How important is the original engine box to you?

That is why you should NEVER do gift with PayPal. No recourse.

I like to keep all of the original boxes my trains came in- they may be wrinkled, faded, maybe an edge or two slightly torn, but the contents match the box. Just how I roll. And it shows a buyer, when and if I sell something, that I care about my trains- sometimes the original box is the best place to store them.

Geno

I would tell the seller I want my money back.  To many mistakes in his ad for him not to know what he was selling.  IMHO his excuses are bogus. If he's in the TCA or LCCA he's obligated to do so.  Doesn't mean he will but it's worth a shot.  If he's within a days drive well, think about it. 

The box being correct is important only if it was supposed to be the correct box. If he got it that way, again his problem not yours.

In my world, just having a box, even if it's the wrong one, is better than none at all. I would re-label it, put it on the shelf, enjoy the engine, and not look back. The only time it will ever come into play is if you sold it or had to ship it for repairs.

I feel for your loss,is this seller very active on the forum.

Mikey

I like locomotives, not boxes.  But you have been the victim of misrepresentation, and there is legal recourse.

Small claims will do it, but you kind of have to go to his state.  Full Faith and Credit does not seem to work for small claims.  You can get a judgment in your state and attach any possessions he has in your state.

opinion

If you are a collector, the box is about 50% of the total price of an engine and/or rolling stock.   +1 for Geno's comment regarding original boxes.

Chief Bob (Retired)

Yes, the seller was in the wrong advertising the item with OB when he knew, or should have known, it was not.  Ultimately, you can follow various alternatives to make the transaction "right" for you--insist on a price adjustment, return the item for a full refund, etc.  But you must decide what is important for you.    

It seems this one is really two different questions.   If you paid for original boxes you should get them.  Even if it is not important to some folks, everyone that buys and sells knows the that some folks do place value on the boxes and therefore if you say original boxes, there is value to that over saying ' random boxes'.  You should look for a refund or at the least, an adjustment in price.  

As for if I place value in a box?  Slightly, but only slightly, and not for the collectable 'value' that many seem to like.  First, I like to keep boxes so that I can properly store things.  Having had to pack everything up many times in my life, I like to know things are safe when stored and the original boxes are very good for that.  Second, and it may not always be true, but I feel like the sort of folks that keep the boxes in good condition are also likely to keep the locomotives themselves in good condition, so I feel better about buying used in a "like new" packaging with all boxes, manuals, and such.  Oddly enough of the several used engines I've purchased, 2 out of three that did not have boxes had mechanical issues that were not noted by the seller, in both cases stripped gears among other things.  Also, I think there are very few people that trash locomotive boxes.  I know many that do with rolling stock, but most keep the locomotive boxes so It worries me not to have one at this point with any relatively modern engine.  

Hope that helps with something for someone.  

JGL

If you have proof such as printing his buy/ sell ad, there seems to be too many discrepancies and misrepresentations!

 I would demand my $$ back if you don't want the loco. Without the right box, for a locomotive that can cost you 35-50% of the loco resale value.

As for original boxes - it was stated they were included and thus was an expectation the seller set, not that you blindly had. Seller must make this right or completely reverse the deal.

For stating that it was Legacy equipped, the buyer should have been able to verify the manufactured locomotive specs beforehand and if they didn't line up, ask the right questions. However, again, the seller stated Legacy and thus again set the expectation.

As for the blown speaker, it is disappointing, but it is possible to give the seller some benefit of doubt here as long as it generated some noise. However, I would research replacement costs and kindly explain to the seller your disappointment and findings and if they would be willing to cover all or some of the costs.

Bottom line, based on the one-sided story here, the seller is at fault for misrepresenting the boxes and Legacy specifications.

Modern era piece (Post 1969) - it is unlikely I would buy anything that did not have the original box. Paperwork too.

if the box wasn't the one original to the engine, the seller should have stated this. you would have to be living under a rock for the last 40 years not to know original boxes are important to a large group. and a bargain price does not mean there should be problems to be expected....again any problems should be listed by the seller.

Almost no value to me, I don't buy trains to resell them.  I don't even worry about what's going to happen to them after I'm gone.  I bought them for my enjoyment, the box only helps if I ever have to move, gives me something to pack them in.

Well said Bob!  I couldn't agree more!  

At train shows, I look for items missing the OB.  The only boxes that I keep are the MTH NS Heritage ones, I think they are really cool! 

First, I'd like to know who the seller is so I stay away. That doesn't seem right in the small brotherhood of enthusiasts.

Boxes, at the end of the day not that important if you keep the engine. However, if you decide to sell the next buyer will expect them.

Second, and it may not always be true, but I feel like the sort of folks that keep the boxes in good condition are also likely to keep the locomotives themselves in good condition, so I feel better about buying used in a "like new" packaging with all boxes, manuals, and such

I used to feel that way. But with the active empty box market (Postwar & prewar), the box as an indicator of condition is just about worthless. I have seen too many lower grade pieces married to boxes.

If not as described in the add, the seller should refund your money, and you should ship him back what he sent you, at your cost for shipping, but that is it. 

As far as boxes go - - - I learned a lesson when I sold my HO collection to get into O-Gauge, seven years ago. A car with its original box was worth $2.50, and the very same car in exactly the same condition, but without the box, was valued at 25¢. Engines were worth about four to five times more if they had the original box.

Now, for all my O-Gauge stuff, I have kept all the boxes - for locomotives, cars, buildings, and accessories. I have the boxes stored under the layout, and have a list of where each box is located. I have only one car set in its box, everything else is on the layout or shelves.

Alex

I like a box but it is not a deal breaker however, now that I have a better understanding of Paypal, the 3 % will always be paid.

Brent

As an operator and NOT a "collector", the locomotive box is still important to, in case I have to re-box it and ship it someplace for repair. I have never saved freight car boxes though.

No Box no Sale.

I have only had good luck selling and buying trains on the Forum. If it was me I would demand a full refund. It sounds to me like this seller can not be trusted and he should have some class and refund your total cost. Again I am surprised that a seller on the forum would be a jerk and give you a hard time and then a story about its what in the box that counts, NO! it's what you said you are selling!

He advertise with false claims. Buying off the net is always risky. And from OGR you have no backup.

Yes having the correct box is important but it's not a deal breaker for me. Many trains are sold without any boxes.

Under these circumstances..you are absolutely right.  Get full satisfaction or full refund...insist that the seller pay the freight too !   For me, it depends on the vintage of the peeze, if I demand an original box or not.  I buy 99% of my PW Lionel without the OB.  Modern trains...just the opposite.  Only ever bought one Locomotive without a box from the "modern era".   I've sold a number of chooches with the wrong, or repro box, but the customer knows this before the deal goes down!

Don,

Sorry to hear what happened. I have kept most of my engine boxes, not for value but for storage if need be. Most of my other boxes are in the trash. His ad misrepresented the product and he should give you a refund. For this reason, I always pay the 3%. Hope you get this resolved,

Bob

The fact that the box was for the correct type of engine, but not labeled with the correct roadname, should have been noted by the seller. I always mention things like that when I am selling trains. The incorrect road name is of no concern to me in and of itself, since the box will fit the engine properly and protect it, but an honest seller does full disclosure. The rest of the deal, advertising it as a Legacy engine when it wasn't, etc. - that's fraud. 

The lack of a box on a modern engine would be a red flag for me. Newer, scale engines have a lot of little details that are likely to be damaged if the unit is shipped without the correct box. I've bought engines without the box, but only at a steep discount. 

Were there pictures?  (any, just the engine, etc?)

From the descriptive text provided, the seller misled you. 

-Dave

My self I keep ever box for all my stuff and have boxes for stuff that I don't have or will never go back in the box. I never know if I will get an item to go in those boxes but nice to know we have them. 

As for the seller he or she. Shouldn't sell on this forum. I would report them to Richard and have them band if they would not accept a return on item. We don't need that carp pulled here. Should be honest about what there selling.

BReece posted:

I like a box but it is not a deal breaker however, now that I have a better understanding of Paypal, the 3 % will always be paid.

Brent

 

I don't know the exact circumstances of the sale in question, but worth noting that the gift option is just that, offering no recourse.  Also, as a seller it is a direct violation of Pay-Pal's terms of service to ask a higher fee when taking pay-pal as a form of payment.  To the buyer the price should be the same no matter how they pay, and any losses to the seller in fees should be recouped by raising the price to cover.

I run my trains to death, couldn't care less about boxes!

  The whole deal sounds like a case of fraud to me, many items mis-represented, and many defects not disclosed, the seller should offer a full refund, including return shipping, it was HIS inaccuracies that lead to the problem.

As the box issue, I will NOT buy an expensive locomotive without the PROPER box any more. I have had enough without box purchases to know that highly detailed locomotives are too fragile to ship any other way. I don't care HOW WELL a seller promises to pack something, a Vision Line Big Boy shipped in anything other than it's original box is just a recipe for damage.

I collect for Enjoyment not Investment, but many people besides myself find value in the proper packaging, and I will not take the loss in value for the missing packaging. If I were to buy without OB's it would be at a STEEPLY DISCOUNTED price, and in person where I was transporting it home, not being shipped.

 There are plenty of other reasons to want the boxes as well, such as safely storing and/or moving the locomotive, these locomotives now days are expensive enough that IN MY OPINION, it is FOOLISH, to NOT keep the boxes. Yes I understand storage can be a challenge, but these are not refrigerator boxes, a little creativity can go a long ways, and the boxes don't need to be stored for convenient immediate access.

To ME, the proper box is Important for MANY reasons, to some others not so much, we each value such things in our own way,

Doug

No Box no Sale. I also would like to know who it is since I buy a lot from the forum. Never had a problem.

I know that's not possible and it's a good rule in reality. It would just cause more and more problems. But there is the send me e-mail side of it for those interested in not havening to deal with a  bad seller in the future

Just a thought.

Larry

I've kept the boxes for most of my modern locomotives but not the rolling stock or accesories.Whilst unpacking new trains for display,  I filled a 20' dumpster with styrofoam car cradles and recycled the cardboard components. The whole collectable box thing is unimportant and overated - to me. I tried to give away 100's of original postwar Lionel boxes with no takers a few years ago. All someone had to do was pay shipping. It all went to the recycling bin. Having an original box is not important to me so I will not pass on a purchase because it has it's original box or not. 

As far as the original poster's dillemma is concerned,the seller should make things right or refund the OP's funds.

Absolutely important. Unless it's a good deal on a Proto 1 diesel, I prefer boxes.  I refuse to purchase any HO scale locomotives off of ebay without box ~ they'll arrive in pieces.

I do expect to pay less for a newish item if the original box is missing, though the box itself means nothing to me, except that it has to come - if shipped, of course - in a box of some kind, so it's nice if there. I do not buy items to resell, though I do sell items (not the same thing). Typically, I save all locomotive and complex rolling stock boxes. Most cars, when taken out and placed on the layout, the box then goes in the trash. I don't like doing it, but, really, get a grip (I say to myself).

The seller mentioned at the beginning of this thread, however, is showing a cavalier and maybe dishonest attitude toward a transaction and the buyer. Common decency makes his behavior invalid.

hah3 posted:

......................

As for the seller he or she. Shouldn't sell on this forum. I would report them to Richard and have them band if they would not accept a return on item. We don't need that carp pulled here. Should be honest about what there selling.

 

 

I'm pretty sure Rich will want no part in this. 

When the Buy Sell forum was added, it was emphatically stated that it was caveat emptor, be comfortable with the person you are dealing with.  There is not to be any kind of "feedback" system, etc.  That is why posts get deleted if they name such.

For 99% of transactions this is fine.  For the one Don had, it seems he was taken advantage of.

-Dave

The person you bought the items from sounds like a real dick. I always ask questions especially items at a lower than usual price. A bargain price should not automatically mean unspecified issues are to be expected. And yes, boxes are important, at least to me. I would not buy anything without the box. Outer shipping carton is nice to have but not a deal breaker.

It's sad that not all online purchases are nice. I just went through a bad experience with a very popular model railroad seller on ebay. I ended up having to file a complaint with Paypal. Paypal came through wonderfully and I got a full refund and apology within two weeks. Since it was originally established, Paypal has saved me a lot of money from bad deals (model train goodies, art, electronics, etc.). Prior to Paypal, I lost many hundreds of dollars to dishonest online sellers. If original boxes are important to you and a seller says they're part of the deal, well then, they're VERY important. You sound like a nice guy. Don't let people take advantage of you. That sounds hard but to let these types get by with this just encourages them in their skulduggery. 

you guys that pitch out the boxes may think you dont need them....for now, but things have a way of changing....i dont buy anything without the ob...                                                                                                 i can understand ogr not getting involved,but the least they could do is restrict his postings for a while,until he gets his act together...Jim

The very first lines in the Buy/Sell rules post says OGR will not get involved.

We basically need to evaluate any offer on our own and only proceed if we are comfortable.

Some stuff to look for:

• Is the seller a regular OGR participant?  Or did he just join yesterday to try to sell (or worse, scam)?
• Even if the seller is newer, does he have posts anywhere other than buy/sell?  If some one is participating in the Scenery, Electrical, TMCC, etc forums, I'd believe he is a real hobby participant and not just a possible scammer or unscrupulous seller.
• Back to the posts thing, while # of posts doesn't necessarily track directly to honesty, if there is a single post 3 years ago to join the forum and then the one for sale thread, I'd be weary.  It seems we can't easily search the forum members by ranking or post count anymore with the new format (quite possibly intentional), but even though the "community ranking" was contentious in some ways, it was useful for seeing "members" who registered and then never made a single post.  There are probably thousands of them registered.

Even if you consider these and other things, sometimes there will just be disagreements, but the original topic at hand sounds dishonest (as presented).

-Dave