It appears the "City of Brotherly Love" is going after the Amtrak Engineer Brandon Bostian even though the NTSB couldn't find a definitive reason for the crash. It looks like a lot of "Missy Misdemeanor" charges are being filed. How will the prosecutors make them stick will beforth coming from the courts.
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prrhorseshoecurve posted:It appears the "City of Brotherly Love" is going after the Amtrak Engineer Bosnian even though the NTSB couldn't find a definitive reason for the crash. It looks like a lot of "Missy Misdemeanor" charges are being filed. How will the prosecutors make them stick will beforth coming from the courts.
A few points:
A) His name is Brandon Bostian, and he is still on leave of absence from Amtrak. You might want to edit your title.
B) Apparently the relatives of those killed and injured, petitioned the court, that then instructed the prosecutors to file charges. The Attorney general of the State of Pennsylvania "took the appropriate action", prior to the statute of limitations expiration.
Definitely more than misdemeanor charges... thought I read about involuntary manslaughter and a felony charge.
Seems like lots of legal posturing more than anything else. And that's sad -- but not surprising in this day and age. There has reportedly been no evidence to support criminal charges, and I thought Amtrak has already paid 265M in damages.
I read an article that quoted a lawyer of one of the victim's family members as saying this is moment of justice to bring Bostian to task for what he did to the families.
Not sure I buy into that line of thinking when there is no evidence to support Bostian acted with any criminal intent, etc...
Why can't people conclude that this was one TERRIBLE ACCIDENT, and sometimes awful things happen to good people? Charging the engineer with criminal charges 7 hours before the statute of limitations was set to expire seems like somebody wanted to keep a door open as a last-ditch effort to prosecute the engineer. But it's not gonna bring any of the 8 victims back to life. Nobody wins in these cases except the lawyers collecting their legal fees... Which is precisely why these criminal charges have absolutely no merit.
David
Good to hear. Eight people killed and many more hurt-it should be tried in court before a jury. Not by the bureaucrats.
jim pastorius posted:Good to hear. Eight people killed and many more hurt-it should be tried in court before a jury. Not by the bureaucrats.
Bet you'd sing a different tune if you had accidentally derailed a train. This guy wasn't on drugs, wasn't drunk, wasn't texting or talking on the phone, and there's no evidence to say that he acted maliciously or was deliberately negligent. Was it a tragedy? Yes. Do I feel for the victims' families? Yes. Do I think this was a criminal act? Absolutely not.
mlavender480 posted:jim pastorius posted:Good to hear. Eight people killed and many more hurt-it should be tried in court before a jury. Not by the bureaucrats.
Bet you'd sing a different tune if you had accidentally derailed a train. This guy wasn't on drugs, wasn't drunk, wasn't texting or talking on the phone, and there's no evidence to say that he acted maliciously or was deliberately negligent. Was it a tragedy? Yes. Do I feel for the victims' families? Yes. Do I think this was a criminal act? Absolutely not.
Except,,,,,,according to operating rules, when he heard over his radio, that the train ahead of him, near him, had reportedly declared an "EMERGENCY, EMERGENCY, EMERGENCY", he did NOT STOP HIS OWN TRAIN. According to operating rules, any train that declares an "EMERGENCY" over the radio, any and all other trains within hearing of such a radio transmission are required to bring their own train to a safe & complete stop.
it's all about the money and what legal folks tell the family members. As Deep Throat said in All The President's Men == "Follow the money."
Hot Water posted:mlavender480 posted:jim pastorius posted:Good to hear. Eight people killed and many more hurt-it should be tried in court before a jury. Not by the bureaucrats.
Bet you'd sing a different tune if you had accidentally derailed a train. This guy wasn't on drugs, wasn't drunk, wasn't texting or talking on the phone, and there's no evidence to say that he acted maliciously or was deliberately negligent. Was it a tragedy? Yes. Do I feel for the victims' families? Yes. Do I think this was a criminal act? Absolutely not.
Except,,,,,,according to operating rules, when he heard over his radio, that the train ahead of him, near him, had reportedly declared an "EMERGENCY, EMERGENCY, EMERGENCY", he did NOT STOP HIS OWN TRAIN. According to operating rules, any train that declares an "EMERGENCY" over the radio, any and all other trains within hearing of such a radio transmission are required to bring their own train to a safe & complete stop.
But according to the full radio transcript that covered the 6 minutes of time before Amtrak 188 derailed, an emergency as you described was never noted or declared. In addition to the full transcript text itself, here's a paragraph from the same article I read on this matter noting no emergency:
At no point did Parrish [SEPTA engineer] relay to the dispatcher that he was facing an emergency situation. During his interview with the NTSB, he said he told Joseph Curran [dispatcher] no one was hurt and after Curran asked him again if he needed assistance he said, “OK, you can send assistance.” Parrish recalled Amtrak 188 passing his train and said nothing seemed out of the ordinary.
If you're interested in the full 6-minute transcript, click HERE and scroll to the bottom of the article.
David
Here is the NTSB report https://www.ntsb.gov/investiga.../Reports/RAR1602.pdf
Brendan
Going twice as fast as the posted speed limit is negligence-pure and simple. Let a jury decide not the RR bureaucrats.
John Pignatelli JR. posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:I think he should be taken out and executed immediately for such a transgression!
Yes and those punks chucking rocks at the trains after they pass the north philly station.
Except I believe GRJ was talking about the comment above his about the misspelling of the man's name not the actual accident.
jim pastorius posted:Going twice as fast as the posted speed limit is negligence-pure and simple. Let a jury decide not the RR bureaucrats.
Or, a loss of situational awareness. You're a little quick to judge without knowing the facts, but given your past posts I'm not surprised.
In my opinion, the Engineer was absolutely, positively totally and completely GUILTY of being HUMAN. After reading the NTSB report, I don't feel that Criminal charges are warranted. That it was a Terrible Tragedy, is definite, a Crime, not in my opinion. I can understand, the sense of loss of the families, I had a Wonderful Aunt who was Loved by the entire family, mis-diagnosed as Ulcers, that turned out to be Stomach Cancer. She was only 33 years old, when she died, and what she went through was indescribable, our whole family mourned her loss, and still miss her very much decades later, but not one ever suggested that the Doctor who made the mistake in her diagnosis should be charged criminally. It was a human MISTAKE, that I am sure He regrets every day of his life, but should he have gone to prison for that mistake? NO, he will be harder on himself than a jury ever could be, and his future contributions to his patients and society would serve a greater good than his spending time in a cell. Brandon Bostian may not contribute as much to society as a doctor, but does he have Children, Grand Children, Nephews, Nieces, possibly a school or little league team he coaches, that would lose, because of him being sent to prison?
If this had been a deliberate act, or caused by the use of drugs or alcohol, I would feel differently, but in my opinion, society will not benefit, and may be affected negatively by Bostian's going to prison.
A Tragedy without any doubt, a Crime, not in my Opinion,
Doug
I'm neither an engineer or liability law expert nor a jury but the question remains. When does an accident become negligence?
Years ago a trucker in my area was rested and in compliance with their HOS laws when he fell asleep and caused a fatality. He was convicted of manslaughter the pretext that he was responsible for the safe control of his vehicle and should have recognized that he was becoming too tired to drive.
What standard should the operator of a rail vehicle (OR an airliner) be held to?
jim pastorius posted:Going twice as fast as the posted speed limit is negligence-pure and simple. Let a jury decide not the RR bureaucrats.
Yep, a jury of people who have no experience or knowledge of the railroad would be much more qualified to determine something like this, than the railroads, who can be very unforgiving of mistakes, or the NTSB, who has no dog in the fight, and whose mission is to prevent future similar incidents . I am also sure that jury wouldn't be swayed by lawyers either. 
In MY OPINION, after reading the NTSB report, it was a Horrible Tragedy, but doesn't warrant Criminal charges. If it Does go to trial, I just HOPE that Bostian, gets a Fair and Open Minded jury.
Doug
In spite of empathy for this Engineer, this was absolutely gross negligence. A professional Locomotive Engineer is required to be aware of the train's location and upcoming restrictions. Getting confused or distracted or missing a block signal indication are all indicators that the train has to immediately be slowed or stopped until the Engineer is certain that it can continue safely.
Let the court decide if this gross negligence is criminal, or merely being human.
Yep, a jury of people who have no experience or knowledge of the railroad would be much more qualified to determine something like this, than the railroads, who can be very unforgiving of mistakes, or the NTSB, who has no dog in the fight, and whose mission is to prevent future similar incidents . I am also sure that jury wouldn't be swayed by lawyers either.
It's up to the lawyers to give the people enough information to make a proper determination.
But part of this is Amtrak's fault. This was one area of the NEC which did not have PTC installed.
Jim, you've done it again. It must be great to be so knowledgeable so that you can be judgemental about matters; based upon, what you no doubt consider to be, the "crooked media." Perhaps you are privy to some "alternative facts" ? Should we simply "lock him up?"
Dominic Mazoch posted:But part of this is Amtrak's fault. This was one area of the NEC which did not have PTC installed.
NOT Amtrak's "fault". At that small area of the Northeast Corridor, the PTC was not yet functional because the FRA and the FCC were "feuding" over allowable frequencies to be used for the GPS transmissions of the PTC system.
Rule292 posted:I'm neither an engineer or liability law expert...
I’ve handled liability determinations and arbitrations for an insurance carrier for 15 years this July, and “being human” is not an argument you can make.
Liability is based on the following:
So from this measurement, YES, there is a liability exposure on the part of the engineer. While this is a civil liability issue, I’m not 100% sure what criminal proceedings would be appropriate as that varies wildly from one jurisdiction to another.
I’m not the least surprised that some manner of proceedings are going forth. I would have expected this.
Like it or not, we’re in a culture where “[bleep] happens” is not a reaction to a family member’s death that can be expected to happen ever again. When someone dies, SOMEONE is going to pay for that, one way or another because nothing, “just happens” in the mindset of society today (with the exception of nature-based phenomenon, and even then, people will try to pin that on humans if they can).
It would be interesting to have someone post the actual criminal complaint that was filed. It would have the allegations that the prosecutor would need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
wb47 posted:It would be interesting to have someone post the actual criminal complaint that was filed. It would have the allegations that the prosecutor would need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
So you want to confuse this entire thread with actual facts??? 
PTC or no PTC, the Engineer was required to pay attention, be aware of his location and the signal indication displayed at the entrance to the block in which the train was running, as well as any permanent or temporary restrictions -- for speed, track gangs, etc. -- that his train was approaching. If he was not aware of all of that, due to distraction or uncertainty, then operating rules required him to take the safe course, which would have meant stopping or slowing the train (depending on the reason he was not aware of the upcoming curve speed restriction). Yes, the lack of PTC was a contributing factor, but no, it did not cause the accident. Compliance with existing operating rules would have prevented the accident with or without PTC, and that narrows the root cause down to the actions of one person. Thousands of other Engineers on Amtrak trains passed that location without PTC and properly controlled the speed. One did not.
It really is that basic. Whether that is criminal or not is of no interest to the NTSB. They merely investigate accidents, assess the cause, and recommend actions which could prevent or reduce the likelihood of similar accidents reoccurring in the future. It is up to the District Attorney and the Defense Attorney to present competent witnesses who can clearly communicate to a jury what the law, and the operating rules, require, present all pertinent facts surrounding operation of this train, and let the jury decide whether the law was or was not violated.
NTSB does not have enforcement or judicial authority. So, when you see an NTSB report, know that you are only looking at an official statement as to cause, and a recommendation (not a mandate) for corrective action.
Wasn't this train going like 106 mph in a 50 mph zone? I have a hard time talking my way out of a 70mph ticket in a 65 mph zone, plus nobody died.
If this case goes to court he will pick a trial by judge not by jury, and be decided by law not feelings.
aussteve posted:Wasn't this train going like 106 mph in a 50 mph zone? I have a hard time talking my way out of a 70mph ticket in a 65 mph zone, plus nobody died.
The curve was 50MPH. Followed by a 110MPH straightaway. In the reported 'loss of situational awareness' brought on for whatever reason, he thought he had already passed that curve.
Until it showed up in his headlights.
---PCJ
aussteve posted:Wasn't this train going like 106 mph in a 50 mph zone? I have a hard time talking my way out of a 70mph ticket in a 65 mph zone, plus nobody died.
What are you talking about? Five people died. So the engineer was way over the speed limit and people, including a US Naval Academy midshipman, who aspired to be a Navy SEAL, paid the price. I think the engineer should be held responsible.
ChessieMD posted:aussteve posted:Wasn't this train going like 106 mph in a 50 mph zone? I have a hard time talking my way out of a 70mph ticket in a 65 mph zone, plus nobody died.
What are you talking about? Five people died. So the engineer was way over the speed limit and people, including a US Naval Academy midshipman, who aspired to be a Navy SEAL, paid the price. I think the engineer should be held responsible.
No, he meant in his own speeding case nobody died and he couldn't talk himself out of that. He wasn't saying nobody died in the train crash.
ChessieMD posted:aussteve posted:Wasn't this train going like 106 mph in a 50 mph zone? I have a hard time talking my way out of a 70mph ticket in a 65 mph zone, plus nobody died.
What are you talking about? Five people died. So the engineer was way over the speed limit and people, including a US Naval Academy midshipman, who aspired to be a Navy SEAL, paid the price. I think the engineer should be held responsible.
Yes I was talking about me getting a driving ticket. I don't drive full scale Amtrak trains, and never heard of a train engineer getting a speeding ticket from a trooper. I would still rate this a lot higher than negligence.
aussteve posted:ChessieMD posted:aussteve posted:Wasn't this train going like 106 mph in a 50 mph zone? I have a hard time talking my way out of a 70mph ticket in a 65 mph zone, plus nobody died.
What are you talking about? Five people died. So the engineer was way over the speed limit and people, including a US Naval Academy midshipman, who aspired to be a Navy SEAL, paid the price. I think the engineer should be held responsible.
Yes I was talking about me getting a driving ticket. I don't drive full scale Amtrak trains, and never heard of a train engineer getting a speeding ticket from a trooper.
Believe it or not, it has happened. Also, a locomotive Engineer can indeed be "called on the carpet" for speeding, by his supervision, upon checking the event recorder tapes. Stranger things have happened in the railroad business.
I would still rate this a lot higher than negligence.
Hot Water posted:Yes I was talking about me getting a driving ticket. I don't drive full scale Amtrak trains, and never heard of a train engineer getting a speeding ticket from a trooper.Believe it or not, it has happened.
I don't doubt your experience, but a law enforcement officer holds zero jurisdiction over a railroad line. Any ticket they write will be worthless.
Doesn't mean some idiot cop wouldn't try it. I once saw a Florida highway patrolman write a ticket to a FEC hogger for blocking a grade crossing during a switching move for maybe 5 minutes. The hogger, getting ready to leave, buttoned up in the cab, ripped up the ticket and tossed it out the window before highballing to Miami. I laughed long and hard, as did the other train fans standing there. The patrolman couldn't do anything about it as he knew the train would soon leave him in the dust.
p51 posted:Hot Water posted:Yes I was talking about me getting a driving ticket. I don't drive full scale Amtrak trains, and never heard of a train engineer getting a speeding ticket from a trooper.Believe it or not, it has happened.
I don't doubt your experience, but a law enforcement officer holds zero jurisdiction over a railroad line. Any ticket they write will be worthless.
Well, again you are debating a subject that you are not fully knowledgeable in. If a certain municipality has a speed restriction through that town, which the railroad has already legally agreed to, then a police officer with a certified & calibrated radar gun, can issue a speeding ticket to the railroad. Obviously he would NOT be able to issue it to that specific Engineer, but it surely would come back to that Engineer for disciplinary action.
Along the same lines of an auto vs. train collision, the local law enforcement officer, requested the driver's license from my buddy, the Engineer involved. He refused to show it to the officer, but did provide his FRA Engineer's "ticket". The officer continued to demand that his automobile driver's license be surrendered. My quick thinking buddy told the officer, "I didn't hit this idiot with my CAR, I hit him with the train locomotive. If I give you my automobile driver's license, my automobile insurance will go up, because YOU will report the 'accident', which wasn't my fault anyway!". My buddy then turned and walked away, climbed back up on the lead diesel unit, and radioed the Dispatcher again, requesting a Special Agent be sent to deal with the "local yokel". The railroad Special Agent quickly explained the "facts" to the officer!
Number 90 posted:PTC or no PTC, the Engineer was required to pay attention, be aware of his location and the signal indication displayed at the entrance to the block in which the train was running, as well as any permanent or temporary restrictions -- for speed, track gangs, etc. -- that his train was approaching. If he was not aware of all of that, due to distraction or uncertainty, then operating rules required him to take the safe course, which would have meant stopping or slowing the train (depending on the reason he was not aware of the upcoming curve speed restriction). Yes, the lack of PTC was a contributing factor, but no, it did not cause the accident. Compliance with existing operating rules would have prevented the accident with or without PTC, and that narrows the root cause down to the actions of one person. Thousands of other Engineers on Amtrak trains passed that location without PTC and properly controlled the speed. One did not.
It really is that basic. Whether that is criminal or not is of no interest to the NTSB. They merely investigate accidents, assess the cause, and recommend actions which could prevent or reduce the likelihood of similar accidents reoccurring in the future. It is up to the District Attorney and the Defense Attorney to present competent witnesses who can clearly communicate to a jury what the law, and the operating rules, require, present all pertinent facts surrounding operation of this train, and let the jury decide whether the law was or was not violated.
NTSB does not have enforcement or judicial authority. So, when you see an NTSB report, know that you are only looking at an official statement as to cause, and a recommendation (not a mandate) for corrective action.
Tom, your insight from years of experience as both an engineer and a company official is appreciated!
Hot Water posted:p51 posted:I don't doubt your experience, but a law enforcement officer holds zero jurisdiction over a railroad line. Any ticket they write will be worthless.
Well, again you are debating a subject that you are not fully knowledgeable in.
Funny. I had originally talked with a Washington State Patrol officer to confirm what I'd heard from a Florida police officer I grew up with. Calling back a few minutes ago to tell him about this thread and the topic, he said you were dead wrong, that law enforcement doesn't hold jurisdiction for an issue like speed over railroad lines and he's never even heard of a railroad getting a speeding ticket in any state.
He even laughed when I told him about your response above when I called him back just now.
p51 posted:I once saw a Florida highway patrolman write a ticket to a FEC hogger for blocking a grade crossing during a switching move for maybe 5 minutes.
Yes, they can write a ticket for blocking a road crossing for an extended period of time (at least around here they could). 5 minutes is not a ticketable time. That's just outright stupid on the patrolman's part! However, the ticket is supposed to be given to the [station] agent, not the train crew. Now that there are no more agents, or stations for that matter and haven't been for a long time, who gets the ticket...CYO???
We know Bostian filed a multi -million dollar tort against AMTRAK on 25 jan 2017 charging the RR with failing to provide a safe workplace. This idiotic move will ensure AMTRAK will take an active role against him in the criminal prosecution.
New news. Because of the tort AMTRAK filed a counterclaim with expert witnesses alleging gross negligence and incompetence. All these documents will now be used against Bostian in the criminal proceeding. He has guaranteed loss of any support from his employer.
Tommy,
Could you at least spell the man's name correctly. i.e. Bostian?????
Just a couple of points for the sake of clarity:
1. A criminal offense such as involuntary manslaughter (if that's what he's charged with) does not require specific intent (to kill someone). It's similar to vehicular manslaughter by a drunk driver. No drunk driver I know of ever got behind the wheel with the "intent" of killing someone. Nevertheless, when you do, it's a criminal offense.
2. If the case goes to trial, I would pretty much guarantee they will select a jury of 12 and not a judge. With a judge, all the prosecution has to do is convince one person of guilt and they're gone. With a jury, they have to convince all 12, unanimously - a much more difficult job (see O.J., Casey Anthony, Aaron Hernandez, etc.). And if the defense can just convince one person out of 12 that the defendant is not guilty, he can never be convicted.
3. As was noted, the elements of "duty, breach, causation, damages" are elements of civil offenses and not criminal.
4. Most criminal complaints describe the crime itself like, "the defendant on such and such a date did steal goods of the value of over $250.00" , but do not set forth each and every element of the crime that has to be proven. That task falls to the judge to explain to the jury what elements they must find in order to find the defendant guilty. It's important to understand that a jury just finds the "facts" (like, did the operator fall asleep ?) and the judge instructs the jury on what the law is and how to apply the law to those facts in order to render a just verdict.
5. In most jurisdictions, criminal complaints can be filed in various methods, but most states have a procedure where an aggrieved party can apply to the clerk's office of the local court for a criminal complaint against someone and the clerk will then conduct what is commonly known as a "probable cause" hearing to determine whether there is sufficient evidence (probable cause) for the issuance of a criminal complaint - not guilt or innocence - but just probable cause to issue the criminal complaint. Most commonly, this is used in family/neighbor type disputes where someone slugs someone in a fight and the police didn't witness it and therefore can't bring a complaint and one neighbor wants to bring criminal charges against the other neighbor. Typically, this process is reserved for misdemeanor offenses, but each state is different and when the authorities don't want to bring charges it is potentially possible for the families to use this procedure.
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