GG-1 Mystery

The problem with your question Paul is that you request a logical answer, but provide no logical starting point to counter post.

 

Nobody can present a case to you regarding the GG1 if you already have determined that the “…Mikado, the GP series, the SD70ACe and competitor ES44AC for modern power, all of these are by far superior in looks to the “Ugly Duckling GG1”.

 

My question to you, which must first be answered by you, is, how or what do you mean by “far superior?”

 

It’s funny that you lump all Northerns into one group because I think there are some truly beautiful Northerns and some truly hideous Northerns that roamed the rails.

So…again, from what platform do you find the GG1 inferior to the above mentioned units?

 

Charlie

 

 

I happen to love the look of the GG-1, but the argument starts from a point of something being subjective, which is how something looks.

 

First, I grew up with a PRR fan of a father, so my side of things will be a little biased.  But, I will try to supply something of an answer that could be based in some logic.

 

Now, that being said, for it's time, the GG-1 was a radical design for an electric locomotive, which up until that time wasn't as smoothly streamlined (which includes the P-5a Modified, which has the design aesthetic of the GG-1, but isn't as sleek or seamless).  The period in which the locomotive had its debut was the beginning into the height of the streamline era, where everything down to a toaster was changed to look like it would fly 200mph just sitting in your kitchen!

 

Now, you do have electric locomotives that had that streamlined look, but the GG-1 had a seamless look to it which seemed to resonate with a lot of people in it's time.

 

Beyond that, there is the longevity factor.  The GG-1 was a workhorse that was seen by a couple generations of railfans, lasting somewhere around or just over 40 years on the rails, outlasting a lot of its' contemporaries in main line service.

 

Those are a couple of guesses I have, and of course are open for debate.

I find the traditional sized O gauge GG!s to be much better looking than scale versions. They have a more condensed, industrial look. Scale sized versions look too long, too thin, and not brute-ish enough. 

The gloss green paint, gold stripes, and all those wheels really appeal to me. I don't find the Tuscan GG1s to be nearly as attractive. 

Raymond Loewy, the designer who created the GG1 look, (and who also designed the look of many other iconic products) would disagree, as would millions of his fans (both RR and others).  Have you ever seen one in person? The models just don't do it justice. They are huge, stealthy, and complicated. They are utilitarian and slippery at the same time. They appeal to all of our senses of appreciation.

 

We forgive your blasphemy. You've never stood at track side on the Corridor in a blizzard and watched one go by at 120 mph. It was the closest thing to a Cape Canaveral rocket launch you could experience.  Breathtaking, both in sight and sound.

I also prefer the green 5 strip GG1s.  As a native of the west, I have never had the honor of seeing even a stationary version of this locomotive.  By I grew up with PRR calendar paintings all over the walls of my grandfather's house, along with the PRR T-1 and S-2, as well as SP Daylights and Cab Forwards.  And I'm sure due to that, these locomotives have a place in my heart as a reminder of him.  But in the end I think it a matter of taste, not unlike foods or even the significant other.  We all have different likes and dislikes.  Asking someone to tell you why poeple like GG1s is like asking why do some like chicken over beef.

Sacralidge! Yoo, come on down to south Philly and say dat!  and the Bi polar is beautful right UGH! 

What I love also about the GG-1's is that I was able to see them actually running in regular service, albeit as an Amtrak hand-me-down.

 

The heartbreaking sight was on a trip my Dad's hobby shop did to the Wilmington & Western Railroad was seeing a line of GG-1s on the line along I-495, waiting their turn to be towed in and scrapped, I think in the Wilmington shops.

 

The funny part of that was the row of cars we had for the trip almost caused a massive pileup on the highway, slamming on brakes and swerving to the right shoulder to get a look and some photos of the engines all lined up!

quote:

I find the traditional sized O gauge GG!s to be much better looking than scale versions. They have a more condensed, industrial look. Scale sized versions look too long, too thin, and not brute-ish enough. 

 

Me too. I used to see real ones from time to time while they were still in service.

Why we find a locomotive attractive is completely subjective of course.  There are several reasons why the design of the GG1 is desirable to anyone who has studied classical western architecture and art during the Greek and Roman periods through the Art Deco and Modern movement of the 1930's.  The GG1 epitomizes the era of streamlining with it's ground breaking welded carbody.  When originally placed in service, these locomotives had the cleanest lines of anything on the rails.  Loewy's improvements to the GG1, while subtle were very meaningful.  The careful sculpting of the curves, the angle of nose and the refinement of detail show a skill more often found in the classical tradition of art then in the railroad industry.

 

The lines of the GG1 give an impression of speed even when stationary.  When running, the GG1 has a grace that is hard do duplicate, especially when you've seen one actually run in person.  It's balanced symmetry tends to be pleasing to most eyes.  The Raymond Loewy paint scheme was designed to compliment the lines and in its original gold leaf and DGLE, this must have been a stunning locomotive to see when it was new.  

 

In many ways, the GG1 more than any locomotive in US history firmly placed US design on top of the world for at least 20+ years in both pure design and the power to back it up in a reliable manner.  

 

Personally, I like all trains for many reasons, so I don't always find these debates useful.  However I will say that while I like the rugged looks of modern EMD and GE power, it is getting less and less interesting to watch trains when we are in an era of likeness as opposed to diversity of locomotive design.  From our perspective over 78 years after the first GG1 came out of Altoona in April of 1935 it may not seem like such a landmark, but put yourself in the perspective of the era and what was being built then and the GG1 really is the real deal.     

The GG1 was designed during the time when streamlining made everything better and is a classic example of scuplting form to follow function.

 

Rusty

There has been a lot of good feed-back from my post. Charlie, I also said "with your heart". Again, there is no correct answer. It is just my opinion that I think it is ugly. It has been a question of mine for a long, long time on the appeal of the GG-1. 

Yes, all Northerns weren't created equal  but there were enough goodlooking ones to offset the ugly ones. From the replies, nostalgia seems to be a big reason from many of you.  The streamlining and sense of power are a couple of  more. Let me say it again, my opinion is not the issue here, it is what you  feel about the GG-1 that interests me.  

No offense, but a logical response should not be required since your view of the GG-1 is based completely from your own opinion.....

 

You really think a GP-7 looks more pleasing than a GG-1??????????????? 

 

 

Now a Bi-Polar.... there's an ugly Duckling, yet I still have a sincere appreciation for them  and certainly would not turn one away.... especially a Rich Art tinplate  version

 

Like a GG-1 or not, this boils down at some level to the simple Ford versus Chevy debate or why is such in such my favorite team...  There does not have to a rhyme or reason...

 

 

It has and always will be in the eye of the beholder.

 

I once knew a gentleman who thought EMD F-Units were the ugliest locomotives around.

 

Rusty

How dare you say it is ugly. It is my favorite engine. It's beautiful. I rode passenger trains pulled by the GG1 in the 40's. When I was a teenager I would go down stairs at Penn Station and watch them come in & go out. How dare you say such a thing. Kick this guy off the forum

You're not alone in that sentiment.  I also think the GG1 locomotives are god-awful fugly, and yes, I think a GP7 / 9 looks tons better than those stretched toaster/coke bottle monstrosities.

 

But then, I do acknowledge that there are those that think the spectacular SP GS-series Daylight trains are visually uneasy on the eyes too, so it's clearly a case of different strokes.  Or it a matter of no accounting for taste? 

California & Wisconsin have the ugliest engines in the whole world. 

The real engine was incredibly impressive. I've never seen anything that was that large that could accelerate as fast as it could while making almost no noise.  I like both the scale and traditional sized models and the DGLE 5 stripe paint scheme is about as good as it gets.  

Paul, IMHO you have received some thoughtful, nostalgic, even poetic replies to your question (even though I never cared for the GG1's looks).

Wow, touchy-feely.  Looks like we just inadvertently found another nerve besides York debates that get Eddie G's blood boiling.

 

At least list some examples if you're going to make that declaration, sparky. 

Growing up along the Northeast Corridor we saw the GG1's all the time.  We would get exited if we saw a train come through without one pulling the train.  I remember the merger paint jobs and the on painted in the Bicentennial paint scheme.  I also remember all the GG1's parked in the yard at off 495 at Edgemoor Delaware.  

I just had an offer accepted for a k-line version that was upgraded to TMCC and Railsounds. 
$137.  The least amount I ever paid for any TMCC engine.
Might have a few minor issues.

My second electric.
Do not own any diesels. Do not intend to but who knows.

Kind of gravitated toward it. Scale version is to big for my layout.
And this one is more detailed than the Lionel version.
No opinion on the real ones.

 

So here's my 2-1/2 cents, which is completely non-nostalgic.  I didn't even know what a GG-1 was until just a few years back.

 

My perspective is Standard Gauge tinplate.  I got started in trains with my dad's 1920's Ives sets, so that's where I'm nostalgic about what a train should look like.  Standard Gauge ceased production around 1940, and actually all the manufacturers of Standard Gauge were in dire financial straits all during the 30's, so there was little in the way of new items being added to the 1920's Classic era lines.

 

For a long time I didn't have any streamlined equipment on my layout, bacause it didn't look like I thought a train should look like.  I'm happy to say I learned to look at them differently.  The Art Deco and Art Nouveau influence on industrial design in the 1920's and 1930's is a really fascinating area to learn about; it's where a lot of our subliminal ideas of "modern" come from, even today.

 

I believe that if Standard Gaiuge production had resumed after the War, among the first things Lionel would have introduced would have been a streamlined steam locomotive and the GG-1.  In fact Lionel did eventually come out with the Hiawatha and the Commodore Vanderbilt, two streamlined steamers, in Standard Gauge, but this had to wait until much later during the rebirth of Standard Gauge in the 1980's. 

 

I see the GG-1 as a parallel development to the streamliners.  It is to the NYC electrics and the Bipolars what the streamline Hiawatha is to the Atlantics and Pacifics; the next development in design in its category.  But in a way the GG-1 is more.  It's not just a suit of streamline sheet metal and fancy paint over an older-technology power plant.  

 

As Chuck's post above points out, the technology of the GG-1 was very impressive, in tractive power, acceleration, and low noise levels. And, whether it pushes our personal buttons or not, the Loewy design is a very unique, innovative and functional look.

 

Standard Gauge collectors have a much more limited range of designs to select from.  A couple types of NYC electrics; the Bipolars; almost all the steam engines offered are Atlantics or pseudo-Atlantics, and that's about it.  You have to really look for the rare exception. So when there is a possibility of something really different, it's pretty interesting on that basis alone.  Once I broadened my ability to appreciate the whole streamline era, it wasn't long before I was determined to have some GG-1's on my Standard Gauge layout.   Which is not an easy thing to do.  

 

I think they are really, really cool engines, I get excited about mine, and there's nothing nostalgic about it.

 

 

Very interesting thread you started Paul.

 

I think it is the gracefulness of the GG-1 that attracted me to it at a young age. My uncle Bob worked on them in the Wilmington Shops after he finished his service in the Navy in 1944. Retired from there in 1984. I remember that he hated seeing them go. I would learn as I grew older, just how powerful and fast they were. That same appearance, even when they stood still.

 

To me, the Raymond Loewy touch created a timeless appearance. IMHO, a GG-1 would look as much at home today on the Northeast Corridor as it did 75+ years ago. How many designs can say that?

 

I find myself almost embarrassed to say that I did not know that Lionel had produced it's PW classic of the GG-1 until after I came into the hobby in 1995. (I was just a spectator as a child  thanks for inspiring me dad! ). While I do not own one right not, a PW version to run would be nice. A scale version, to admire the graceful, quick and quiet locomotive I remember seeing as a child.

 

For laugh's only... the only good looking modern diesel (IMHO) - the SD80MAC wearing "ConRail Quality - 'Dress Blue' ". And I am not a fan of 'any' other EMD product. (It's an 'Alco'-holic thing. LOL... )

I grew up just outside Philly.  I saw the huge G motors every day.  I have had several trips behind them and love the looks of the locomotive.  The acceleration was instant.  What a thrill.  I like all trains but the G motor is number one in my book.  I have 16 of them all PS-2 and they all run off live catenary. 

Being a toy train guy running scale trains I always wanted a G motor painted with NYC lightning strips.  I met Gerry Morlitz and he has one.  One forum member showed a G motor painted in Northern Pacific and I want to do that one some day.

My love of the GG1 has a little to do with nostalgia as it was the first real locomotive that made a lasting impression on me. 

 

However, the fact remains that a if the GG1 were built today, it would still outperform most single passenger locomotives in service in the world today.  It had the tractive effort to pull 20 car heavyweight passenger cars with incredible acceleration and while mainly geared for 90 mph running the 4800 ran well over 100 mph during testing in 1934 with little damage to the track.  When the Metroliner fleet was being re-manufactured in the early to mid 70's, GG1s were geared for 100 mph service and were holding down the Metroliner schedules at 30+ years of age.

 

The replacement AEM7 needed to be double headed to pull an equal amount of heritage cars.  The HHP8 while an incredibly powerful locomotive won't have nearly the service life and it pulls much lighter weight cars.

 

The GG1 is the epitome of very sound engineering principles under a streamlined body.  Think of it as the muscle car of the 30's.

 

 

Paul

 

The Lionel GG-1 model hit the train market when American train travel was approaching it's annual passenger mile peak, trains were very much in everyone's thoughts about transportation and personal long distance travel and GG-1s pulled trains in 4 of the 10 largest US cities daily.  As others have stated, many of the feelings for GG-1s come from personal familiarity, nostalgia for their era of prominent service and their impressive starting performance.

 

The GG-1 received much favorable attention in its earlier years, the public relations staffs of the GG-1s owner, builders and designer saw to that.  And some of that PR spin still swirls around today.

 

However, the fact remains that a if the GG1 were built today, it would still outperform most single passenger locomotives in service in the world today. 

 

The GG1 is the epitome of very sound engineering principles under a streamlined body.

 

Jonathan

 

Sorry I missed meeting you at York.  I hope all is well and you can make it to an upcoming show.

 

The first statement might be true.  But it is also irrelevant if a two or three unit locomotive can match or exceed the performance of a GG-1, costs the same or less than a GG-1 to purchase, operate and maintain and offers greater flexibility and availability compared to a GG-1.

 

As for the second statement, the GG-1 represented engineering principals that were on the verge of obsolescence when they were built.  The first class of electric locomotives retired by the Milwaukee Road went to the scrapper about 20 years before the end of the rest of the electrification system.  Like the GG-1 they had two traction motors per powered axle and quill drives that made them difficult and expensive to maintain.  The GG-1 has 40 percent of its axles unpowered, not an efficient way to build a locomotive.  It has a heavy and expensive cast steel frame, not a feature found on the best engineered locomotives of the late 1930s or today.

 

The most sound engineering principles of the 1930s brought us lighter, more versatile locomotives with higher adhesion, higher utilization and 15 to 30 year useful lives at which time they could be retired in favor of even more efficient machines.  In 1940 one might have argued the relative merits of a GG-1 hauled Broadway Limited vs the Zephyrs, Super Chief or the City of San Francisco.  But what would the value of 100 shares of Burlington, Santa Fe or UP stock purchased in 1940 be today?  Certainly more than the value of a Pennsylvania Stock certificate.  Some railroads got it right in the 1930s and 40s.  The PRR just wasn't one of them.

It is a "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" thing and has nothing to do with logic, as far as the "looks" thing goes. It is opinion, so there is NO wrong answer.

 

The reputation of the GG1 is based on performance, not looks. If the GG1 had run like a stone, we would likely NOT be having this discussion.

 

So how do you like the looks of the Bipolar?

 

Simon

Before WWII the Pennsylvania railroad had 3 or 4 of the 10 fastest scheduled passenger trains in the world running on the northeast corridor.

Guess what head end power was being used.  

Since Lionel had a long history of basing many of their locos on various electrics before the war, the GG1 was a logical choice for a post war offering. That, plus the fact that Joshua was going for models with lots of wheels to "out-spin" the competition led to the GG1 and PRR turbine models. The wheel factor worked for me and many other kids of the era.

 

As far as the Loewy design goes, some just like a particular style, such as Art-Deco, while others don't. Just a matter of individual taste.

 

But, as others have said, standing beside the track and watching a real one accelerate and glide by appealed to a train lover on a level that went way beyond style. As they say, "You had to be there!"

 

Jim

 

 

 

This post reminds me of one a few years ago on CTTs forum where someone referred to the GG1 as a "PCB laden pig of a locomotive". That brought the wrath of gods down on the poster.

I like the looks of the GG1, saw one close up last summer at the Pa. railroad Museum, that thing is monstrous! 

 

Jerry

I never was interested in electric motors until I saw and rode behind a G in Harrisburg PA in 1977.  Even in Amtrak black, it had that balance of form, speed, and grace, which is very much lacking in engineering anymore.

 

When Ma and Pa trains had a Williams G for about $125.00, I got one.

 

BTW, I am an SP fan.  But to me, the GS2-5 Daylight casting and paint actually turn me off.  The rest of the train great, but too much bling on the front end.  Now the N&W J does have that right balance.....

I would like to thank all of you who replied. I know I touched a few nerves which was not my attention. I really did want to find out about the allure of the GG-1. Maybe using the word logical wasn't the best choice but it did result in answers relating to the the speed and acceleration of the GG-1 which I was not aware of.

I thank you all again. Although I haven't changed my mind, I have a better appreciation for the GG-1 attraction.

Paul:  Jumped on here a  bit late, but having grown up during the hay-day of the GG-1's, and then actually seeing some of them in service, starting in the 1970's, I really never gave them a thought of being"ugly".   As was mentioned, they were a Raymond Loewy design, although some think that he only did the final designs such as the paint scheme.   I often questioned some of his other, radical styling's including some  of the automobiles we was responsible for.

 

Now, I understand that the GG-1's were not Milwaukee Road and that alone puts them at a disadvantage.  But typically for virtually all railroads East of Chicago, the dull, drab colors were the only ideas those people had.  Instead of Orange and Maroon, or Green and Yellow, Silver, Red and Yellow, or Armour Yellow with Red trim and Gray roofs, all eastern roads were either dark maroon, dark gray, dark green or dark blue.  And of course the GG-1's were decorated the same way with a couple of gold stripes to try to enliven the whole appearance.

 

But now, imagine a GG-1 in Milwaukee's Orange and Maroon, or maybe Chicago and Northwestern's John Deere Green and Yellow!  Now don't you think that would have made a pretty locomotive???  Picture a properly painted GG-1 pulling an equally colorful passenger train through the Cascade Mountains, or winding it's way through Sixteen Mile canyon.  Now there's a picture!

 

Paul Fischer

The GG1 is in the hearts of many railfans due to;

 

• Longetivity of service
• built like a flying bridge on wheels
• 
• smooth skin design
• Battleship-like crew protection!:
• 
• 
• and can withstand MANY Granite  Roman Architecture structures getting in its way! [take THAT Silver streak!]

In 1973 I was working in Washington D.C. I took the train to Baltimore one weekend pulled by a GG1.  By timing the interval between mileposts we were doing 120mph.  The conductor told me that the GG1's were limited to 100 mph but the engineers squeaked out an additional 20mph.  Acceleration was smooth and the ride was great and the horn - one of a kind.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Larry

But the basic design stemmed from the PRR's rework of the P5A, didn't it ?

I thought that when the PRR issued RFQ's to GE and W they said, in effect, do it like that.   The G design ended up with more space between the control positions, unlike the more centralized P5;  the shorter R illustrates what the PRR may have been thinking originally.   Raymond L. just cleaned it up a bit, as other designers have done to other designs.  If the builders had been given a free hand, we would have seen something different, perhaps better -- but that would be that "subjective" thing ....

   

Best, SZ

The GG-1 served for almost 5 Decades!!! If you had the opportunity to NOTCH OUT on one of them, perhaps a few of you might change your tune???  Sorry for the poor picture(before digital camera)!!!  That's me sitting in Penn Station, Baltimore,1980 on a Passenger Protect job.  The 19 GG-1's mentioned above, were sitting on a siding in Clayton, De., awaiting scrap in Chicago...SAD!!!

I accept that beauty is truly in the eyes of the beholder. In my opinion, this example of Raymond Loewy design is brilliant. While it has no place on my N&W Steam roster, my 1st grandchild (due 12/12/13) will be receiving a WbB Pink Girl's GG1 freight set for Christmas! I voted with my $$.

 

It made me cringe to not buy the scale GG1's blown-out earlier this year. My only condolence is there are several belonging to other members of the modular club. I get to run and enjoy theirs. 

 

Just my $0.02

 

Gilly

Scene in Altoona erecting shop in 1934:  Two men are standing there looking at the new G.  One man is wearing dirty work clothes and is carrying a 24" pipe wrench;  the other is wearing a spotless white toga and carrying a scroll.

  Toga guy:  "Ah, what lines -- the balance, the ratios, the harmony.  Classical elegance, would you agree not, Brvtvs ?" 

  PRR guy:  "It's @#%^*  OK"

 

I'm sorry, Jonathan -- I couldn't resist.

 

Best, SZ  [ hoping the shop foreman doesn't catch the toga guy without official PRR trouser leg clips on his toga....]