can someone provide me a definative visual discriptive answer as how to define an f3 from an f7 loco? where is the difference ? thanks, paul.
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For me the easiest way to tell them apart is by the roof fans. There is a high cowling around the F3's.
Wikipedia: There are no easily identifiable differences between late F3 production and early F7 production; the major differences were all internal electrical system changes. However, no F7 had the “chicken wire” grilles of most F3s.
Lots of F3's had the near flush-mount fans on top.
Wikipedia: F3 Phase II (late)
Built from December 1947. Roof radiator fans change to low, pan-topped items.
Lots of F3's had the near flush-mount fans on top.
Wikipedia: F3 Phase II (late)
Built from December 1947. Roof radiator fans change to low, pan-topped items.
Probably the easiest thing to look for is the dynamic brake cooling grids, two long parallel, rectangular, grill covered openings in the carbody roof, just behind the cab on the F2 & F3 models. The F7 & F9 models had a round 36 inch diameter cooling fan for dynamic brake cooling, right behind the cab area.
One of the hobby magazines printed a joke responding to this exact question years ago:
Q. How do you tell the difference between an F-3 and an F-7?
A. The F-7 has a cracked right vent window and the fireman is left-handed.
Q. How do you tell the difference between an F-3 and an F-7?
A. The F-7 has a cracked right vent window and the fireman is left-handed.
These two are at Steamtown. The Lackawanna's are F3's, The Readings are F7's
Now, if the question had referred to O scale models called F3 and F7 by the manufacturers, it would be a different story....and would depend on whose products you are talking about. 
Jim
Jim
Jim Fuhrman created this web resource that explains it all. It concentrates on Santa Fe and Pennsy but applies to all EMD F-units.
EMD F-unit Phase Charts
EMD F-unit Phase Charts
But all bets are off after a couple of shoppings. I've seen photos of F's with both high and low fans on the same unit.
And.., the Reading units a few post above are FP7's. They're 4 feet longer than the "standard" F.
Rusty
And.., the Reading units a few post above are FP7's. They're 4 feet longer than the "standard" F.
Rusty
very helpful. thanks guys.
OK, this is one for Hot Water: The F5 is a MYTH?
Also, EMD NEVER used "phases". The magazine Extra 2200 South, which was about motive power, came up with the term. As, say EMD changed how the bodies looked on say, the F3, each of these "changes" were called a "phase". This was to keep things straight for the modeler and loco historian. But they were never official EMD terms.
Also, EMD NEVER used "phases". The magazine Extra 2200 South, which was about motive power, came up with the term. As, say EMD changed how the bodies looked on say, the F3, each of these "changes" were called a "phase". This was to keep things straight for the modeler and loco historian. But they were never official EMD terms.
quote:Originally posted by SB..:
Wikipedia: There are no easily identifiable differences between late F3 production and early F7 production; the major differences were all internal electrical system changes. However, no F7 had the “chicken wire” grilles of most F3s.
Again, not quite. The Santa Fe 200 Class (I think that's the class, I don't have my info handy) F7 had "chicken wire" grills. They were delivered with Farr grills, but the grills were removed and applied to passenger F3's.
Ok, so now that we've determined that the major spotting feature between F3 and F7s are the low/high fans, chicken wire / stainless side grills.
I have a question...
The Williams F3's have the low fans and side louvers and lack of chicken wire on the side as on an F7, yet have no stainless side grills. Does this make them F7's?
Also, is there a way to swap out the side grills to change them over to stainless? I know that in HO, many companies offer etched metal grills to make this swap...
Has anyone done this?
Thanks,
Mario
I have a question...
The Williams F3's have the low fans and side louvers and lack of chicken wire on the side as on an F7, yet have no stainless side grills. Does this make them F7's?
Also, is there a way to swap out the side grills to change them over to stainless? I know that in HO, many companies offer etched metal grills to make this swap...
Has anyone done this?
Thanks,
Mario
But, wait! There's more!>>>
What about the DB's? The Williams models do not have DB fans, but rooftop "screens"...
Maybe they are late model F3's...
Has anyone added the stainless grills and/or swapped out the fans for more prototypical details?
Thanks,
Mario
What about the DB's? The Williams models do not have DB fans, but rooftop "screens"...
Maybe they are late model F3's...
Has anyone added the stainless grills and/or swapped out the fans for more prototypical details?
Thanks,
Mario
quote:The Williams F3's have the low fans and side louvers and lack of chicken wire on the side as on an F7, yet have no stainless side grills. Does this make them F7's?
Naw just a not accurately done model. Kind of normal for our hobby.
quote:What about the DB's? The Williams models do not have DB fans, but rooftop "screens"...
I tried to tell you guys earlier in this thread, that the key visual difference between an F3 and an F7/F9, is the dynamic brake cooling method. The F3 has ONLY those two rectangular slots wit screening, where as the F7/F9 models have a 36 inch diameter cooling "blower" mounted in that area of the carbody roof.
quote:Originally posted by VaGolfer1950:quote:The Williams F3's have the low fans and side louvers and lack of chicken wire on the side as on an F7, yet have no stainless side grills. Does this make them F7's?
Naw just a not accurately done model. Kind of normal for our hobby.
Remember guys, the Williams "F3" is a deliberate clone of the Lionel model, as is the MTH RailKing Scale version.
Good enough for the 1950's, good enough for nostalgia. Way off the mark for a full scale model.
Rusty
P&D Hobbies has grille sets among other detail parts.
http://pdhobbyshop.com/show_pr...facturer=P%26amp%3BD
http://pdhobbyshop.com/show_pr...facturer=P%26amp%3BD
quote:Good enough for the 1950's, good enough for nostalgia. Way off the mark for a full scale model.
Rusty
Uhhh, not so fast... The Lionel F-3 is correct; EMD got it wrong!
CentralFan1976 - Like many 3 railers (me included a few years back), you and many others need to learn the difference between a PW Lionel F3 design and a Scale F3 design.
The manufacturers make it confusing. MTH offers an f3 and they call it scale something but it is not a scale F3. For most 3railers, you need to distinguish between a Lionel PW F3 design which is similar in size to a scale F3 and produced under different names by Lionel, MTH, and Williams.
The engine you pictured is a Williams interpretation of a post war Lionel F3, not a scale F3.
I have to go out today, but you can start by seeing if you can tell the difference between these two engines.
Now there are 3 areas that you need to look at.
1. The fans on the roof.
2. The chicken wire that F3's are noted for.
3. Most importantly between Lionel PW style and scale F3 style are the top line of grills. Lionel style has a combination of louvers and grills which is WRONG. Note, 3 resides inside 2. (My drawing skills aren't great.)
Most
What you should do is go to a Hobby Shop and have someone allow you to see the difference between a scale modeled F3 and a Lionel PW styled F3. After you can tell that difference, then you can get into the F2,3,5,7,9 differences. It gets easy after a while, but you have to start with the Lionel - Scale difference.
The manufacturers make it confusing. MTH offers an f3 and they call it scale something but it is not a scale F3. For most 3railers, you need to distinguish between a Lionel PW F3 design which is similar in size to a scale F3 and produced under different names by Lionel, MTH, and Williams.
The engine you pictured is a Williams interpretation of a post war Lionel F3, not a scale F3.
I have to go out today, but you can start by seeing if you can tell the difference between these two engines.
Now there are 3 areas that you need to look at.
1. The fans on the roof.
2. The chicken wire that F3's are noted for.
3. Most importantly between Lionel PW style and scale F3 style are the top line of grills. Lionel style has a combination of louvers and grills which is WRONG. Note, 3 resides inside 2. (My drawing skills aren't great.)
Most
What you should do is go to a Hobby Shop and have someone allow you to see the difference between a scale modeled F3 and a Lionel PW styled F3. After you can tell that difference, then you can get into the F2,3,5,7,9 differences. It gets easy after a while, but you have to start with the Lionel - Scale difference.
This is how I tell the difference between a F3 and a F7. I read the flap on the end of the box.
And of course there is always the wolf in sheep's clothing example.
The Western Maryland rostered one A-B-A F3 (along with a relatively large fleet of F7's). About a year after taking delivery it went back for a conversion to an F7 (all internal) while retaining the F3 externals. BTW, the F7 DB fan was placed under the original roof screening with what appears to be a sheet metal frame welded under the rest of the screening.
Poppyl
The Western Maryland rostered one A-B-A F3 (along with a relatively large fleet of F7's). About a year after taking delivery it went back for a conversion to an F7 (all internal) while retaining the F3 externals. BTW, the F7 DB fan was placed under the original roof screening with what appears to be a sheet metal frame welded under the rest of the screening.
Poppyl
quote:the F7 DB fan was placed under the original roof screening with what appears to be a sheet metal frame welded under the rest of the screening
Now that is amazing. They must have really appreciated their F3, or it was a cost saving move. I wonder which.
quote:Originally posted by gftiv:
This is how I tell the difference between a F3 and a F7. I read the flap on the end of the box.
The trouble is, EMD never shipped locomotives in boxes!
Rusty
quote:I read the flap on the end of the box.
In a hobby shop that I know of, they have on display what is clearly an A-B-A F3 set made by MTH but even the box it came it says its a F7. They are identical
in every way to Lionel post war F3's. I pointed out that they were F3's, NOT F7's as stated on the display tag. But they stick with it because the BOX says F7.
Rob
quote:Originally posted by marker:quote:the F7 DB fan was placed under the original roof screening with what appears to be a sheet metal frame welded under the rest of the screening
Now that is amazing. They must have really appreciated their F3, or it was a cost saving move. I wonder which.
I'd say "cost saving" since they never purchased another F3 and instead went with F7's. Cheaper to modify the existing units rather than trade-in and buy new. Also, WM may have gotten a good deal from EMD since they were in the process of procuring a bunch of F7's. Standardization around the F7 probably brought other operational and maintenance economies, too.
Needless to say, when one of the mfgs. present a WM F3, I run the other way fast.
Poppyl
quote:Originally posted by poppyl:quote:Originally posted by marker:quote:the F7 DB fan was placed under the original roof screening with what appears to be a sheet metal frame welded under the rest of the screening
Now that is amazing. They must have really appreciated their F3, or it was a cost saving move. I wonder which.
I'd say "cost saving" since they never purchased another F3 and instead went with F7's. Cheaper to modify the existing units rather than trade-in and buy new. Also, WM may have gotten a good deal from EMD since they were in the process of procuring a bunch of F7's. Standardization around the F7 probably brought other operational and maintenance economies, too.
Poppyl
Seems the could've gotten a new d/b hatch assembly from EMD also. But then, they'd be paying an EMD price for it!
Rusty
Good point, Rusty.
Actually, I have no idea who put the frame under the screening -- EMD or someone in the WM shops.
But I'm sure that the WM wasn't interested in dumping too much money into these units just a year after their delivery -- focusing instead on the operational improvements represented by the F7 and not worrying about the cosmetic diffrerences.
Poppyl
Actually, I have no idea who put the frame under the screening -- EMD or someone in the WM shops.
But I'm sure that the WM wasn't interested in dumping too much money into these units just a year after their delivery -- focusing instead on the operational improvements represented by the F7 and not worrying about the cosmetic diffrerences.
Poppyl
Well, it seemed like a simple question, didn't it, OG Fan? As you can see,you're pretty safe in looking for wire covering the radiator areas on F3's and stainless steel on F7's. Many have become passionate about the cab and booster units of the 1950's, because for me and for others my age, they were the first-line locomotives, steam having been either gone of fading fast. So, to us of a certain age, more precise identification makes more difference.
Once the locomotives went to work, it was the privilege of the owning railroad to do to them whatever their respective Mechanical Department wished. There was wide variance in policies of different railroads.
Railroads like the Burlington did not heavily modify their diesels. They just maintained them well, and made only changes that actually increased reliability when an improved component became available. Thus, they did not make many carbody changes, and you can pretty well identify their cab units. (To make it even easier, they added an etched stainless steel plate to many of them, leaving no doubt as to the EMD model designation.)
At the other end of the spectrum is Santa Fe, which started adding F7 components to its passenger rednose F3's almost as soon as the F7 was available. First came larger traction motors and automatic transition, and then the carbodies began to have the chicken wire in the radiator area replaced by Farr stainless steel grilles. When there was a dynamic brake fire on an F3, the twin-slot dynamic brake fan was replaced by a round fan and higher-capcity F7 dynamic brake. So, in the ATSF case, knowing the engine number is the best method of identification.
On roads like Missouri Pacific, which bought both late-model F3's and early model F7's without dynamic brakes, there's no dynamic brake fan and the carbodies look the same
, so you just have to know the roster. I think this situation existed on Atlantic Coast Line, too. (Of course, if you had been able to go inside the cab and engine room, you could have known for sure, as there were some engine room details that differed, the ICC "blue card" would have stated the model number, and the F3 would have probably identified transition points on the ammeter, but not the F7. For real confusion Union Pacific and Southern Pacific eeach sent fleets of F3's to EMD for upgrading to F9 performance. Some of these had chicken wire, and others had stainless steel, and some were released from EMD as F9m's with the chicken wire still intact.
On the Rock Island, there was so much carbody modification, that you couldn't guess right unless you actually knew.
You have been given information overload if you expected a simple answer It's safe to stay basic if you are more interested in running your O gauge trains than in prototype locomotive study.
Once the locomotives went to work, it was the privilege of the owning railroad to do to them whatever their respective Mechanical Department wished. There was wide variance in policies of different railroads.
Railroads like the Burlington did not heavily modify their diesels. They just maintained them well, and made only changes that actually increased reliability when an improved component became available. Thus, they did not make many carbody changes, and you can pretty well identify their cab units. (To make it even easier, they added an etched stainless steel plate to many of them, leaving no doubt as to the EMD model designation.)
At the other end of the spectrum is Santa Fe, which started adding F7 components to its passenger rednose F3's almost as soon as the F7 was available. First came larger traction motors and automatic transition, and then the carbodies began to have the chicken wire in the radiator area replaced by Farr stainless steel grilles. When there was a dynamic brake fire on an F3, the twin-slot dynamic brake fan was replaced by a round fan and higher-capcity F7 dynamic brake. So, in the ATSF case, knowing the engine number is the best method of identification.
On roads like Missouri Pacific, which bought both late-model F3's and early model F7's without dynamic brakes, there's no dynamic brake fan and the carbodies look the same
, so you just have to know the roster. I think this situation existed on Atlantic Coast Line, too. (Of course, if you had been able to go inside the cab and engine room, you could have known for sure, as there were some engine room details that differed, the ICC "blue card" would have stated the model number, and the F3 would have probably identified transition points on the ammeter, but not the F7. For real confusion Union Pacific and Southern Pacific eeach sent fleets of F3's to EMD for upgrading to F9 performance. Some of these had chicken wire, and others had stainless steel, and some were released from EMD as F9m's with the chicken wire still intact.On the Rock Island, there was so much carbody modification, that you couldn't guess right unless you actually knew.
You have been given information overload if you expected a simple answer
It's safe to stay basic if you are more interested in running your O gauge trains than in prototype locomotive study.
Hmm,
So, judging by Jim Fuhrman's chart, the old Lionel F would have been a reasonably accurate model (by standards of the day) of an "F3 phase 3" if the top panel had been all chicken wire, or of an "F3 phase 4" if the top panel had been all grille. And aside from the smooth pilot.
Given that the change-over from chicken wire to the horizontal grille in the top panel was taking place in 1948 (same time Lionel was developing their F3), I wonder if the Lionel people didn't just "split the difference," not knowing what configuration EMD would eventually settle on. Of course, Lionel didn't waste money fixing the tooling later!
I wonder if the smooth Lionel pilot was intended to make their F look a little more like an E? The E seems to have been the more common passenger loco in real life.
So, judging by Jim Fuhrman's chart, the old Lionel F would have been a reasonably accurate model (by standards of the day) of an "F3 phase 3" if the top panel had been all chicken wire, or of an "F3 phase 4" if the top panel had been all grille. And aside from the smooth pilot.
Given that the change-over from chicken wire to the horizontal grille in the top panel was taking place in 1948 (same time Lionel was developing their F3), I wonder if the Lionel people didn't just "split the difference," not knowing what configuration EMD would eventually settle on. Of course, Lionel didn't waste money fixing the tooling later!
I wonder if the smooth Lionel pilot was intended to make their F look a little more like an E? The E seems to have been the more common passenger loco in real life.
Odd. the Lionel/WBB/RK units were "high rail" for the early 1950's, not now.
Ok, Refresh my memory...
I remember an article in Model Railroader, back in the day, about modeling the NYC F3s and F7s, and there being something in there about the F3s early F7s came with passenger pilots, with one type of grill, and when the NYC changed their spec for additional F7s, they came with the other.
They were either horizontal or vertical grills (Farr). Which came first, the vertical Farr-type or the horizontal?
Thanks,
Mario
I remember an article in Model Railroader, back in the day, about modeling the NYC F3s and F7s, and there being something in there about the F3s early F7s came with passenger pilots, with one type of grill, and when the NYC changed their spec for additional F7s, they came with the other.
They were either horizontal or vertical grills (Farr). Which came first, the vertical Farr-type or the horizontal?
Thanks,
Mario
quote:Originally posted by CentralFan1976:
They were either horizontal or vertical grills (Farr). Which came first, the vertical Farr-type or the horizontal?
Thanks,
Mario
The horizontal grill came first and was fabricated, the vertical grill came later and was stamped.
Rusty
The F5:
Somewhere there was a letter by the PRR concerning an "F5". But there was not an "official" EMD "F5", right?
Somewhere there was a letter by the PRR concerning an "F5". But there was not an "official" EMD "F5", right?
Now hy did EMD equip the D/B on the 3 with the slits for coolong, instead of a fan as in the later units?
quote:Originally posted by DominicMazoch:
Now hy did EMD equip the D/B on the 3 with the slits for coolong, instead of a fan as in the later units?
Evolution. Also, standardization of parts with the other four cooling fans. Plus, I'm sure the pancake fan was better suited than the squirrle-cage blower used in the early F3's d/b hatch.
Rusty
Number 90:
Thanks, Tom, for that interesting information.
Greetings to Amarillo, high up on the high plains - lots of railroading heritage there.
Thanks, Tom, for that interesting information.
Greetings to Amarillo, high up on the high plains - lots of railroading heritage there.
quote:Originally posted by SB..:
Wikipedia: There are no easily identifiable differences between late F3 production and early F7 production; the major differences were all internal electrical system changes. However, no F7 had the “chicken wire” grilles of most F3s.
Lots of F3's had the near flush-mount fans on top.
Wikipedia: F3 Phase II (late)
Built from December 1947. Roof radiator fans change to low, pan-topped items.
Here's a photo of a late production F3,
Lehigh valley had both F3's and F7's. Here you can clearly see the chicken wire slots for the dynamic brake but also the low fans and grills typical of an F7.
Martin Z
Yes, but dynamic brake slits are also found on F2 & F5.
So it seems the only reliable tells are specifically for the F3 & F2. If it has chicken-wire side between 2 port-holes, it's definitely an F3. If it has 3 port-holes and tiny FT number-boards, it's definitely an F2. If it doesn't have any of those, then there is no external way to be certain (as many F7+ pars were retro-fitted onto older models).
So it seems the only reliable tells are specifically for the F3 & F2. If it has chicken-wire side between 2 port-holes, it's definitely an F3. If it has 3 port-holes and tiny FT number-boards, it's definitely an F2. If it doesn't have any of those, then there is no external way to be certain (as many F7+ pars were retro-fitted onto older models).
quote:Originally posted by SB..:
Yes, but dynamic brake slits are also found on F2 & F5.
So it seems the only reliable tells are specifically for the F3 & F2. If it has chicken-wire side between 2 port-holes, it's definitely an F3. If it has 3 port-holes and tiny FT number-boards, it's definitely an F2. If it doesn't have any of those, then there is no external way to be certain (as many F7+ pars were retro-fitted onto older models).
Unless the railroad shops changed the side panels and the numberboards from say, the results of a collision.
The only definative answer is there is no definative answer.
Rusty
