How was York?

Jim....in a word, "Fun!"

Peter

It was not crowded.  I noted that there were approximately 50% of the normal amount of RVs/Campers that would normally be parked at the fairgrounds.  Not sure if this is due wholly to the high price of gas or if due to fewer people attending, I suspect a combination of both.

I left York without buying anything, but my collecting interests are very specific at this point and I did not see any American Flyer prewar O gauge items that were in the condition I was looking for or simply that I desired.

NWL

Agree with NWL; I spent about six hours roaming the halls on Friday and noticed the lighter attendance. I think the transition of the Orange Hall away from the big manufacturers and toward dealers is indicative of York’s possible transition back toward the original member-driven format. Whatever, still a great time. Found half of what I was looking for; came up short on the search for a few 400-series prewar Flyer freights (saw lots of 3400-series though). I’ll be back.

PD

I spent $15 on train stuff.  The rest on food, beverages, and tips.  I enjoyed myself.  I do think we are entering a new phase of this meet.  I suspect within 5 years time it will be an all members selling and most if not all of the vendors gone.

The white hall should be closed and those folks condensed into the other halls.  Thursday morning seemed pretty good but as others stated the attendance is not there as it once was.  This isn't a knock at the EDTCA, it is the reality of online sales, and the cost of going there.

While I would love to have another Legacy meeting I just don't think it's in the cards due to difficulties of securing a time and place within the meet and especially if Lionel remains away which to be honest I think they are done going to York.  Who knows though.

I still had fun, saw a lot of friends and had a decent Traincation.  Thanks to all the volunteers of the EDTCA for another fine meet.

@Putnam Division posted:

Jim....in a word, "Fun!"

Peter

Wow! I’ve never seen so many ugly mugs in one place!

This was my second York since the reopening after the pandemic. It all seemed depressive to me when I think about what it was 5 years ago. Crowds way down, very few dealers. Didnt buy anything. Drove for 5 1/2 hrs to get there on Thursday then drove 5 1/2 hrs back home. I think I have just attended my last York. Price of fuel, turnpike tolls, and time driving is just turning out to be more of a hassle than it was when I was younger.  BTW........You guys who were wearing masks......Thank you for not making me feel all alone.

I've been attending York since April of 1984. I haven't missed one....yet! I remember it being so crowded that they were parking cars on the infield of the race track. Negotiating the aisles was a challenge but exciting. My focus has changed over the years, having moved from a postwar collector, to a guy looking for good deals on the MPC/LTI product, to now a days (disappointedly) looking for the manufacturers to show what they are producing and looking for preproduction samples of things I had preordered from the catalog. In the past, Lionel's displaying and demonstrating new products has convinced me to make some large purchases that I otherwise might have passed on, most recently, the Vision Line Niagara. For me, without Lionel and many of the larger dealers who brought lots of new product, York has become little more than a social event, a chance to catch up with friends I've made over the 38 years I've been attending, and occasionally looking for something in particular that I was not able to find for sale on the internet.

As of today I'm not sure if I'm attending in April. But that's today being sore from walking 3.7 miles according to my Health App. I wish Lionel and the Eastern Division would come to a mutually beneficial agreement for the sake of their customers and membership respectively.

@NYC Fan posted:

As of today I'm not sure if I'm attending in April. But that's today being sore from walking 3.7 miles according to my Health App. I wish Lionel and the Eastern Division would come to a mutually beneficial agreement for the sake of their customers and membership respectively.

Unfortunately a lot of the spot light has been put only on Lionel.  Let's be fair, many of the manufacturers and vendors have decided to pass on York, Lionel just being the big one.  If I recall about 10 years ago it was MTH threatening not to come. I wish Lionel and all the others would come back but I don't think it's all that simple anymore given the current business climate.  The manufacturers while able to show off their goods don't sell a thing and most of who they are showing their goods to are already committed (or should be ) to the hobby and the products.

It's my opinion that there are some other factors keeping some of them away as well.  Just my opinion, no inside information.

Well, as still relative “newbies” to the hobby compared to many of you, I enjoyed the show. My wife goes with me and we both had a good time. As I usually find with major shows, interesting stuff comes out of the woodwork that only comes out at a major show and that you don’t see at more local shows.

My wife and I enjoyed looking through the halls for interesting rolling stock- we always find pieces at York that we either haven’t seen before or haven’t seen anywhere else. We are not dedicated to any one road name or names and like to purchase items that will have great eye appeal on our “under construction” first layout.

As for the major dealers no longer attending- I “get it”- it does take a bit of the “rush” out of the event. But, on the other hand, they are usually all selling the same items as they are dealers in newly released items from the major manufacturers. There were still a number of “next level down” dealers present and I found the selection of new/recently released items to be quite good. Kudos to Mr. Muffins Trains for the trek from Indiana with his two vehicles. The Muffins brought a nice selection of new and recent releases from MTH, Lionel and Atlas. I must have gone to their booth four times whittling down the choices for a diesel purchase. Ended up with the one that first hit me- a MTH Chicago Great Western GP7.

Also found a few pieces from Just Trains from Delaware, and a nice MTH diesel from The Train Shop in Raymond New Hampshire. Finding an unpowered Atlas UP GP7 to go with my powered unit was a great find for me as it seems most of this release disappeared fairly quickly due to the preorders from about 5 years ago. Doug at Todd Architectural Models is very nice to purchase from and we picked up a couple of his shadow boxes for our layout background.

Regarding pricing, I felt that everyone we dealt with was fair and willing to negotiate their prices within reason so that we both went away happy. Most prices I found to be very fair even without negotiation, compared to what you see online like EBay- plus the savings on taxes and high shipping costs. I respect the fact that many of the dealers have come a considerable distance to be at this show along with the attendant expenses and time. They have to make a fair profit or they won’t be back with the result that the show will get ever smaller. I am grateful for those dealers who still make the investment of time and money to be there.  
So, all in all, even though the show is smaller without Nicholas Smith, Charles Ro and Trainworld, it is still, for us, the best O gauge show that we attend.

@Theo posted:

So, all in all, even though the show is smaller without Nicholas Smith, Charles Ro and Trainworld, it is still, for us, the best O gauge show that we attend.

TrainWorld was there they just didn't bring anything to sell. They set up a display of their custom runs. If you wanted them you needed to get on-line and order them.

Scott Smith

Did you ever see, three days go by as fast as these.

I also had a great time.  In spite of prices being stupidly high, I enjoyed myself.  I didn't have any big items on my list, but did find some nice smaller buys that made me happy.  For example:

• A 1951 Ford F1 pickup with rust colored weathering on the fenders, hood, roof, and trunk bed.  It looks like a vehicle that has been parked outside for a few days in a steel mill town during the 1950s.  Now where have I seen that before...?  
• 3 metal frames from some post-war junk that will make great supports for a pipe bridge or other industrial structure somewhere in the steel mill area of the layout.
• Some old plastic generators from post-war searchlight cars for the deck of an Open Hearth charging machine.

Saw some friends and had a good time walking around.  "A bad day at a train show beats a great day at work!"

George

I went for my first time. It was fun and I'll likely attend again since I'm close, but not much I wanted. Seemed like a lot of overpriced postwar stuff, some just straight junk. Lots of 736s in average condition asking $400 for example when I can get one in better condition on ebay for under $300 all day long after shipping and taxes.

I picked up a Marx yard light in great condition for $10. I almost got a Reading diesel AA set but the seller Hulked it out of the styrofoam and broke a piece off of the diecast truck and I passed.

Trainz had a deal the week before where they'd bring the items to York to save on shipping. I got a working 282 gantry crane for $73 after a $10 off coupon code. It's great!

I find York today to be a a very different experience from the crowded, fast paced show 10-20 years ago that would wear me out.  This is especially true regarding less manufactures and dealers.  Even compared to last fall, it seems smaller and quieter.  However, I still have a good time and buy a lot, it just all feels much less intense.  

I didn't go this time but I thought the Spring 2022 York meet was the smallest I've seen since I started going (in 2007), and honestly, was quite depressing.   It takes me 3 hours of driving each way and we spent about 3 hours total at the meet.   I thought the Fall 2021 meet was great and was hopefully an indication of the meets getting back to their hay days.

How would you compare this meet to the Spring 2022?

When I go to York, i go with my father. He’s been selling at York (usually twice a year) since the 80s. I couldn’t go this year due to parents weekend at my son’s college. Dad said the show was way down. Lots of chatter, not much buying. For the first time ever, he packed up and left on Friday. As a few others mentioned above, he told me it may be his last time going.  I went to York to be with Dad and visit with the dealers and manufacturers, so my days may be numbered as well.

I was not able to go this year for a few reasons, but when I make it there in another year or so it will be my first time in a couple decades.  Havent been since I went as a guest with the owner of the Lionel shop I did repair work for.  I just actually joined TCA after many years of saying I was going to do it.  Not even sure they have TCA shows in central Indiana anymore, I know they used to.  Still have to officially join my local chapter.  With my interests being late prewar Lionel O and OO, along with other lesser known OO items, York seems to bring some of that stuff out of the woodwork going by a few folks finds I see online.   It might not be what it one was, but that goes for many shows.  The show at the Dupage Co. fairgrounds in Wheaton IL is a shadow of what it was 10 years ago.  The Great American shows used to take over the whole convention center in Indy, now at the fairgrounds and you could roll a bowling ball down the isles and hit nobody.  Still excited to make it to my first York show in the near future, just a very long drive(I am 30min drive from Mr Muffins shop).      AD

Santa was a frequent sight roaming the October aisles a decade ago...where has the big man gone?

I echo other's comments.  This meet was definitely smaller than April.

That being said, I still found stuff to buy and there were good deals to be found, though I found numerous vendors who's pricing did not reflect reality.  Their loss.

While the York of even 5 years ago won't be back I will keep going as I enjoy seeing my friends from around the country and even a day of York is better than a day at work.

Just look at the breakfast and Quaker Steak threads - everyone is still having fun and we're only one small component of those who go.

-Greg

This was my 20th year going. I have typically made both Spring and Fall meets. This time I had my 22 year-old son with me for the first time in about 10 years, as we are getting ready to build a new layout. We had a big list.  I was shocked at how low attendance was, and even more shocked at the lack of vendors in Orange, and NONE in Purple. It was truly sad. I found myself telling him over and over, "well, this vendor used to be right here and this is what we would have looked at and bought here today, but we won't be". We bought little because the vendors we were expecting weren't there. So overall, extremely disappointing, however, we had two highlights: Great demos at  Millhouse River Studios of their coal handling accessories, and getting personal service from Steve Brenneisen at the Ross both where we ordered some switches.  

If this is to be the York situation going forward, I see no reason to go back.  Hopefully it is just a dip in the cycle.

//S

I had a great time.  I was there for 5 days.  I bought a bunch of stuff everyday.  It seemed more stuff got put out as table space became available.   

I did not miss Lionel being there at all. 

I actually thought the show was about the same size as April.  I'm sure Mike has all the data on that.

It's not the same as the 80s and 90s.   But what is?

I feel sorry for anyone who drove 5 1/2 hours and didn't buy anything.  I drive 1744 miles each way, about 27 hrs.  Since the 80s I've always found things I wanted.  It's a long 2 day trip there, but worth it.

FANTASTIC (of course).

Tuesday and Wednesday the bandit meets were cold, damp and windy. Thursday and Friday at the fairgrounds were sunny and warmer.

I posted my haul on the "Buy anything cool lately" thread

Trying understand the posts about major manufacturers not attending.  
MTH and Atlas were in the orange hall.
Smaller manufacturers like Ross etc were also there.  
The only missing manufacturer was Lionel.

I like the new layout of vendors in the Orange hall, lots of new vendors there too.

What did you think of the changes? I thought for the better

I would like to commend the people who had the fun? job of setting up the dealer hall.   I think there was another show there this past weekend, and when l entered at noon on  Thursday, tables were like a corn field maze.  But Friday.... You could walk.theough it again. They must have worked overnight making rows!   I found some, not all, of stuff l was looking for, some of which were coal fired Vanderbilt tenders, cheapies, to bash... BUT l could have bought the second C&O  F-19 Pacific l have ever seen, first in auction years ago, and practically drooled on its tender, which l viewed up close. I passed it twice, was gone Friday. Still wish it had been built as a Mikado, but then l would have made an expensive purchase . How many were made of that Lionel F-19....?  I think not many..

@Lyinel posted:

Trying understand the posts about major manufacturers not attending.  
MTH and Atlas were in the orange hall.
Smaller manufacturers like Ross etc were also there.  
The only missing manufacturer was Lionel.

MTH was last minute. Yes others were there but as far as a big presence they might as well not had been there compared to past meets. But a least they did come.

It’s a new meet. Change is here.

I got there early Thursday, weather was perfect for the entire meet, lots of traffic through the booth, and the layouts were really good this time.  I didn't recognize Marty until I saw his nametag, he needs a new profile picture.

The meet has changed alot. Fewer tables in the member halls and very few manufacturers. Even with that it remains to be the greatest train show on earth. I had limited funds so I didn't go wild with buying trains. My best buy was this 500 series Lionel stockcar for only $20.00. I missed out on some other things that I should bought when I saw them. They were several streamlined Marx set for under $40.00. They didn't last long enough for me to take a second look. Had a great time at Quaker Steak.

Scott Smith

Got there on Thursday and I had a blast for all three days! Time really flew by while I was there and before I realized it it was already Saturday and I had already filled the back of my car as well. I really enjoyed my first time at York and look forward to more.

As always, I enjoyed immensely. Yes, times have changed so let’s be thankful we still have the York meet.

Anything I previously posted does not mean I didn't enjoy the meet. Just observations. As George said a bad day at a train meet is still better than a good day (or 2) at work.

That's the guy I saw wearing Marty's badge!

I went there to find 2 specific items.  Didn't find either but still managed to fill the car up with things I realized I "needed" when I saw them.  Got a number of bargains that were just too good to pass up.  Missed out on a couple of things because I still haven't learned that "if you see it, buy it".  Even after being a member of TCA for over 50 years.

I like the layout of the tables in the halls.  With the aisles open, since sellers now sit behind the tables, and fewer attendees you can now more easily navigate the halls.

As usual enjoyed seeing friends I only see twice a year,

Another good York. While they could combine the white and red halls, I think the Orange was filled almost to capacity. Did see some empty floor space for more vendors. Still EDTCA does a great job putting on the show twice a year.
Bought some deals there:

4 Williams Madison cars, plastic trucks for $20!!

3 - Lionel postwar 2400 series cars for $30. 7 passenger cars for the Monmouth museum layout.

A postwar 1615 switcher with the original engine box for $75 from a fellow OGR forum member.
And a KLine Baker’s chocolate boxcar for $6. Baker’s is part of Kraft Foods when I worked there. I collect the Kraft and Nabisco cars when I find them.

This was my 30th year going and was York #56 for me. I’ll be back in April 2023!

Speaking of Marx, l saw a lot of what used to be rare Marx, that the infamous internet, chased out of attics, but some that IS rare, like a bunny train with three of the Easter cars, several of the plastic E's, l think one Pa.  and lots of now common ATSF stock cars, several uncommon,  and several grossly overpriced common sets.  More Marx than l have seen there in years, on Thursday. Much was gone later Friday.  Those, uh,"more mature" members may remember the announcement over the loudspeakers when a fellow from Florida had his kid scammed out of a bunny train, THEN worth four figures, with a chickenfeed offer the kid , did not know not to accept.  It was a very good York, 

York is my favorite show, and I'll always go as long as it's held.  I always knew the show would change, it just has happened quicker than I thought.  All the years I have been going and have never seen the purple hall empty like that, but the layouts were nice.  Since I collect and run modern trains, I too am disappointed by the absence of the large dealers and the much smaller manufacturer presence.  Like Marty said, and I agree, I don't think they're coming back, and that's a hard change for me to see.

I know everything, including our hobby, changes.  But I hope there isn't a large scale shift to virtual only events.  I do enjoy watching the presentations, and I'm glad they can reach a wide audience, however I'm of the belief that nothing beats an in-person train show.  For me this is especially true when you get to meet people and see new products in person when manufacturers/vendors come.  Several of my purchases over the years occurred because the manufacturer was showing and demonstrating the item.  I'll always remember when Lionel showed off the VL Big Boy in October before it was catalogued in January, that made quite the impression on me and many I'm sure.  If shows like York continue to shrink, we won't get to see as many people because they won't come.

I don't mean to sound pessimistic; the show was great, there was lots to see, and I know York will likely be around for a long time in some form.  These were just some of my thoughts as I was walking around and struck by some of the changes.  Thank you to the EDTCA, volunteers, vendors, and attendees who make the show possible.  Hope you all had a great time, and safe travels.   

I believe that their was a lot more people than in April. I will get those figures next week. I had tables in the Blue hall and I did very well. One person on here said it was damp. I didn't feel any dampness anywhere. I got there on Sunday, The weather was ok. It was very cold and windy all week.  We did Lancaster, and Gettysburg, and all the bandit shows. I will put on a bunch of pictures of the bandit shows at the Wyndham in a couple of days.             

Me not being able to attend, I sort of wonder if the manufacturers will attend other meets like Amherst? I don't know all the shows that they make the rounds on other than that and York, so it will be interesting to see what they all do going forward.

While them not being present isn't the end of the world, it does leave a gap in two way communication between us and them in a personal space. It is far easier to chat with Ryan about some of the concerns about quality, problems, or just anything that comes to mind in person that via emails that sometimes don't get answered. I know that I have enjoyed the direct conversations far better than emails.

Having said all that, York will still survive as long as we allow it whatever changes may be coming. See what you feel like come the new day.

I've attended every York since Fall '98 and this fall was the first that I limited my browsing to the "dealer" (orange) and "layout" (purple) halls; therefore I can't comment on fall '22's red/white/blue/silver hall experience.  This show I went on Friday.  I've gone on Fridays for the past 7 or 8 years; prior meets were Saturday due to my available schedule.

IMHO FRI's parking lot seemed to have a significant increase in cars but also a significant drop in RV's as compared to what I thought was the all time low levels in APR '22 (where there also was a vast empty area within the center of the Orange dealer hall).  The amount of people in Orange seemed slightly higher than recent meets. My purchase's were down significantly from prior meets.  I think my biggest single ticket item was just $40 and overall spent was between $100-$120.  This is the first meet that I didn't purchase a loco(s) or major layout component.  FWIW, I spent about $300 at Costco after I left the FRI meet.  I was happy to see Mr. Muffin, JustTrains of DE, Pete Costa/Town&Country, Grzyboski's, and Nassau Hobby, probably the remaining larger new product dealers to attend; The amount of "new product" is obviously down compared to prior, but that's the current state of the hobby.  Also good to see Ross Custom Switches, Millhouse River Studios and East Coast Enterprises (bridges etal).  Pricing seemed to be like all meets: bargains to be found, some fair prices and of course there were some high prices.

Although the EDiv-TCA reports member registrations and the more recent year public attendance sold, the registrations don't necessarily provide a true attendance number (but it's probably the best and only consistent gauge).  I don't recall seeing the summary breakdown of table reservation/sales, a very important revenue number for the meet.  If I had to guess, table revenues have also significantly decreased over the past 5 years (maybe someone can find & report that data).  The loss of the major and secondary dealer/manufacturers table and support revenue is likely material to the E-Div and can have a compounding effect to the meet's future outlook. Combine that with the overall aging demographics and declining membership and it makes it more challenging for the E-Div to have the volunteer personnel and financial resources to maintain the status-quo.    Just an observation, but I thought the number of younger attendees on FRI was higher than I recall seeing at the prior 10 years of meets and that's a GOOD SIGN.

As others either stated or alluded, the meet has definitely changed; downsized and likely more true to its origins, which might still please those dedicated members that prefer the individual member to member trading/selling/social experience.  IMHO, the comments that place social/meet old friends as their priority to go to the meet also strongly reinforces the current non-attendance position of the larger dealers and remaining manufacturers/importers.  Their actual time and money costs to attend don't justify their calculated return of attending this meet/show especially if they can provide the same new product info via a well produced webcast with question/answer option.  I hope to see a rebound of participation like we saw 5 to 10+ years ago, but in all honesty, I think it's doubtful.  York is still a very good show/meet, but it's a shadow of it's former pinnacle glory.  In the past 8 years my interests leaned more towards the beauty and shine of modern tinplate, a segment whose production has sadly completely disappeared.  I've come to the point where I think I "have enough" scale and/or traditional O-gauge to keep me happy.  Next April and Oct will determine if I decide to end my 24 year attendance streak.