I use 7.5 amp AGC glass fast blow.. between Z1000 and track feed. 5 and 6 engine all power with 40 cars in tow no problem.

Willygee,  Since a lash-up, is it DCS or Legacy? Where is fuse?

Wally

10 amp fast-blow fuse, in the Hot wire between the transformer output and the red TIU channel input terminal.

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Cho Cho Wally posted:

Willygee,  Since a lash-up, is it DCS or Legacy? Where is fuse?

Wally

DCS..and i run in passive so Z1000 out to in line fuse to track feed direct. I use fixed one out from tiu for 3rail loop and fixed 2 for 2 rail loop. Each has its own Z1000 and 7.5amp fuse.They are independent of each other. FWI..non of my TIU inputs are used.

Looking at the title of this thread, I think you are correct in looking for a breaker.  Given that derailments usually cause a short, you'll spend a fortune on fuses.  Since I don't use smoke, I use 5 amp breakers on the lines that don't normally run more than 2 engines, and 7.5 on the lines that often run more.

Ok guys...…….I'm confused here. Don't the modern transformers such as the Z4000 and Z1000 already have fast-acting circuit protection built-in? 

John

yes

Not the Z1000, it's just an ancient thermal breaker.  The Z-4000 has good breakers...

The Z1000 circuit breakers function well with some over current conditions but are too slow for a direct short or a full current dump..example 6 engines pulling 40 cars all is well..turn on all smoke units and it will trip the breaker. My understanding is the Lionel PH 180 have excellent electronic breaker specs for our train needs.

I use one from DCC Specaltys  PSX1-AC  its an electronic breaker that you can set with jumpers for several differant amperages as well as manual or automatic reset. got mine at Tony's train exchange. i used it for a long time on my old Lionel ZW and know with my bricks. very fast and worth the $70 to protect all your hi end stuff.

The PH180 breaker is an excellent design.  It actually has a two-stage circuit, for a gradual overload, it'll give you a short delay before tripping, but for a direct short, it trips in a flash.  The delayed trip is useful for a startup load that ramps up and might slightly exceed the current limit but doesn't last.

It can't be too expensive a circuit, or Lionel wouldn't include it in the PH-180.  It's a pity someone doesn't produce it as a stand alone, maybe even in kit form (hint to Adrian, GRJ, Stan, etc)

I do have one problem with the PH-180:  it trips to rapidly, like when a wheel flange brushes a hot rail going through a switch.

I'm not sure what is in the newer PH-180 production as Lionel had stated they had to redesign it because of a lost design.  However, the older model circuit has been posted many times.  Here it is again.

In the schematic, both U1b and U1c are amplifying the current sense signal.  U1c, the "overload" detector, has a gain of 148, but it is slowed down by the resistor and capacitor on its output.  The time constant (RxC) is 2.6 seconds.  Multiple short hits to this RC combination would charge it up until it trips the relay latch.

U1b has a gain of 37, which means it requires 4 times as much current, but it acts instantaneously for "dead short" situations.

Obviously, this circuit could be "tweaked" to modify the behavior.

Lost design?  Humbug!  Probably related to change in Chinese suppliers.

Looking at the schematic, it appears that most of the wiring is for the breaker alone.

If that breaker were available in kit form such as rtr produced with Adrian & GRJ help, I'd get 10, one for each of my 6 TIU circuits and the remainder for accessory and switch circuits.

If I were going to reproduce something like this, it would have a lot less parts and be uP based.  It would be tons cheaper to build something that didn't have that many parts.

So after reading all this, I want to put a 10amp fast blow fuse in between the TIU and Power source, this will protect my TIU and engines? Please correct me if I am wrong. 

Yep, that would do it.  Truthfully, for fast blowing fuses, you can probably even "fudge" it a little and use a 12A one.

Interesting read from Bussmann:

http://www1.cooperbussmann.com...yAskedQuestions.html

GRJ, what means "uP based"?  Why would Lionel use more parts than necessary to get same result?

RJR posted:

GRJ, what means "uP based"?  Why would Lionel use more parts than necessary to get same result?

Clearly, that's a question for Lionel.  Remember, the PH180 was designed quite a long time ago, and if there was an analog designer that felt more comfortable designing it the way it appears, that's probably why it's like that.  However, that's just speculation on my part.  I have no idea what's in the new PH180, maybe someone with a new one can take it apart and see.

GRJ, I have a new one around here somewhere. If I can find it and open it up, I'll take some pics and post them here. I have a feeling I don't have the proper tool for the screws holding it together though?

RJR,  uP is micro processor, like the arduino (or it's processor chip), PIC chips, etc. and there are many more out there.

You will probably need a triangular screwdriver to take it apart.  I have a bunch of the old ones, so I didn't feel the need to buy a new one.

Ive got a lead on a pair of used 180's . How can i tell the difference between gen 2 and the older ones?

Can't say how to tell the difference, the obvious difference will the the date of manufacture.  If it's 2017 or 2018, they're the new ones.

Need for protection for Z4000 and ZWL since they both have built-in breaker protection? Using DCS and Legacy.

Wally

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You will probably need a triangular screwdriver to take it apart.  I have a bunch of the old ones, so I didn't feel the need to buy a new one.

I was still a short on them when they ran out. I just can't remember where I put the new ones...they're here somewhere? The price has gone up quite a bit now, good thing I got these early on when they first came back out. That was spring/early summer 2017, IIRC, plenty of time to get buried by other stuff around here. 

Should I be using a fast blow fuse in a Legacy install with CW-80 power supply's?

You should. 

Not to hijack this thread, but would this 10A breakers protect my engines? Or should I move it between the Z4000 and the TIU?

I’m going to be installing a 15a circuit breaker on my TIU sometime next weekend... my layout usually draws around 10 amps at one time (the max has been 18 at once ) under normal operation and I really only need it for when a short happens.  I don’t want to use a fuse because then every time I have a short I will need to replace the fuse, vs with a circuit breaker I can just flip the switch.  Also, I do know that you’re not supposed to be running more than 10 amps out of the TIU, so I have my layout split on two channels so there’s isn’t an issue there. 

Breakers should be between transformer & TIU, to protect the TIU as well as the layout wiring.  Actually, the breakers do not provide much protection to engines, because shorts on a layout are upstream of the engines, so they don't cause high current flows through the engine circuits.  What can damage engine circuits is the surging that occurs when there is a "sparking" short, and no breaker protects against that---TVSs are the protection for surges.

Evan, I would recommend a 10 amp max.  Non-electronic breakers, which most of those available are, and fuses do not open immediately, but only after the current flow heats their innards. 

Evan Cihlar posted:

I’m going to be installing a 15a circuit breaker on my TIU sometime next weekend... my layout usually draws around 10 amps at one time (the max has been 18 at once ) under normal operation and I really only need it for when a short happens.  I don’t want to use a fuse because then every time I have a short I will need to replace the fuse, vs with a circuit breaker I can just flip the switch.  Also, I do know that you’re not supposed to be running more than 10 amps out of the TIU, so I have my layout split on two channels so there’s isn’t an issue there. 

A 15A breaker, unless it's a very fast electronic breaker, will be perfectly protected by the internal 20A fast blow fuse in the TIU.  I hasten to add, this is NOT how it should work! 

You should have protection on EACH of the TIU channels, with one large breaker, a single channel can still draw excessive power and you won't like the results.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Evan Cihlar posted:

I’m going to be installing a 15a circuit breaker on my TIU sometime next weekend... my layout usually draws around 10 amps at one time (the max has been 18 at once ) under normal operation and I really only need it for when a short happens.  I don’t want to use a fuse because then every time I have a short I will need to replace the fuse, vs with a circuit breaker I can just flip the switch.  Also, I do know that you’re not supposed to be running more than 10 amps out of the TIU, so I have my layout split on two channels so there’s isn’t an issue there. 

A 15A breaker, unless it's a very fast electronic breaker, will be perfectly protected by the internal 20A fast blow fuse in the TIU.  I hasten to add, this is NOT how it should work! 

You should have protection on EACH of the TIU channels, with one large breaker, a single channel can still draw excessive power and you won't like the results.

I was already planning on putting them on all of the channels.

Evan, a 15 amp thermal breaker is WAY too high a rating for an individual TIU channel, that was my whole point!

mike g. posted:

Not to hijack this thread, but would this 10A breakers protect my engines? Or should I move it between the Z4000 and the TIU?

I don't know how fast the Z4000 breakers are, but I had these breakers between a PH180 brick and the TIU and the breakers on the PH180 always opened first.  

The PH-180 breakers are extremely fast, faster than a Z4000.  I have never had an external breaker, even 5 amp, open before the breakers in the PH-180 feeding it.

The electronic breaker on the PH180 should always trip before a thermal breaker.  If for some reason that doesn't happen, it's likely the PH180 breaker has a problem.

I say this everytime this subject comes up here but  here I go again.  Spend the money, protect your 1000-2000 engines and go with a PSX1-AC    I wouldn't trust my engines to any short circuit protection MTH or Lionel uses. Specially not to any fast acting fuse.