Help getting started

Go with the tubular from Menards good pricing and best for ease of use. Pick up a nice used Lionel basic transformer if you want to get your feet wet this remote. Look for a cab-1 I believe there was one for sale on here as well. Cheap easy to use and a getaway to the bigger trains.

More advice ...

A Lionel CW-80 transformer would be sufficient.

A remote control device should "match" the specs of your existing Lionel locomotive, but keep future purchases in mind.

   Conventional  (simplest, with transformer-based control; but may not be convenient for a ceiling-mounted layout; also not
                as helpful to your youngster)
   LionChief  (every LC loco has its own hand-held controller - a good system. Or use a UNIVERSAL controller; it can control                        several LC locos)
   TMCC  (the original system requires two devices in addition to a transformer:  a Command Base and a hand-held
                controller; a CAB-1 or CAB 1L).  The CAB-1 device is no longer made, but one pops up on eBay from time to time.
                A Lionel PowerMaster could be added to the circuit for control of a conventional loco)
   TMCC Legacy (now the top-of-the-line control system.  Not needed if you don't have (nor plan to acquire) a
                Lionel Legacy-equipped loco).

My story - for reference.  I have four LionChief locos (THOMAS, JAMES, PERCY, and DIESEL) for use by my great grandkids. Each loco is equipped with its own hand-held, color-coded controller. They know how to use this time-tested, flawless system.

I have two TMCC locos that accept commands from a CAB-1 hand-held controller This system is now dated, but it works.  I added a Lionel PowerMaster to the circuit for occasional use in case a hobbyist/visitor brings a conventional loco to run on my layout. However, I rarely use it.

A CAB-1L controller is available, and I intend to buy one. I own several Legacy-equipped locos, but the curves on my current layout will not accommodate them. So they rest on a display shelf until I rebuild the layout and install O72 curves.  FYI, a CAB-1L device will be compatible with the upcoming release of the spiffy (and pricey) CAB-3 system.

A recommendation ...
If you intend to add locos for your youngster, I suggest buying locos equipped with LionChief (there are several versions of this control system). IMHO, LC would be ideal for your youngster.

Carry on ...

Mike Mottler    LCCA 12394
mottlermike10@gmail.com

thanks for the info guys. I'm confused with the Lionel Powermaster. Seems there are many/similar versions. Could you provide me a part number for reference? I do like the idea of using a LionChief equipped model eventually, but since i just purchased the 1983 Daylight loco, I want to try to get it up and running first. thanks again for all the help!

Unless it's been modified, the 6-8307 loco is conventional operation (transformer control) only.  So, any discussion of TMCC, Lionchief, or Powermaster is very premature.

To run the 6-8307, a modern transformer such as the Lionel CW-80 or MTH Z-1000, MRC Dual Power, or older style Lionel KW or ZW is all you need.  These can all be obtained for reasonable prices.  Be aware that postwar transformers such as KW or ZW should be thoroughly checked out before use, and they should not be used if the roster is expanded to include locomotives with modern electronic control systems. 

I currently have a layout similar to what you are planning. I use Fastrack with a bit of foam underneath to help with noise. I'm a command-control guy (using a Legacy #990 Set), but I do have a conventional locomotive too that I use a Legacy Powermaster to run. Here's what I would recommend for a budget layout:

-Any transformer will do. I like the Lionel CW80. It also has accessory power.

-Wire 2 power feeds to 2 bus wires every 4-6 feet of track; lockons would be better for the shelf layout. Use bigger wire for bus wires; 12-14 Gauge is perfect. 16-18 Gauge is great for feeders.

-Place your tubular track on some sort of roadbed to help with noise.

-A Lionchief Plus loco would be a good choice for a less expensive remote-controlled locomotive. LC+ engines will also run with a conventional transformer.

By the way, how big is the layout? Do you plan to add switches? Those should be powered off accessory power at 12-14V.

Another possible suggestion (albeit a bit more expensive one) is to build a portable 4X8 table that could allow you to have scenery, accessories, and switches. I think that your son would enjoy interacting with the trains more. For a table layout, I'd suggest getting a GW180 10 Amp transformer. The GW180 could run everything on a small layout. You could also get a couple of smaller transformers to power the table layout. Again, the wiring would be the same as the shelf layout.

Hi Rev,

I found this video below on how to build a shelf layout.  Given that you already have an engine,  the CW80 is an excellent suggestion.  Just run the engine using the conventional controls.  At a later date, you can get a new lionChief engine and use its handheld remote and just set the CW80 to 16 volts or so. this is esentially the same recommendation that Mike Mottler suggested.   

Bing Videos

The video is good,  in that it shows two tracks,  you can always start with one track and built the shelf large enough to accomodate two tracks at a later date.  I think the switches would not be necessary, just one more thing to go wrong.  IF you have two tracks, then you could run one train and your son run the other train.

To lessen the sound,  indoor/outdoor carpet can be used.  You might be able to get small scraps at home depot, or the like.  You don't need to use a lot of screws to keep the track down,  every 3 feet should be enough.  The screws will transmit the sound more, so less is better.

To be on the safe side, you can unhook the transformer after each use, and just have connectors to plug in the track wires.  you will probably need a few feeder wires every eight feet or so.

If you have any questions, the fourm is a great place to get answers.

Good luck and keep us posted.

I like Dylan's point: "Another possible suggestion (albeit a bit more expensive one) is to build a portable 4X8 table that could allow you to have scenery, accessories, and switches. I think that your son would enjoy interacting with the trains more." Playing with is a lot more fun than watching.

If there is no space for 4x8, 4x6 on casters could roll under a bed.

Great information! I appreciate the help. I'm really set on the shelf system at this time since my son sometimes is "unpredictable" and might decide to rework the train and track system if he  could get to it The room is pretty much a square 10x10. The track I ordered from Menards should be more than enough, but i did order 042 curves and hope the old Daylight will work on it.

Dylan - you suggested "2 bus wires" can you elaborate on this? Also, i have been looking at the CW-80 on Trainz and they are within my budget.

Again, I appreciate all and any help. Once the track comes in, it's off to the store for lumber and the fun really begins!

I'm going to be a little different. I would recommend using the Z1000 by MTH VS a Lionel CW80. Another option I could endorse is a a William/Atlas 80 Watt.

Here's the logic and reasoning behind my answer:

#1 You are starting out with a semi postwar designed engine still using the larger universal AC motor. These tend to be higher inductance and rather electrically noisy. Many modern electronic controlled transformers (The CW80 both old and new, and the Zcontroller of the Z1000 set) use transistors to modify the fixed voltage of the core transformer. The point is, this engine produces voltage spikes back towards the transformer. Any derailment or short can produce spikes- but specifically these older traditional engines can create harder spikes. They were also around when many of the transformers (postwar designs) had no electronics other than a brute force metal oxide diode- that can withstand the abuse from voltage spikes. The point being, that derailment short, and large inductive voltage spikes created by this style of engine and accessories in my opinion is riskier for an electronic controlled modern transformer.

#2 I'm specifically saying the MTH, because in the event of damage, you can just repair or replace the Zcontroller portion. In fact, MTH parts and sales actually has the complete board ready to drop in today in case of a repair.

#3 There is significant value (bang for the buck) in MTH engines and seeing that value, you may eventually add some to your collection. It's been my experience the recent Z1000 and Zcontroller are more compatible IMO and experience with MTH PS1, PS2, and PS3 engines running in conventional.

Counter that with Lionel CW80 is a different beast. Lionel does not list or carry a single part for the CW80 new or old versions!!! You read that right- the traditional argument is, Lionel is better because of support and parts- except it's not, and definitely not in the case of the CW80. Further Lionel used triangle security bits, a glass fuse between the control board and core transformer, so there are tons of cases where a user blows this internal fuse, and it's a whole process just to get around the security screws to replace a fuse that is not in a fuse holder- Oh no, it's in series wired under heatshrink. To be fair, I have provided info and detailed teardown of the new CW80 and transistor replacement, but if the board is further damaged- there is no replacement board.

https://ogrforum.com/...80-disassembly-tools

https://ogrforum.com/...9#161631098285667179

Again, I also recommend the Atlas/Williams relatively recent 80 Watt (several years old now and no longer produced but still on the used market). This is because this is a hybrid of postwar wiper style voltage control of the core transformer but also has modern bell and whistle buttons. It bridges this gap between new and old quite nicely, and doesn't come up often enough in these transformer discussions.

Bus wires distribute power. For a larger layout, the bus wiring ensures that power is even throughout the track, since as a train goes around a loop, it loses some current due to resistance. As I said, you will need two bus wires. One wire is for the center rail (power); the other is for the outside rails (ground). Make sure you color code the wiring. That makes it easier to remember which wire goes to which rail. A recommendation is to use red wires for the center rail and black for the outside rails. I'd recommend at least 16 or 18 Gauge wire for a small layout like yours. 12-14 Gauge is better (smaller number of wire gauge means larger wire, by the way). Feeder wires (the wires that connect the buses to the track) can be 18-16 gauge.

To further elaborate on the bus wire issue, if you only have one connection from your transformer to the track at one location, it's probable that the electrical power to the far side of your track layout won't be strong enough to power your engine and it will slow down as it moves further and further away from the one track connection.

In order to insure that you have sufficient power going to all parts of your trackage, you can use "bus wires" to extend the power outputs of your transformer to all parts of the layout. Basically, you would run wires from your transformer outputs underneath the shelf, so that you are essentially extending your transformer terminals under the layout (the bus wires do not need to connect to anything at the far end). The second step to this process would be to then connect short wires from the bus wires to your track about every 6 feet or so all along the track (these are called "feeders" or "power drops". By doing this, you will insure that all areas of your layout receive adequate electrical power.

The connections from the bus wires to the track feeders are made using various connectors of your choice - common ones are "suitcase connectors" (pic in red below), T-tap connectors (pic below) or "Wago" style connectors.

There is also an alternate method to get power to all areas of your track without using bus wires. Purchase a "distribution block" such as the green MTH one shown below. Connect your transformer to the red and black terminals on the distribution block. Then simply run feeder wires from your track about every 6 feet to the terminals on the distribution block. The one shown has 12 terminals to which you can attach feeder wires, but you may only need 4-8 for your size layout.

Now I understand the wiring. Thanks for the information.

Mallard said, "Be aware that postwar transformers such as KW or ZW ... should not be used if the roster is expanded to include locomotives with modern electronic control systems."  

1. Why not?

2. What should be used?

3. What counts as "modern electronic control systems?"

I got on this thread to help, but it seems I'm here to learn, instead.

@Mallard4468 posted:

..postwar transformers such as KW or ZW should be thoroughly checked out before use, and they should not be used if the roster is expanded to include locomotives with modern electronic control systems.

@Ken Wing posted:

Mallard said, "Be aware...

1. Why not?

2. What should be used?

3. What counts as "modern electronic control systems?"

I got on this thread to help, but it seems I'm here to learn, instead.

"Postwar transformers such as KW or ZW" have all of the transient spike / surge protection that all of the modern transformers have, so @Ken Wing has a good point... the statement is somewhat nonsensical.

Now, if you want extra overload protection, be it from the 7 or 10 amp outputs(or more with TPC type combos available) from modern PowerMaster bricks or the 10 to 14 amp outputs of the KW or Z/ZW, feel free to add external breakers to your power districts. Breakers are the wrong device, however, for transients. To clamp voltage spikes, the use of strategically placed bidirectional TVS diodes of a suitable rating is recommended for power supplies 100 years old or 100 days old. The damage from transients is ongoing and cumulative, and breakers do not stop them... so the question is not if your electronics will fail, but when.

@Ken Wing posted:

Mallard said, "Be aware that postwar transformers such as KW or ZW ... should not be used if the roster is expanded to include locomotives with modern electronic control systems."  

1. Why not?  The circuit breakers are designed to protect the power supply, not the locomotives, and the expensive electronics in modern locomotives can get fried very quickly.  Search for numerous threads regarding circuit breakers, TVS diodes, etc.

2. What should be used?  Get fast breakers or use a Z4000 or ZW-L, and add TVS diodes.  Again, there are a lot of threads that cover this in depth.   

3. What counts as "modern electronic control systems?"  TMCC, Legacy, Protosounds (a/k/a PS1), PS2, and PS3.

I got on this thread to help, but it seems I'm here to learn, instead.

See above, and @Vernon Barry's post.  For an inexperienced new train guy (the OP), I was trying to keep it basic and not get into the weeds because it can be overwhelming.  My take is that he wants something simple that his son can run.   The "right answer" depends on what kind of locomotives he plans to obtain in the future.