected it to my router via an Ethernet cable. I tracked the actual data throughput on that Ethernet port and we are talking ity bity amounts of data being sent & received.
I prefer the wired method as I use the uncrowded 5.8GHz band on my router and avoid the 2.4Ghz when possible. A Wired connection to the WIU will always provide faster and more reliable connections, if this really is a concern.
On the club layout, there are 4 WIU in MTH mode that are wired to a single router (without internet) that provides one wireless signal for all device to connect to. The wireless radios on the WIU's are disabled using the LuCi web interface. This avoids the mess of all of the extra 2.4GHz signals flying through the air from the WIU's and we didn't have to mess around with the clunky WPS buttons.
A quick tip, when connecting a WIU to a network using an Ethernet cable, assign the WIU a static IP address in the LuCi interface,I found the WIU will be online just a little bit quicker.
For sure - but as cheap as routers are - I'll take a dedicated one - I can't see the need to have an internet connection.
Ultimately - I would wire it all together with Ethernet and only use wireless for the tablet/phone controllers.
In my sound engineer job - I use a dual band router - which as you said - far less clutter (so far!) in the 5ghz band - which is nice when you're working in a room with 200 cell phones looking for internet...
Roving Sign posted:William Detoy posted:Many inexpensive tablets use underpowered, outdated CPUs, which can't work on newer versions of Android. This limits the range of apps you can use in the long run, as apps are updated to requiring more powerful processors and increased memory needs. In addition, software updates for that version of the OS stop being made, which makes the device vulnerable to attacks.
Each person has his/her threshold of risk tolerance. Mine is quite low. Mine is fairly low. I work with folks who have been hacked, and have personally been hacked, so security is a high priority.
There's no need to be connected to the internet when using the app - the only thing MTH mentions if you are on the HOME network (with internet access) is you have access to the documentation via the app - not a huge benefit IMO - And in that case - your network is the gateway - and up to you to secure - if you have - you'll likely have no issues with whatever you connect to it.
That said - if I ever get to a full blast DCS system - I'll have a dedicated router/network - (with no internet access) - to run the trains.
William Detoy posted:$40 tablets are a great idea if you're comfortable with the idea that the product is disposable. The low cost means low build quality, weak warranty, and no cost-effective way to repair. If this was for a 6 year old to noodle around on, I'd say that is a great choice.
Exactly - they are breakable without regret! For a 25 dollar phone - I wouldn't waste my time screwing around with a warranty claim - just buy another one. I've been using sub-50 dollar Hauwei phones for a few years - the biggest problem I have is losing them!
William Detoy posted:Many inexpensive tablets use underpowered, outdated CPUs, which can't work on newer versions of Android. This limits the range of apps you can use in the long run, as apps are updated to requiring more powerful processors and increased memory needs. In addition, software updates for that version of the OS stop being made, which makes the device vulnerable to attacks.
Yes - you will have to pay attention to specs - but you surely don't need the newest version of Android to run the App
I have it running on a 2010 ACER Iconia with Android 4.something - seems to work as it should. And since the app is not terribly resource or bandwidth intensive - I think most anything running a 4.X Android should be fine - Not sure MTH has published any "minimum system requirements"?
In any case - its not quite the crap-shoot your are making it out to be.
My point was to calibrate the expectations of anyone thinking a sub-$50 tablet would provide an equivalent experience to that provided by Samsung, Apple, LG, etc. Most folks' experience with small devices is based off their cellphone, and most top brand cellphones have pretty good QC and a consistent experience.
On the other hand, a cheaply made tablet with components so mediocre to allow a profitable selling point under $50 has to make compromises in build quality and performance. A poor quality wifi or Bluetooth radio may work most of the time, but if it has the habit of dropping the connection intermittently--which would be crazy-making if the sole purpose was to drive a MTH WIU or a Bluetooth Lionel loco--then it isn't that great a deal. Likewise, if power management is poor, then the battery life will suffer and "play" would have to take a time out to allow the device to recharge. If the screen isn't bright or sharp, then it is a less enjoyable experience.
Finally, even though the device doesn't need to connect to the internet to work with WIU, that doesn't guarantee no one will ever use it that way. The older the version of Android OS the more vulnerable it is.
I have no dog in this fight, and if anyone wants to use an iPad, a $35 Android tablet running Honeycomb, or two wet shoelaces connected to the WIU, I don't care. Vaya con Dios and have fun. I was only pointing out that there is a reason top line manufacturers don't sell $50 tablets, and "greed" isn't the reason why.
William Detoy posted:My point was to calibrate the expectations of anyone thinking a sub-$50 tablet would provide an equivalent experience to that provided by Samsung, Apple, LG, etc. Most folks' experience with small devices is based off their cellphone, and most top brand cellphones have pretty good QC and a consistent experience.
I depends on what your trying to experience - if you're watching NETFLIX or doing video intensive stuff - I might agree - but since the demands of the DCS app are pretty minimal in memory/process/bandwidth - I think this experience will be just fine.
William Detoy posted:On the other hand, a cheaply made tablet with components so mediocre to allow a profitable selling point under $50 has to make compromises in build quality and performance. A poor quality wifi or Bluetooth radio may work most of the time, but if it has the habit of dropping the connection intermittently--which would be crazy-making if the sole purpose was to drive a MTH WIU or a Bluetooth Lionel loco--then it isn't that great a deal.
Bluetooth? There is no ANDROID app for LIONEL...vaporware at this point. Irrelevant.
William Detoy posted:Likewise, if power management is poor, then the battery life will suffer and "play" would have to take a time out to allow the device to recharge. If the screen isn't bright or sharp, then it is a less enjoyable experience.
Apple products are notorious for their poor battery life - this is your weakest card!
I'm sitting at the pub right now - watching 2 lady apple users tethered to the wall.
But - getting low on battery - just grab a USB battery - they sell them everywhere.
William Detoy posted:.Finally, even though the device doesn't need to connect to the internet to work with WIU, that doesn't guarantee no one will ever use it that way. The older the version of Android OS the more vulnerable it is.
I plan on having a dedicated device - that will "guarantee no one will ever use it that way"- its mine - I determine how it gets used.
I have 4 Android devices that I use to run my PA system - the only time they have ever been online is when I added the apps from PlayStore - other than that, all they ever see are internet-less networks. No way I'm toting a pile of apple devices to a gig - nor will I be passing them out to musicians! All they have ever done is work perfectly (ACER/Huawei/ZTE)
And - this is Wi-Fi - security-wise, they have to get past your network (assuming you're net connected) to get to your phone/tablet. I'm not using the cellular part at all - which would probably represents a more vulnerable attack vector - If you network is not secure - that's not the phones fault.
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