Help VL Big Boy 6-11436 Updated 8-29-2016

I am not real good with Legacy and not sure this will solve your problem, but it seems like I remember reading that you had to use the LCS software to remove the engine completely?

I was also thinking there was a way to factory reset a Legacy engine (Like MTH DCS), but I think they were all somewhat different and someone said they would be listed in the manual specific to the engine.

try 39 or 41 and see what happens.  if the engine responds then the info is corrupt for 40 and will have to be deleted as above.

I had a corrupted entry in the Legacy base several years ago, firing up the LSU (Legacy System Utility) and clearing it out solved the problem. That's probably what I'd try first.

When you went back to #40, did you do the engine program switch in program then push 40 then set?

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

When you went back to #40, did you do the engine program switch in program then push 40 then set?

 Marty...... yes I set switch to program then pushed engine and selected 40 using keypad and then set then powered all off waited and set switch back to run.

RTR12 and GunrunnerJohn... I cleared all settings from legacy base and engine #40 but had to download the LSU software to windows 10 took longer to figure out how to use that and get computer and base to play nice! once I had it all working and data loaded it was a snap so apparently the data for engine 40 somehow got corrupted? 

thanks to all whom replied and this is now a resolved issue that I have been fighting for 4 months now! I appreciate all the good folks and techs that try and help those of us not so gifted at figuring things out.

now cab-2 commands are all accepted by big boy as it was out of the box. 

question if I save all data someplace if something goes poof can I clear all base data and then reload from that backup? and will assume to a module or to the windows 10 pc itself?

thanks again all I am going to go run and enjoy the big boy tonight if I can keep the main smoke stacks going its like owning a 1955 buick roadmaster gulp gulp cannot pass up a gas pump pun intended.

I don't know what gets whacked, but I had to do this, and nothing I did on the CAB2 would clear it.  Glad you got it running.

You can backup the base to a file anytime you want using the LSU.

well all bad news after an hr or so I went and powered layout up and addressed the BB and for whatever reason?? its back to same old issue smoke and tender lights not responding to key pad.

I powered off and walked away and slept on it. I woke up and attached the base and deleted it out of system again.

put all back on layout and powered layout up already had BB set to program and this time am using ID #9 and then powered all down set BB switch to run waited 30 seconds powered all up and using BB module loaded it to engine #9 all is working correctly again.

will wait for an hour and see if same issue pops up again and will report back here with findings.  and this is getting old quick as none of the other legacy or tmcc engines exhibit this behavior just this bad boy pun intended.

That is certainly odd, let us know how it works after it's rest.

and I'm back been 1 1/2 hrs since I re-added BB with new ID #9 and powered all up again and keypad commands are working with a glitch and it might be operator caused?

If I cycle keypad commands quickly then commands not done correctly. so say I push smoke from off to low is fine but if I then immediately push smoke keypad to go to medium and then high it will not respond with air release sound.

but if I wait between keypad presses for 2 seconds or so then each keypad command will respond with air release sound.

so am I possibly going faster than cab-2 can respond to?

other than that it is all working I do not intend to change engine ID to 40 as this number seems to be a # 13 in disguise pun intended.

so what do you all think?

when you are pushing the button fast do you see a red light flash on the cab2?

BIGDODGETRAIN  no red light shows when pushing keypad commands slow or fast on the cab-2

Glad is sort of worked. The rest of this is now above me, but I am interested in following the rest of the trials and solutions and how it all turns out in the end. Good luck with it all.

yes its been challenging just when you think its fixed it breaks itself again! am wondering if a possible cab-2 issue is root cause?

this is what I've tried I reloaded version 1.5 to black module for both base and cab had no affect on issues with BB. I switched from legacy to cab-1 no the older one will read manual as if I push aux 2 button both tender and engine lights turn off and I mean all of them no individual tender on/off or headlight on/off separately or marker lights on/off.

also I can push the aux-1 and then #8 button turns smoke stacks off #9 turns all on no low med high smoke setting, whistle and blowdown smoke works using cab-1 no signal issues at all between cab-1 and BB.

I have the milwaukee rd s-3 sitting next to BB and using cab-2 it responds to all commands to features this engine has so I think I have eliminated the cab-2 and legacy base as being bad what do you think? I have taken the ser-2 and the old tmcc base out of the mix and same results so I believe that eliminates them as causing this issue.

If I still had the v1.3 modules I would load it to base and remote just to verify not a software issue. If I hold hand over both handrails on BB the smoke and tender light commands will get received I can touch both or only right or left handrail at a time and BB will change smoke and tender light settings! yet I have no flickering headlights anywhere on layout while big boy is running or in a stationary spot with tracks above it so am thinking not a ground plane issue.

anyone have thoughts of what to try next or have I pretty much pointed finger at the BB itself and for whatever reason has a signal antenna issue or a bad RCMC and or antenna board?

all of this started a year ago when BB was running on layout and I heard a loud pop and all engine sounds went quiet the engine intermittently jerked then run a few inches and jerk again and then came to a complete stop and the whistle would blow on and off and would not respond to any commands from cab-2 had to turn main power switch for layout off. I sent it to lionel and they said the RCMC board was bad and replaced it that fixed that part but since then always this non response to some commands. I am stumped! I had to send back again and they reattached wire to handrail and said it was working but still this same issue not faulting them but i am stumped as to root cause of this engines issue.

Again my limited knowledge of Legacy here (and I don't have a VLBB), but didn't the VLBB need a v1.5.x version or maybe even 1.6? I was thinking there was an update for the VLBB to add some features or something?

Edit: Maybe a call to Lionel tomorrow would be a good idea? I missed the part about what happened a year ago. If it worked with your Legacy version then I suspect that might not be the problem as I was thinking above. 

StPaul posted:

this is what I've tried I reloaded version 1.5 to black module for both base and cab had no affect on issues with BB. I switched from legacy to cab-1 no the older one will read manual as if I push aux 2 button both tender and engine lights turn off and I mean all of them no individual tender on/off or headlight on/off separately or marker lights on/off.

also I can push the aux-1 and then #8 button turns smoke stacks off #9 turns all on no low med high smoke setting, whistle and blowdown smoke works using cab-1 no signal issues at all between cab-1 and BB.

I have the milwaukee rd s-3 sitting next to BB and using cab-2 it responds to all commands to features this engine has so I think I have eliminated the cab-2 and legacy base as being bad what do you think? I have taken the ser-2 and the old tmcc base out of the mix and same results so I believe that eliminates them as causing this issue.

If I still had the v1.3 modules I would load it to base and remote just to verify not a software issue. If I hold hand over both handrails on BB the smoke and tender light commands will get received I can touch both or only right or left handrail at a time and BB will change smoke and tender light settings! yet I have no flickering headlights anywhere on layout while big boy is running or in a stationary spot with tracks above it so am thinking not a ground plane issue.

anyone have thoughts of what to try next or have I pretty much pointed finger at the BB itself and for whatever reason has a signal antenna issue or a bad RCMC and or antenna board?

all of this started a year ago when BB was running on layout and I heard a loud pop and all engine sounds went quiet the engine intermittently jerked then run a few inches and jerk again and then came to a complete stop and the whistle would blow on and off and would not respond to any commands from cab-2 had to turn main power switch for layout off. I sent it to lionel and they said the RCMC board was bad and replaced it that fixed that part but since then always this non response to some commands. I am stumped! I had to send back again and they reattached wire to handrail and said it was working but still this same issue not faulting them but i am stumped as to root cause of this engines issue.

if you are holding your hand over engine and issues disappear it is a signal issue with engine.  plus the fact the engine next to the BB works correctly.

I loaded V 1.60 to legacy base and cab-2 it was working fine until I moved BB then it started to not respond to keypad commands smoke and aux-2 features sometimes it will respond but mostly not.

how far above handrails/antenna can hand be before that will stop helping the signal strength?

I think you're splitting hairs now.  If holding your hand over the antennas makes it work properly, and other locomotives operate normally in the same section of the layout, you have a locomotive issue with the BB.

GunnrunnerJohn   late to reply been doing Dr visits with sister today has dementia. I have setup a 2 1/2' aluminum foil tape  between tracks as a test can I use ground wire from a layout receptacle box as a test just to rule a ground plane issue out of the mix for this one bad boy?

Adding ground plane wire can help, but if other engines do not need it, the offending engine is still the weak link.  R4LC and the new non modular receivers do fail.   G

Like George says, if other locomotives work fine in the same area of the layout, a ground plane isn't the real answer.

GGG and GUNRUNNER thanks for help I'm like you both are this seems more issue with the BB having a signal issue so a question to both. Prior to first time engine went in for a electronic issue they found RCMC board was bad but came back with this and a few minor issues non electronic. They fixed one wire that came unattached to right handrail and ever since I've been battling this signal issue. 

now no way implying fault with Lionel repair center or the techs. The issue sort of diminished when I made a stylus and used it rather than my fingers but has stopped working with that now.

so there is a smaller board attached on left side of RCMC board is that the R4LC board you mentioned in reply GGG?

IF so is it possible seeing all worked prior to returning BB to me that in shipping it has been or something else dislodged enough to intermittently make contact from when cold until electronics heat up?

Due to my opening up BB I had to pay for repairs as said warranty was void and am okay with that,  but now hesitate to open it to have a look see and have to pay again for possibly there honoring warranty for this repair!

Yet this will make 3 Rd trip to Lionel and the shipping box is badly beaten up so am hesitant to ship again $2000 not an easy swallow if it gets damaged in transit to from!

But hopefully one of you can tell me if that small board I mentioned on RCMC board is the suspect one causing all my headaches. 

I wish Lionel would allow repair centers to service these as well as having an authorized repair center in my area.

I appreciate all you techs have tried helping me on this I sent an email to someone famous here and afformentioned well known name but so far no response.

That little board is the TMCC receiver, but it's not an R4LC.  It's the RCMC receiver, and it's available at Lionel.  If the antenna or it's wiring to the RCMC is not the problem, this is usually the top suspect.  The good news is it's also much cheaper than the full RCMC, $32.

This is the board I have in my VL BB that's connected to the RCMC as you can see it has 3 pins top and bottom don't see on your photos. So where is the R4LC board GGG mentioned in engine or tender?

This is old board that was originally in BB that Lionel replaced

Look closer Paul!  I clearly see three pins on one end and four pins on the other end!  This is the ONLY receiver board that is used with the RCMC, and I'm sure it's the right one.

oops in your picture they look like a  solder point my bad. 

So does this smaller board receive commands from cab2 and sends to RCMC board then goes to smoke stack or whistle smoke and so on?

The small board is the TMCC receiver.  All the track commands are processed through that board and then passed on to the RCMC for execution.  The track signal receiver is that little board.

BTW, that's not my picture, I got it off the Lionel parts site.

Legacy that is modular has R4LC, newer RCMC engines have the Legacy receiver John shows.  You mentioned they worked on a broken antenna wire to a handrail.  Is it possible it is still not connected or has a partial ground to chassis?  G

GGG posted:

Legacy that is modular has R4LC, newer RCMC engines have the Legacy receiver John shows.  You mentioned they worked on a broken antenna wire to a handrail.  Is it possible it is still not connected or has a partial ground to chassis?  G

Partial ground I'm not sure where you mean that might be located at or where to look.

I believe both handrail wires are attached as I can touch one at a time and commands are executed from cab2.

As when the right handrail wire was off touching it the commands sent would not be accepted.

Now question I asked Lionel to return the original RCMC board and it has that small receiver board so would swapping the receiver boards out be a good thing or could it be what was wrong when they replaced the entire RCMC board?

Also Lionel said they would disable RCMC board not sure all looks ok and am curious if one of you repairmen could test it and fix what ails it? That way I have a replacement if this one goes poof again.

thanks for all responses so far I like this engine but it must have been a Monday built as it's been plagued with small annoying issues out of the box 

I'm not sure if this was asked but...

Why didn't you send it back to Lionel for warranty repair?  It should be covered until December.  At this point if it gets sent back, I suspect you'll be paying.

Of course I realize there are some folks that like to dive in and may not want to risk something else going wrong while in repair.  I was just curious.

You're right Marty, since I believe Lionel pays shipping both ways on Vision Line repairs, I'd recommend sending it back as well.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You're right Marty, since I believe Lionel pays shipping both ways on Vision Line repairs, I'd recommend sending it back as well.

Well it's most likely too late for the warranty repair due to the engine being opened and documented here.  Lionel service as of late have been sticklers on the warranty requirements.  In the past they were likely to over look someone opening the engine to see if there was an "obvious" problem but lately they seems to be much stricter.  Can't say I blame them.  I can't imagine how many attempted repairs they get back under warranty and have to fix issues that could have been avoided caused by an untrained hobbyist.  Of course there are exceptions to those who can dance their way through an engine, but then again they are probably not sending them back anyways.

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MartyE  Due to my opening up BB I had to pay for repairs as said warranty was void and am okay with that,  but now hesitate to open it to have a look see and have to pay again for possibly there honoring warranty for this repair!

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 I had removed boiler from frame to rebuild smoke units lionel felt it was tampering and that smoke fluid had gotten onto that board I was ok with paying for the rcmc board replacement. 

upon its return the signal issue was present so lionel issued another RA# for its second return and found issue was with wire that had come loose from right handrail they fixed that said all was working and that one they paid for repairs.

upon that return it worked fine until I changed the engine ID# from 1 to 40 and its been an uphill struggle since. in another reply I stated that I made a stylus out of some solid core round evergreen tubing and for awhile it responded fairly well so figured my fat fingers were depressing 2 keys at same time.

so far no reply from Mikado sent him an email over the weekend am hoping to get a reply on his thoughts.

MartyE posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You're right Marty, since I believe Lionel pays shipping both ways on Vision Line repairs, I'd recommend sending it back as well.

Well it's most likely too late for the warranty repair due to the engine being opened and documented here.  Lionel service as of late have been sticklers on the warranty requirements.  In the past they were likely to over look someone opening the engine to see if there was an "obvious" problem but lately they seems to be much stricter.  Can't say I blame them.  I can't imagine how many attempted repairs they get back under warranty and have to fix issues that could have been avoided caused by an untrained hobbyist.  Of course there are exceptions to those who can dance their way through an engine, but then again they are probably not sending them back anyways.

GUNRUNNER  your correct on them being sticklers on opening engines still under warranty!

the end of this December marks end of warranty on this so will I be able to send this to a authorized lionel repair facility for any future issue I might encounter?

ok talked to Brittney at lionel customer service am getting a RA# and said as long as they see I have not opened the BB up they will honor the warranty and fix the signal issue.

said upon receipt at lionel repair center that turn around time is currently 2 weeks for me.

I will update this once engine is returned and I am really hoping that 3rd time round gets this all working again as I enjoy running it on my layout.

thanks again to all who replied with ideas to try and fix this externally.

am still hoping someone will say the rcmc boards are fixable with replacement electronic parts.

The RCMC board might be repairable, but it's difficult without knowing anything about the circuit.  No documentation exists that mere mortals have access to.

The warranty repair is the way to go, but not sure how Lionel will tell if engine has been open, since it has been opened by them for first repair.

What I was saying about partial ground is:  The antenna (handrail in this engine) is meant to be isolated from the chassis.  Chassis ground is outside rail.  If some how a partial resistance to ground was present that could be hurting the antenna's ability to transmit the signals.

There is a lot of potential issues here.  Antenna grounding, bad connection to handrail, bad receiver board, bad receiver board connection.

As far as repairing other board, there are probably a lot of chips that are not repairable or may require programming.  So depending on what was wrong would determine what may or may not be repairable.  Also as John stated you would need to start reverse engineering it to figure out.  I was able to repair a Legacy Lite sound board.  All depends.   G

I've done lots of repairs on stuff like the R2LC, RS power and audio boards, etc.  I did actually repair one RCMC, it had bad drivers from a shorted motor.  I've gotten several of those, one was too far gone and had cooked the PCB, the other one was recoverable.

Like George says, it really depends on what is wrong with it.  I was able to repair one of the new ERR RS-Commander boards that got connected to frame ground, it took out the bridge rectifier, replacing that brought it back.  However, I have seen others with the same issue, and it obviously did damage further down the line, too much work to try to bring them back.

As far as the RCMC, each one is programmed for the specific engine or at least engine type.  Even if you fix the board, it wouldn't be all that useful unless you had the same engine to put it in.

GGG thank you for the clarity as i'm not an electronic minded person if it has a hot wire and a common wire i'm ok beyond that not so much lol 

GUNRUNNERJOHN   I will assume this old RCMC board that lionel took out of BB is still programed for it? that is why I asked if it was possible to fix in case this one goes belly up I would have another to use in place of as we all know once spare parts are gone no way to use as delivered!