HO Already Using Battery Power? Are State of The Art Control Systems Already Obsolete?

Even if it happens, I suspect I'll be pushing up daisies before O-gauge goes heavily battery powered.

electroliner good question. I also would like to here more about it….. 

I dunno. 

It seems ever year we have some new techno-razzmatazz to worry about and forget more about the actual hobby of model railroading.

Rusty

Why would anyone even want to run battery power?? I'm sure you can pick something up at Toys R Us that will run with batteries.

I am just curious.I had no idea this was in use. I have no plans on changing anything. The thought of reinventing my wheel makes me want to take up building bird feeders instead.

One thought that came to mind on a subject that interests me is outdoor O gauge and the use of control systems that G gauge already uses.

Well, G scale layouts have been using batteries for years, so it can be done. I assume it depends upon the physical size of the battery versus the battery's capacity to hold a charge sufficient to move a train for a good amount of time. Accessories and switches could work off DC power.

No surprise really, given that most of us are already driving battery powered cars.

I for one would prefer trains that will run longer than 5 or 10 minutes ( or less) before needing to be recharged for 8 hours. I suspect a big difference in a n H.O. 0-4-0 versus a die cast o guage  locomotive pulling 30 or 40 cars possibly diecast as well.

I imagine each passenger car would need a battery, and a recharge(er), this could get expensive.......and then of course battery powered accessories, buildings, etc.

I have a battery operated train that we use for track cleaning at the club   It uses the Aristo Craft Train Engineer Revolution system  Unfortunately Arist Craft went out of business  I was speaking to Louis Polk and he says the Crest lectronics division of Aristo Craft might be a separate company soon and reintroduce all the products

Yeah, the added expense would be a barrier but then theres added expense in the current control systems....and the problem of sending signals through the track ( based on posts here) I am not advocating this. Just curious inasmuch as all this stuff seems to evolve faster than I can keep up with it.

It already is a separate outfit called GenX or something like that.

Oh?  Most of us are driving Leaf's or Tesla's? 

A gasoline auto will still run with a dead battery after it's been jump started.

Admittedly, my Escape hybrid can go about a mile solely on battery if conditions are right, but combusting gasoline still provides the majority of git-up-n-go.

Rusty

quote:

No surprise really, given that most of us are already driving battery powered cars.

I have seen one or two electric cars in my area.

I have a good friend who is GM factory certified to repair their electric car. Anybody care to guess how many have come into their shop for service?

I thought that had already happened? Pretty sure I saw some ads somewhere (maybe Garden RW's mag?) for Crest (or something like that) from the old Aristo-Craft folks? Will have to go back through some recent magazines.

Lionel has achieved remote/command control directly from the handheld to the loco of their Lionchief system offerings, no track signals (or base for that matter) required.

So, I guess, "theoretically" its halfway there, only a battery power setup is needed

Battery-powered loco's are popular in G gauge for several reasons:

1. The G gauge loco's are large enough to accommodate a battery that can provide power for a reasonable amount of running time.

2. Most G gauge layouts are outdoors where the track is subject to the elements.  Keeping the rails clean enough to ensure good power transmission to the loco's is very challenging. 

3. Many G gauge outdoor layouts are very large and require long runs of heavy duty wire (10-12 gauge) to ensure no voltage drops.

4. Power transformers don't do well in outdoor conditions.  So, the wiring has to run from indoor transformers out to the outdoor track.

I have an indoor G gauge layout.  Since I don't have to deal with all the issues of outdoor weather, I use track power.  Also, since I have so much fun dealing with incompatible command control systems in O gauge, I do the same thing in G gauge (DCS, LGB's MTS, and Conventional).

I know battery operation is popular in Garden size for outdoor layouts, but was unaware of the HO battery powered items. I do know the HO folks have a lot of trouble with track problems, dirty, lack of voltage, dead spots, etc. I will be checking into the HO links provided in your original post starting the thread. All the HO track problems are one reason I like our 3rd rail.

I do try to follow the DCC stuff a little bit, as I am interested in all the command control systems including DCC. I read several other magazines that cover it and 2 of them are HO and N scale. So far I don't remember seeing an article on battery power though.

There is a guy who has a hobby shop in nearby Nanticoke who uses batteries to power his HO and On30 and other in between stuff that he runs. He claims to get about 6 hours of run time on a charge per locomotive. He still uses remote control to operate, but no track power. This is essentially as close to prototypical operation as one can get without live steam or gas power. I would imagine with today's battery technology, the same principal can be applied to O gauge. I never considered the passenger car lighting aspect, but I would suppose if the locomotive wheels were isolated from the track, track power could be employed for car lighting and auxiliary smoke units in cabooses or other operating cars and accessories.

Don

20 years ago I had a Bachmann Big Hauler that was battery powered RC I used under the Christmas tree a few years.

Maybe 10 years ago when I was into On30 there was a modular group in Texas who's layout was totally battery powered. They scavenged RC cars to to get parts for speed control and direction control. RC car batteries were hidden in tenders and boxcars.

I think if I were to ever give up conventional control it would be for RC.

As I recall the 2-rail scale layout up in Holly Michigan had battery powered locos when I visited their layout over 30 years ago.  That predated all the command control systems of MTH and Lionel.

.....

Dennis

I am also waiting for widespread use of battery power in O-Scale. I buy 2-rail trains. I have a low-end DC Power-Pack & was thinking about buying a DCC Starter set but after reading about some battery powered systems on the 2-rail forum earlier this year I have put my DCC plans on hold. The concern that the current control systems could become outdated has also influenced me to greatly reduce the number of locomotives I buy. Most of the purchases this year have been freight cars which I think would be unaffected by the switch to battery-powered trains.

Then again I only have room for a temporary loop on the floor. At this stage in my career, I don’t see myself living in my current house for more than a few years. Maybe when I am read to build a permanent layout in about 5 years, the battery powered technology would be more mature & widely available.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Battery technology is getting better each year.  The RC airplane hobby uses battery powered planes a lot.  This technology can be adapted to model trains. 

The biggest problem with battery power is having a charged battery when you want to run your trains.  We have several people who run battery powered G gauge trains on the G&O garden railroad.  They all have to remember to charge their trains before bringing them to the club.

One fellow always forgets to charge his trains.  It takes an hour to charge the battery before he is ready to run.  This really becomes a problem when a person has multiple engines and only one battery charger.  

Battery works well in G gauge because most G gauge people have only one or two engines.  Also, they seldom run their layouts for hours at a time.  I don't know a single G gauge person who has more than 20 engines as many O gauge people do.

Just look at the problem people have keeping MTH PS-2 batteries charged so that they can run whenever they want.  This why many people have switched PS-2 batteries to BCRs.  Imagine what would happen if you couldn't run any engines until they were fully charged.  

The G&O garden railroad just bought a Crest system for G gauge.  Crest is definitely in business but getting product is slow.  

Joe

I have been ready for an inexpensive battery/RC setup.  When track and wheels are clean, I get very smooth operation, but lately I am flying more and railroading less, so the track seems eternally dirty.  We two- railers will jump at the chance.

The problem - two railers do not have the market power to make this happen.  Three railers will never go for it, because then they would have no excuse at all for the center rail.  If they did go for it, the toy train market would revolutionize overnight.  The technology is there - the only obstacle is nostalgia.

Opinion.

I almost fell over when I spotted this forum thread. I have been running a battery operated R/C OGauge train on my portable demo layout for close to a year. It's great when you are demonstrating and there is no AC outlet close by. The October issue of LCCA's magazine The Lion Roars has the complete details on how to build one. A video of my design in operation is posted on the LCCA website and on youtube. Best yet, it's a very inexpensive setup.

Looking at the link in the OP, I'd say at $50.00 a pop for a single battery unit this is not going to go very far in HO. Especially when you factor in you also need a transmitter to talk with the loco, and a receiver of some type in the loco to control it since there's no track power.

Wireless DCC throttles talk to the command station, not directly to the loco. So to use this battery pack with DCC you would need a DCC receiver for each loco.

So my thinking is this may be useful in some situations, but I don't think it's going to obsolete existing systems in HO & N any time soon.

Do you have a link? Im still pondering an outdoor O gauge layout....It would be great not to stock two separate gauges for indoor versus outdoor use. I dont need to convert a huge number of engines...a couple would do nicely.

A lot of us have been running MTH large scale trains via battery power for years. Just mount a TIU in a boxcar along with a 24V 10,000 mah battery and your good to go for hours. Also have extra battery packs charged up and ready to swap out.

Biggest reason for going battery power these days is the cost of large scale track, esp. stainless steel as that'll cost $10.00 per foot. Aluminum track can be bought for $2.00 per foot. 1,000' of track will save 8K and that will buy a lot of radios & batteries. All rolling stock has ball bearing wheelsets. Passenger trains are all Led lighting and the cars are daisy chained together so they draw power from the main battery car. 

I run conventional......the main reason is I like to keep it simple.

But cost is also a big factor. Recently I saw a system LEGO uses on the train sets and robotics sets. I think it's IR powered. On the train it is powered by a rechargeable power pack contained in the locomotive. The basic controller included in the set has the ability to control multiple trains with multiple functions. LEGO sells a nice train set with track, Acela like passenger train and complete control system for under $200....and you can add more trains or other remote controlled functions by just buying the needed components. VERY easy to set up...no programing and works every time and very reliable. Why is a control system that works this well and easy only $20 or so?? (LEGO trains w/o the control system are about $20 less) I feel that a simple easy to use cheaper system may be coming.

I don't have any proof of it, but I think O gauge trains have more friction, caused by metal on metal contact and tight radii. Try yanking on the coupler of the first car of your train. Or, just consider Amps * Volts (yeah I know about power factor) of our trains. Axles that both wheels fixed to the axle can't help either - but I think all gauges have that.

Really?  Where did that statistic come from?  

quote:

No surprise really, given that most of us are already driving battery powered cars.

Hm. You don't get out much, do you?

There are many, MANY, places in the US that requires a sizable commute from lesser populated areas (some downright desolate) to a larger populated area in order to be gainfully employed.  I am one of them.  Around these parts, I've never even SEEN a battery powered vehicle. The people I'm around have zero interest in owning one (they're too limiting with dubious "supposed" environmental gains). In fact, you couldn't run fast enough to pour one on me.

As for battery powered model trains: To each his own.  I suspect DCC will still be around for a while longer. At least long enough for me to be past my productive modeling years.

Note to all: Play with your trains and be happy. Try not to wring hands too much over what "may" happen.

In trying to find a statistic pertaining to electric cars, it seems that the market share of electric car sales in the U.S. is 26%, hardly a majority as i understand it.  

Happy training, it's what we're about.

I would bet much less than 25%. 

I've seen a couple of Tesla's on my commute home on the tollway and a couple of Leaf's running around in the 'burbs.  But I still see more Volts, Priuses, Ford and Hyundai hybrids than all-electric cars.  And of course, gas burners which appear to outnumber all of the above.

There was even someone locally who had a Leaf, but I haven't seen it around since last year's polar vortex came to town.  I suspect all-electric cars are generally not very fond of Chicago winters.

Rusty

It is true there are not many pure electric cars running around - they are expensive, and mostly quite ugly (opinion).  Some day somebody (Tesla?) will make a good-looking version - say, a Corvette - that can go 100 miles between quick charges, for cheap, and then I am in.

It is also true that not many O Scale trains are battery/Rc powered, but the obstacles, as pointed out above, are no longer there.  When it is $50/locomotive, I am in.  That day is very close, as indicated by the Lego reference above.  Waiting for battery power does not affect my enjoyment of the hobby.  If it did, I would design the system.

California is probably the largest electric car market.  They are popular in city areas.  The Tesla, which is made about 20 miles from my home, is a very good looking car in my opinion.  I think it is more attractive than the Corvette and I would guess that its acceleration is equal to or better than a Vette's.

My neighbor has a Tesla.  It is awesome.  He recharges his car every night for pennies.  (The SF Bay Area where I live always has the highest gas prices in the nation.  Other cost savings for battery cars are no oil changes, no tune ups, no spark plugs, etc.  The only real maintenance items are brakes and tires.)  

The problem with the current battery powered cars is the limited range.  Tesla is developing a system where batteries can be changed in about the time it takes to fill a gas tank at "battery" service stations.  Tesla has announced plans to install these service stations along all major roads.  I think that "battery" power will take off if these service stations become widely available.  

The other problem with battery power is cost.  A basic Tesla starts at around $60K.  That is too rich for most people including me.  Hybrids are very popular here in CA.  About half of my neighbors have one.  My next car will be a hybrid.  

I think that as battery technology develops, it will become common in model railroading.   We are a few years away from this happening, however.  

Joe

I think the better solution is already available with the "Keep Alive" capacitors used on HO DCC systems. It will allow the locomotive to run over bad spots in trackage without a glitch.

Electric or Hybrid automobiles make sense in California where the "freeways" are really just parking lots. Poking along at 5 - 10 mph in stop and go traffic is not where the gasoline engine is best utilized, unless they start using smart start technology.

The only battery cars I see around here are golf carts. 

The only people I know that have bought hybrid cars do it to make a idealogical statement.

As for battery O gauge, I will wait for the nuclear solution. There will be no need for recharging then.

Fred