Lionchief and Lionchief Plus

I'm guessing that the great majority of toy train layouts run no more than three trains at a time.  I like the concept and the engines chosen.  And frankly, my TMCC Cab-1 is starting to show signs of age after 20 years.

Jon

All I can say to the OP is check out the DOZENS of threads here on LC and LC+. You'll learn a lot. There's a ton of interest in these products, much of it from conventional and PW operators who really have little or no interest in full blown command control systems and the expensive trains that go with them.

And it's obviously a big success for Lionel as the line continues to expand with new steam and diesel offerings. Check out the 2016 catalogs.

So -- conventional PW, Lion Chief Plus, TMCC, Legacy, DCS, MTH, or good old Williams. There's something for everybody! 

I wasn't looking for disgruntle I was trying to find answers to why what both of you said make sense but to me still is why another system and why is that all you can buy I guess my biggest gripe if you want to call it that is your given no real other choice we use to have some nice conventional sets coming out for $ 400 - $700 we had some nice no track TMCC/Legacy sets coming out $500 - $900 I just don't need another operating system when I had one that was working fine I was thinking of upgrading to legacy but why I can't afford basically what is now coming out in legacy. I guess I do need to give a fair look at the stuff coming out but what do I do with all my TMCC engines now lol just run them in conventional ?

This is why I asked this not to really bad mouth it as it probably sounded but you did notice I asked am I missing something here first off. I guess I may look at a Cab1L to take care of my Legacy/TMCC engines when I get my layout built again and in the mean time look closer at your all's lionchief plus as I do know from hearing conversations that even thou at first they said it would , it won't lionchief will not run in conventional only the plus will.

note was has been corrected to wasn't at begining of post that was a typo on my part earlier. Sorry.

Bill, I understand what you are saying and I agree that a Legacy lite would have been a better choice then something brand new, but that's the way Lionel wants to do it. I have the Santa Fe LC+ A-B-A FT and I'm actually pretty impressed with how they look and perform, but at the end of the day for what I spent I probably could have bought the MTH ABA version and saved $200.00 and had a DCS ready engine, but for now I will continue to see what comes out and decide if I want to go Legacy or DCS.

RT if you could see them run I think you might change your mind about them. It's a great entry level system that can be run right along with your TMCC/Legacy engines and on the same track. You, me, we have moved on but the kids love em  and adults like them too.

Bill,

The simple fact of the matter is that LC and LC+ are not intended for you or marketed to you. It is intended to be ENTRY LEVEL.

I for one am getting tired of all the complaining about LC/LC+, how it's not compatible with TMCC/Legacy, how it doesn't have the features of TMCC/Legacy. Simply put, it's not supposed to be!

Why are you expecting a $40 2-channel radio control to be comparable with a sophisticated command control system costing several hundred dollars?

There's nothing in LC/LC+ that you want anyway, so you don't even have to worry about it.

Why waste your energy complaining about something you will never buy?

It's proving to be wildly popular (relatively speaking) with beginners, children, and casual modelers like myself. Lionel has all but abandoned conventional transformer RTR sets by the looks of this year's catalog. It's selling. They're making enough money at it to encourage them to produce more. This means that they will be around to produce more high-end stuff for you. It is a GOOD thing. Really, it is.

I too would have preferred a neat and orderly solution that had compatibility with the TMCC/Legacy world that many of us already have in place on our layouts. I'm not sure if the cost to install a Legacy lite was really that high or Lionel was just maximizing profit at the expense of having harmony across all of their product lines.

I can say that, for the new or young user, the LC remote seems to be a big hit. Especially when compared to a traditional transformer handle or even the MTH DCS starter remote. 

If I were outfitting a public train show or holiday display layout, I could see having a stable of these locos and being able to hand them to the kids so they aren't just spectators.

However, it's closed loop approach pretty much takes them off of my wish list. 

Matt Kirsch posted:

Bill,

The simple fact of the matter is that LC and LC+ are not intended for you or marketed to you. It is intended to be ENTRY LEVEL.

I for one am getting tired of all the complaining about LC/LC+, how it's not compatible with TMCC/Legacy, how it doesn't have the features of TMCC/Legacy. Simply put, it's not supposed to be!

Why are you expecting a $40 2-channel radio control to be comparable with a sophisticated command control system costing several hundred dollars?

There's nothing in LC/LC+ that you want anyway, so you don't even have to worry about it.

Why waste your energy complaining about something you will never buy?

It's proving to be wildly popular (relatively speaking) with beginners, children, and casual modelers like myself. Lionel has all but abandoned conventional transformer RTR sets by the looks of this year's catalog. It's selling. They're making enough money at it to encourage them to produce more. This means that they will be around to produce more high-end stuff for you. It is a GOOD thing. Really, it is.

But basically that's my point I don't have a problem with lionchief/lionchief+ as a whole what I'm really complaining about is thou Lionel is trying to give you that as your only choice unless your willing to spend money a lot don't have. I'm not expecting really a $40 2 channel item to replace several hundred dollars system but when it first came out ( for about 2 months then it ended) it was being sold as a entry level system to introduce you to command control for your kids then they basicly got the idea heck no this is what our new ready made sets need to be only.

I have 4 Lionchief + trains running at the same time. Great Value.  My grandchildren ages 5 and 3 each run their own trains. It's really a joy to watch them.  I can't afford $600 or more on a train. Look at the prices for Lionchief + engines.  See attached video  

I do have an advanced Legacy and DCS layout, and I LOVE the new Lionchief plus stuff.

The new LC sets, and LC+ locos are the number one seller at many shops around me.

The stuff is well made, and works very well.

rtraincollector posted:

But basically that's my point I don't have a problem with lionchief/lionchief+ as a whole what I'm really complaining about is thou Lionel is trying to give you that as your only choice unless your willing to spend money a lot don't have.

If you're spending money you don't have on model trains, a new product line isn't going to help you, financial counseling is what you need!

If you don't like it, don't buy it, it's really that simple.  Look at Williams, they have a lot of nice conventional stuff.

You say you're not here to complain, yet you're here complaining away!  When kids come into the Henning's store, I hand them the LC remote, they take to it like a duck to water.  I've handed a couple older ones the Legacy controller, they're usually dumbstruck at all the buttons and knobs.  The younger ones won't even take it out of my hand!

Lionchief or Lionchief Plus was never designed to be TMCC/Legacy, that's probably why it isn't.  I'll bet there are literally thousands of companies that don't manufacture a product that you find suitable, and it's likely you simply don't buy.  I suggest taking the same approach to LC/LC+ products, problem solved.

Been down this road many times before but guess I'll throw it out again. Especially since I keep seeing things about LC/LC+ being for "kids" or "entry level."

There are two separate systems. Plain vanilla Lion Chief = offered in sets mostly, quite toy-like, comes with a wall wart, and -- indeed -- is marketed for youngsters, families, and new train folks.  Conventional only.

Lion Chief Plus = much more detail on the trains, not sold in a set, and comes with smoke, speed & sound control, and operating couplers. Can be run conventionally or with the supplied remote. Check these prices, folks! Not really "entry level." Sure,  LC+ is less expensive than Legacy, et.al., but the market here seems to be older, more established train operators who mostly run conventional, PW, and/or smaller layouts. They post their LC+ stuff here frequently! 

Lee Willis has 12 or 13 LC+ locomotives, he loves the things!  He also has a layout that will run scale Big Boy locomotives, so it's not just for beginners.

LC is for beginners and kids.

LC+ is for people who want to take a step up from basic starter sets without dropping close to $1200 for their first Legacy locomotive and all the support gear.

OBVIOUSLY, just because it was intended for beginners and casual modelers doesn't mean that ANYONE can't buy them. 

I bought an NW2 from Patrick's just to be part of his special just before Christmas.

My first of any kind of remote of any scale, and I have G, HO, N and O.

I just got it out for the first time yesterday. I don't know how you could expect any better product. It runs smooth and WORKS. More will follow for sure.

If you do a light survey on problems. The PS1,2,3, DCS is the most often mentioned, then the various Lionel command versions a distant second, and a few Lion Chief Plus thrown in there. Command problems sound like what we went through in PC infancy, many issues of components not talking to each other. All having to be same vintage and release, etc.. 

I will probably buy a Legacy or two. Then I will need to spend hundreds more to run it. Didn't have to buy a thing to run my LC+.  

We like the LC+ as well as our Legacy and VL locos. Best thing is our 4yr. old grandson can pick up the controller and run "his" Mikado without anyone helping...he uses everything, bell, whistle, crew talk, coupler like a pro!  When he tires of it, I pick it up.   What surprised me this weekend was as he ran the Mikado I was running my Southern Crescent passenger train on the adjacent loop and frankly, the LC+ looked great...I think to anyone but a real critical eye the difference is not evident, except when you stop and the Southern Crescent continues to smoke, but the LC+_ does not. I'll be adding more to my LC+ stable.

johnstrains posted:

Been down this road many times before but guess I'll throw it out again. Especially since I keep seeing things about LC/LC+ being for "kids" or "entry level."

There are two separate systems. Plain vanilla Lion Chief = offered in sets mostly, quite toy-like, comes with a wall wart, and -- indeed -- is marketed for youngsters, families, and new train folks.  Conventional only.

Lion Chief Plus = much more detail on the trains, not sold in a set, and comes with smoke, speed & sound control, and operating couplers. Can be run conventionally or with the supplied remote. Check these prices, folks! Not really "entry level." Sure, less expensive than Legacy, et.al., but these are frequently older, established operators who run conventional, PW, and/or smaller layouts. They post their LC+ stuff here frequently! 

GVDobler posted:

I bought an NW2 from Patrick's just to be part of his special just before Christmas.

My first of any kind of remote of any scale, and I have G, HO, N and O.

I just got it out for the first time yesterday. I don't know how you could expect any better product. It runs smooth and WORKS. More will follow for sure.

If you do a light survey on problems. The PS1,2,3, DCS is the most often mentioned, then the various Lionel command versions a distant second, and a few Lion Chief Plus thrown in there. Command problems sound like what we went through in PC infancy, many issues of components not talking to each other. All having to be same vintage and release, etc.. 

I will probably buy a Legacy or two. Then I will need to spend hundreds more to run it. Didn't have to buy a thing to run my LC+.  

Not true....3 triple AAA  batteries for that remote.  A small price to pay for a fairly bullet proof product as far as operation.  

Gunrunner its hard to make a point or concern without it sounding like a complaint so will take that I also said in last I need more knowledge on this and from you all I'm getting it I tried to goto Lionel website and couldn't my guess overloaded because of new catalogue but I'm still trying to look at this with a open mind . Which I'm trying to do and as stated I'm learning and learning point of views even if some of it is hard for me to swallow I'm starting to see lionchief+ as the engine to go with but feel maybe as upper type sets maybe they should look into putting them in sets as they are the premium of the two types of engines

I really appreciate all the replies as it opens a new way of looking at this. That's why I asked the question and asked "am I missing something" it getting very obvious yes I am. So need to open my jump to conclusion mind I developed before even really looking at them good and see what really is there.

Hey Bill, dive right in!

Gotta tell you of the 4 LC+ locos I have the NW-2 switchers are really sweet. Great runners, smoke well, and a lot of fun pulling various consists. Come in 4-5 road names.

LC and LC+ are simple and fun.  I do not have any LC+, but I recommended that my friend get the B&O NW2 for his nephews based on what I read and my experience with LC RTR sets.  We tested it out and it was awesome.  That being said, I really like the MTH model for command and control on all of their engines.  It makes more sense to me to have one unified system.  

I just wish they would make all the LionChief stuff LionChief+.  I like having the transformer option as a backup to the remote.  BigRail

rtraincollector posted:

I was looking for disgruntle I was trying to find answers to why what both of you said make sense but to me still is why another system and why is that all you can buy I guess my biggest gripe if you want to call it that is your given no real other choice we use to have some nice conventional sets coming out for $ 400 - $700.

LC+ can be run as conventional.

If children do not get into the hobby the hobby and your ability to buy any trains will diminish.

I have Legacy and most are afraid to take the remote from me as GRJ stated. I did buy a LC PE engine and tender and had all my wife's friends running the PE at a Holiday party. They had a ball and kept yelling for me to come back and add more smoke fluid.

At first I struggled with it as well looking at it as a "cheaper" set, but from what I have seen and read they are really quite nice. With LC+ you are getting "close" to Legacy for allot less money. I think when Lionel offers LC+ scale engines, that will be the game changer.

I'm just glad we're getting more options in the lower price range. Find a shop and go try one, you might be impressed.

bigdodgetrain posted:

rtraincollector posted:

I was looking for disgruntle I was trying to find answers to why what both of you said make sense but to me still is why another system and why is that all you can buy I guess my biggest gripe if you want to call it that is your given no real other choice we use to have some nice conventional sets coming out for $ 400 - $700.

LC+ can be run as conventional.

 

If children do not get into the hobby the hobby and your ability to buy any trains will diminish.

Typo on my part there I need to reread before I hit post it was suppose to say I wasn't looking for disgruntle my bust all

I bought the LC+ Camelback as it is a scale sized locomotive, and I wanted to actually have one to tinker with and be able to intelligently comment on the pros and cons.

No, it's not Legacy.  However, it has excellent speed control, great smoke, nice sound, and pretty well detailed for a $350 command steamer.  It seems to have excellent pulling power, I had no problem with 20 scale modern boxcars, can't complaint about that.

I'd consider buying another if one that strikes my fancy comes along.

have you looked at any of these units under the hood to say and figure how easy/hard it would be to convert to TMCC with a err set not saying I would but it just crossed my mind when you said it wasn't legacy I guess my biggest hang up is another controller to deal with more than it's another system. That's probably why I have never step over to DCS. The more I think about all this. this for me has been a very good topic today I got a lot of very good feedback and a lot that open my eyes to another view on it which I really was searching for so I could see the interest in it a lot of it makes sense to me but because of size of layout no but as instead of spending $$ for a command set up then the engine and all.

GRJ and Jeff T, I noted that in addition to the cameback, the new LC+ 0-4-0 is described as scale proportioned.   I have thought that the FT was close to scale, subjective of course how close is close.  

So Lionel might be testing the waters with scale LC+?

For my part, I am "sold" on the LC+ combination of features and price.   I plan to unload some of my conventional locos to make room for more LC+ (GP-38 looks promising).

Please don't take this the wrong way Bill... but is English your first language?  It almost reads as if you're using a translator program.  Nothing wrong with that, just curious.

Jon

Kooljock a lot of times my mind gets moving faster than my fingers and I will not complete words like was and actually wanted wasn't or I will skip words completely but other than that not sure what your getting at.

Also a lot of times I may pic the wrong spell check

I saw that the 0-4-0 was scale sized.  Since I have the K-Line A-5 and the Legacy B6, I don't know if I'll be in the market for this one.

In my opinion the Lion Chief line was meant for the beginner market, as well as we old timers who  are looking for some out of the box and on the track fun. The beauty of the trains is that I can place one on the track of my platform and away we go.  I know the same holds true for the MTH starter sets and I don't need a special controller, but what the hay kids like having their own controller me included. The whole look of the hand held remote screams simple and easy to use and that is a wonderful thing when grandparents are buying for the little ones.

I'm not a dealer but I bet Lionel is selling a ton of them if for no other reason then they look like a cool toy.

This one's been discussed quite a bit before, but the basic jist is that the only limitation on the ability of LC+ is whatever limits Lionel decides to put on it.  Mostly that revolves around having a very simple remote.  As for compatibility with other systems, as has been discussed before, Lionel could very easily release a LionChief to TMCC bridge to allow tmcc/legacy to control these engines.  I don't think it is in their interest to do so at this time, but I do have a fully functioning bridge working with about $10 in parts, so it is entirely possible.  My method is not pretty, but it works.  

JGL

Hi John, I would love to see how you built that bridge. I'm a  master  of not pretty work.

The not pretty part was having to open up the remote and solder on a few wires, because I beat my head against the wall for too many days trying to decode the actual radio signal and gave up.  The rest is a couple hundred lines of code on an arduino to read commands from the TMCC base and send them out to the LC remote.  Lots of trial and error to make sure timings are right s the whistle button cant fire the couplers and to make the volume adjustment work correctly.  I'll have a video up all about it as soon as I can get to it.  

I expect my endgame now to be to wait until the 3 engine remote is available, then stuff the whole mess into a little box that folks can use rather easily.  

JGL

That sounds very cool, I'll be interested in seeing that when you do it.

Just watch this short video and you will learn, all about LionChief & LionChief Plus. Why you need it for your layout and train room.

Gary: Cheers from The Detroit and Mackinac Railway

Way to go Gary!  Get 'em started young.

Gentlemen,

    Just because the engineering package in the LC/LC+ is not as complex as the Legacy, does not make it an entry level set.  It does have the individual remote control that a child can use however, which in itself is pretty high tech engineering.  In the future when Lionel engineers a way to have Legacy control the stand alone units, are you still going to say the LC/LC+ are entry level train sets, I hardly think so.  I have been in this hobby for a lot of years, to me an entry level train set has no remote control, especially slow speed remote control.  If you want to consider these LC/LC+ train sets modern entry level, you have now engineered an entire new modern era of entry level trains, changing the definition drastically.  I run DCS & TMCC/Legacy and have added the LC Santa Express, with it's independent remote control, I consider this independent remote control RTR set just a further less complex addition, to my DCS & TMCC/Legacy Christmas layout.   It is a RTR less complex remote control train set.  Further no entry level train sets have ever had both remote control, and some scale engines also.

PCRR/Dave