Interconnected loops running DCS or Conventional

Vince,

This would mean that somehow the 4 variable channels (between the 2 TIU's) would have to be linked so that their voltages would all adjust together from commands from the DCS remote.  Can this be done?

Yes, it can be done. However, there  is a caveat.

Once you have set up TIU tracks for all 4 of the variable channels, you can control them as a group by;

• Pressing TR
• Pressing soft key S!, "ALL"
• Selecting "ALL TIU TRACKS" and pressing the thumbwheel.

You will now see a screen that states "ALL TIU TRACKS". The caveat is that, as soon as you click the thumbwheel up once, track voltage will go to 18 volts. You ail have to lower the voltage to zero and then all ail work as you would expect.

However, if you lower voltage to zero and go to anotherr screen, for example to run a command engine, when you press TR you will once again have to select the ALL soft key and then deal with the one click going to 18 volts.

This is a DCS "feature" that should be corrected ion a future DCS release.

BTW, the above information is in The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition on pages 31-32, and referenced on page 64.

This and a whole lot more is all in "The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", now available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book from MTH's web store site! Click on the link below to go to MTH's web page for the book!

My question is whether I can run conventional (using the DCS remote) on the 2 conventional loops and have a train switch between the 2 loops (effectively 1 big loop).  This would mean that somehow the 4 variable channels (between the 2 TIU's) would have to be linked so that their voltages would all adjust together from commands from the DCS remote.  Can this be done?

No not very well . You can set up 2 var channels to act as one voltage wise (tiu tracks) but the whistle , bell and dir only work on one channel at a time. you have to keep changing channels with the remote.The starting voltage is also full blast, not so great with Lionel engines that power up in forward.

Since it doesn't really matter what the dcs  signal is for conventional, maybe you can arrange a few toggle switches to meet your requirements.

Would one 180 brick be enough power for all the conventional track?

The  toggle could switch between command (4 bricks) and conventional (one of the 4 bricks)

If you had a Z-4000 it'd be a piece of cake with the z-4000 receiver thingy. I don't have one.  I'm in the same boat as you power wise and gave up on conventional running.

Gregg,

You can set up 2 var channels to act as one voltage wise (tiu tracks) but the whistle , bell and dir only work on one channel at a time.

Please explain. Exactly what happens with two engines on two loops, controlled by ALL TIU TRACKS, when the whistle button is pressed?

Thanks for the quick replies.

I missed the reference to this in your book, Barry.  I have the ebook, but I may buy the hardcopy, too...the ebook just isn't conducive to reading through it..at least not to me.

Gregg referenced a toggle switch which sparks the following question.  If I had 4 toggle switches for the 4 variable channels, could I turn off power to the track, select All TIU Tracks, click the thumbwheel to get 18 volts, lower the voltage, and then turn on power with the 4 toggle switches?  A bit cumbersome, but I wouldn't have any engines doing burnouts.   And, as you mentioned, a fix will be forthcoming at some point.

One other question, when I select All TIU Tracks, my understanding from your book is that the Fixed channels are not included.  So, I could continue running a command engine on the other loop?

Gregg, I want to have as much power as possible available on all tracks since I will be running command as well as conventional. If I have a couple of lighted passenger sets running on 1 loop, I'd like to have 2 Powerhouses on each loop.  I did give some thought to using TPC's to run 2 Powerhouses into each to get 20 amps all the way around the loop.  But, to do that I would have to buy 3 TPC's and run the TIU's in passive mode.  I'm not doing anything that would preclude me from doing that in the future.

Only one whistle will blow, only one engine will change directions if the dir button is pressed. It's been quite a while since I tried this with my home layout.It just didn't work very well  without switching between var channels with the remote. I had the perfect layout to run command and conventional, only needed 2 channels but  I soon gave up on it.. Besides this feature was never meant for conventional running. I'm not sure what it was meant for.  Try it your self, 

Vince,

If I had 4 toggle switches for the 4 variable channels, could I turn off power to the track, select All TIU Tracks, click the thumbwheel to get 18 volts, lower the voltage, and then turn on power with the 4 toggle switches? 

I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't work.

One other question, when I select All TIU Tracks, my understanding from your book is that the Fixed channels are not included.  So, I could continue running a command engine on the other loop?

Yes, that's correct. Just remember that if you set the TIU tracks to zero, go to the ENG screen, and return to the TR screen, you have the same high-voltage issue again.

Gregg,

It's been quite a while since I tried this with my home layout.

Are you sure that you weren't using independent TIU tracks?

I'm not questioning your recollection, however, if that were the case it would be almost impossible to conceive as to how it's being accomplished. How would DIR break the voltage on only one channel? How would it know which one to break?

Since it's been some time and you may not have been using DCS 4.10 or 4.20, could you try this again using DCS 4.20?

I'm thinking each var channel could toggle between command mode when  using a 180 brick for each var channel when set to command.  This is where it gets tricky, the other side of the toggle could supply  power to  the same track feeders  but  by only  one brick  supplying power to one var channel. this one var channel  could be controlled by the dcs remote and would also feed the other 3 var channels. Result.... All var channels operate as one . Of  course the dcs signal will go down the tubes but who cares for conventional running. It'll be fine in command mode.

The problem is as far as I see it...the dcs remote only works well with one channel at a time in var mode. Beside how many conventional engines are you going to try to run at once ?

You would leave 3 of the 4 var channels set to fixed mode,The 4 would control all of them in conventional mode via the toggles

Just a thought.

I've got good news and bad news, based on some testing I've just completed using the ALL TIU TRACKS function.

On my test bench (KW transformer, Rev. I3 TIU, DCS Remote, DCS 4.20, Loader Program 2.30), I set up TIU tracks for both of the TIU's variable channels and did some testing.I learned two things:

• The good news is that the Bell, Horn, DIR, and coupler buttons work just as they should. When a button is pressed, every engine on both variable channels obeyed the command.
• The bad news, however, is that whenever the ALL TIU TRACKS voltage is scrolled to zero, the next click up takes it right back to 18 volts, making the ALL TIU TRACKS control nearly impossible to use for conventional operation. 

However, there still remains one way that a single DCS Remote throttle can control multiple TIU channels simultaneously, although there is (of course) a caveat.

First, this method requires at least a pair of Z4000 transformers, each with a Z4000 Remote Commander receiver connected. You would then create a pair of Z4K TRACKS, but with a twist. Each Z4K TRACK would be set up to control a pair of handles, one handle from each Z4000.

One Z4K TRACK would control both left handles and the other both right handles. Each Z4K TRACK would have its own handle power going into a different TIU channel, where each channel would be either a Fixed channel or a Variable channel set to fixed mode. The pair of channels would, however, be controlled by a single Z4K TRACK.

Until MTH changes the DCS software, that's the best that I can offer.

Gregg,

I'm thinking each var channel could toggle between command mode when  using a 180 brick for each var channel when set to command.  This is where it gets tricky, the other side of the toggle could supply  power to  the same track feeders  but  by only  one brick  supplying power to one var channel. this one var channel  could be controlled by the dcs remote and would also feed the other 3 var channels. Result.... All var channels operate as one . Of  course the dcs signal will go down the tubes but who cares for conventional running. It'll be fine in command mode.

Huh?

I have no clue what you're proposing. I am completely not undertanding what you're attempting to say.

 Ok,  let me try again.... 4 var channels set to fixed mode,   4 toggle switches, DPDT center off. 4- 180 bricks.

One side of the toggles feds each var channel with one 180 brick for command operations.

The other side of the toggle(s) is fed from one of the var channel in var mode   and  becomes the feed for the other 3 var channels via the toggles

 The output of one var channel becomes the feed for the 3 others var channels (set to fixed) so they all act as one.... power is limited to one brick  when running conventional. What goes in a  channel set to fixed,

comes out the out put.

Barry  thanks for testing, I just finished going back to 3.11 for super mode testing.

That's the general idea with a couple of changes i don't want to mention right at this time.

Not perfect but better than have full start up voltage for conventional running

Thanks for doing the testing, Barry.

The cost of 2 Z4000's is a pretty steep price to be able to run conventional across the 2 loops.

Gregg's comments about using the toggle switches have me thinking.  I need to give this some more thought. Unfortunately, I don't have a test environment yet to try out some ideas.  Heck, I think my TIU's and Remotes are still at version 3.11 since they've been in storage for almost 6 years.

Barry, it sounds like fixing this issue with the voltage jumping to 18 volts is on the MTH list of future fixes, and I'm guessing it's not a real high priority.  So, it could be years before it is addressed. 

Gregg,

 The output of one var channel becomes the feed for the 3 others var channels (set to fixed) so they all act as one.

OK, now I see. I thought that might be what you were proposing, however, I rejected it because I have no idea what happens when you pass a DCS signal through a TIU channel.

Do you know that this works because you've done it, or are you just throwing it out there as an idea to try?

This is all unnecessarily complex, if you're willing to press the TRK button to switch from one loop to another.  My layout has 6 "loops" & I can run conventional or DCS on any at any time.  I have 2 TIUs, and use the 4 variable circuits, plus two Fixed circuits controlled thgrough a Z4k receiver driving the output voltage of a Z4000.

RJR, do you have conventional trains cross from one loop to another while running?

If so, do you find it to be a hassle to keep track (no pun intended ) of what voltage you have each loop set at and to then adjust the voltages of 2 loops to be the same before you switch the train to the other loop? 

When I run conventional, trains go everywhere on the layout.  It's not a hassle; remember that the TRK button toggles back & forth between current track & last track used, so it's easy to jump ahead, set the next section, & then go back to where you are.  Try it awhile.

The ideal is that any train, regardless of control system, can go anywhere on the layout.  It's not hard to attain.

It doesn't matter what the dcs is for conventional running. It won't be affected with command operations. Yes I'm just throwing out ideas . I would have gone with  tiu tracks using 2 var  channels but  I can't get  the var channels acting as one, The only thing that acts together is the voltage , dir and whistle button do not operate as  one on  each var channel at once. you have to select each channel .

Here's how I set the 2 var channels up to operate as one tiu channel.

process..

1- Turned off dcs signal to all channels

2-set both var  channel to var under DCS set up

3- used TR menu and SU (set up)

4-Added var 1, named it and  "D: for done

5-added var 2 named it and  "D" for done

When using the  all tiu tracks command it behaves as I mentioned.To change dir and have the whistle blow I have to select one of the named var channels. They certainly don't work as one except for  the voltage. Where did i go wrong?? Same results I had a few years ago Tested today, with 4.2  tiu & remote.

Why turn off the DCS signal to run conventional?

You don't have to unless you have a proto-2 that  you might want to try in conventional mode.  . You can even rest a proto-2 in conventional mode with the fast whistle and bell combination if one doesn't own a z-4000.

The reason I turned it off was because I don't have any conventional engines, only proto-2  for testing. Now with the signal turned off they're conventional engines.

Gregg,

dir and whistle button do not operate as  one on  each var channel at once. you have to select each channel .

Not so.

The DIR, Bell and Horn all work fine from ALL TIU TRACKS for me, as I indicated above. I have no idea why they don't work for you.

Again, why would you want to reverse all locos, blow all whistles, and start all bells on a layout?  When I was strictly conventional, I'd have 4-5 locos running at once, usually 2 on a "loop," and that would have caused bedlam.

cause that's how i like to run my  trains.One at a time anywhere on the layout without fumbling around with the dcs remote changing zones.

Well both my var channels were completely separated from each other, I stand by my finding , sure you didn't set up Z-4K tracks?

Gregg,

sure you didn't set up Z-4K tracks?

I'm sure. I used the test track TIU and a PW KW.

Oh, I see.  You only want to run one train at a time.  That's different.