Lionel 3461 action log car

The only plausible answer is to check to make sure the rivet contacts of each sliding shoe are making contact with the operating rails on the uncoupling/unloading track.

Look at the wiring diagram on page one of the service manual (upper right corner). With the car on the unloading track and the track energized, connect an AC voltmeter to the coil wires. You should read track voltage at the coil. If you don't, the sliding shoes are not making electrical contact. Make sure the springs above the shoes are in good condition and are pressing the shoes all the way down.

Larry

Rivets might be worn to the point of not contacting the power/ground rails or shoe springs might be too weak to push the shoes onto the rails.

The soldered wire is cocking the shoe off enough to prevent a solid contact. Redo it with 22-24 ga SuperFlex.

Thanks.

I think that Larry's  "Make sure the springs above the shoes are in good condition and are pressing the shoes all the way down." is the solution to the problem.  One spring on one shoe is working and pressing down but the 2nd spring on this shoe is not doing the job --the shoe is coming down on an angle so I do not think that shoe is making contact.  Fixable?  Or does the shoe have to be replaced.  I have already taken apart trucks like this before but only then to replace/install new couplers.

Drill out the rivet holding the shoe in place, and replace the rivet (480-20), the spring (6TC-12) and the shoe plate (TC-109).

That should get the shoe to face straight down.

Larry

Easier said than done.  Thanks Larry --you are the man!

Well ..didn't need to replace the shoe--just adjusted the springs and now it works okay.  But now I have a new problem. While the car dumps when empty now it will not even dump one log.  It use to dump a whole load of logs before.  The DU side of of my ZW transformer is wide open to 20+ and there is nothing else on this line that is being operated at the same time as the 3461.  I have a single "yard" track that is not even connected to any mainline in my layout.

Suggestions?

Cleaaned the rivet and shoe again, cleaned the track, and that seemed to help but only will unload 2 logs max.

Anymore than two and it just sits there and hums. It use to unload a load of 8 logs. (because that's all the logs I had at that time; it may have been able to unload more than 8 for all I knew)

@wizzer posted:

Cleaaned the rivet and shoe again, cleaned the track, and that seemed to help but only will unload 2 logs max...

Is this a FasTrack operating track?

No.  It is an O guage action track.  I have 4 of them spread out (spaced out) on a single Fastrack yard line.

What controller are you using?

I am using the original mid-1950's controller that came with the operating track.   But I have 4 such controllers and operating tracks.  The 3461 works the same on all 4 operating tracks.  Yet when I put the 3469 Coal Dump car on all the operating tracks it works fine and dumps completly.   The operating cattle car and operating milk car also work on these operating tracks with the old contollers.

Put your transformer leads on the sliding shoes and test the car like you originally did. Does it operate properly?

With the car on the unloading track and the track energized, connect an AC voltmeter to the coil wires. You should read track voltage at the coil.

Make sure the plunger slides freely inside the coil. Clean it and the inside of the coil with Naphtha.

If the shoes are making solid contact on the control rails,  the rails and coil are getting full voltage, and the mechanism operates freely, the only thing left seems to be the coil.  It may have gone bad.

Larry

Larry

I will get to this later today --if all goes well.  So it might be a while.

I think your comment, "Make sure the plunger slides freely inside the coil. Clean it and the inside of the coil with Naphtha"  may be the key.  I have not taken the plunger off the car and it is an old car.  Any suggestion on how to do this without creating more problems?

The only other thing I keep remembering is that the last time it worked properly it really flew open--I think that it jarred the wire loose it was so forceful.  Maybe I had the ZW transformer BU side at 20 and it should have been at 15.

Again thanks for all your help!

JIM

@wizzer posted:

I will get to this later today --

What is the impedance 𝒓𝒆𝒔𝒊𝒔𝒕𝒂𝒏𝒄𝒆  of the solenoid coil?

Take the mechanism apart following the service manual diagram and clean it with Naphtha. Insure the plunger slides freely in the coil, and that the core of the coil is not out-of-round due to excessive heat.

Rob,

Without   a) having an impedance meter, and  b) not knowing the impedance of a good known coil, an impedance reading would be worthless.

Larry

OK.  Here's what I did.  I cleaned the unloading tracks really good.  Inspected them.  Think maybe in an early cleaning I loosed up two of the inside rails that touch the shoe rivets.  I will have to take those unloading sections up and inspect their under sides.

I did put the car on my workbench with a seperate transformer and applied the wires to the rivets of the shoes and it really flew open (but it had no load on it) but I could tell if it did have then the logs would have gone a flying.

I then put it back on the unloading tracks on my layout and while the car would dump 2-3 logs it could not muster up the umph to unload more logs than that.   However, one of my unloading track sections (the one in front om my action milk car) unloaded 8 logs with no problem as they went a flying.

Conclusion:  It has to be my unloading/action track sections.  Like I said above--I need to inspect (re solder?) the underside of these sections.  I don't think it is a car problem now.

I might be in the market to buy some new lionel action/unloading track sections. I think my controllers are okay and all have new wires from the controllers to the track sections now.  (Not new wiring inside the controllers just newly soldered wire from the outside of the controllers.)

JIM

It sounds like the unloading rails are not receiving full power. Put an AC meter on them while pressing the unload button to verify the voltage.

Larry

My arms aren't that long.....

Just kidding.   I will try this.

@TrainLarry posted:

Without   a) having an impedance meter,

A basic VOM is a must-have for basic hobby repairs and diagnostics. They are free or almost free at Harbor Freight.

@TrainLarry posted:

and  b) not knowing the impedance of a good known coil, an impedance reading would be worthless.

Worthless to you, maybe, but to everyone else trying to help you solve this it could mean everything.  5-7 ohms would be in the ballpark for a good coil.

Rob,

Impedance and resistance are not the same unit of measurement. Impedance is checked with a special impedance meter, while resistance is measured with your garden variety multi-meter. You are quoting resistance measurements, and I think you meant resistance and not impedance in your previous post.

Larry

@TrainLarry posted:

Impedance and resistance are not the same unit of measurement.

I know, but if you give us the resistance, that would be pretty close in a wire wound coil.  So what is the resistance of the coil?

OK I have not done all that has been suggested yet.  Working on it.  I cleaned out the plunger really good.  Then I went the extra mile and soldered 6 points on the underside of my Lionel O guage, tubular, 1950's action track.  (I will send pictures in my next email.  The new solder is the smaller drops and more silver drops to the contact or connection spots for the two middle rails the car shoe rides on. The larger drops of solder, dull grey, are the original solder.)

At first the car shot out 6 logs.  I then 7 logs.  Then when I tried 8 --nothing happend.  Just sat there and hummed.  Then after that I could not even get it to do 7 logs again.  Then it would not do 6 logs or 5 logs.

4 logs seems to be the max I will have to live with.  It just seems to be a hit and miss situation.  I even removed the controller from my main panel and moved it around a little (and pushed the unload button a number of times)  just to make sure there was not a broken wire in it. This did not make a difference.  Took the plate off the base of the contoller and inspected the wires and contacts --all seemed good to me.  There is one brass arm on the left side of the controller that is bent up and would not make any contact with anything but I think that is the way it is supposed to be.   (See pictures in my next email)  Let me know if it isn't supposed to be that way.

I will next hook up a meter to all of this but I need to remove the track again from the layout --it is 10 feet away from my controller. 

OK I am going to try this again.  The last one (I think) did not go through.

Pictures of the Underside of one of my Lionel O guage Tubular action tracks and the controller that goes with it.

You need to get voltage readings of the control rails with the car on the unloading track, and the track at full power and the unload button pressed. You should get track voltage.

While pressing the unload button, get a voltage reading on the coil itself. It should also be at track voltage.

If all voltages are correct and the car still does not dump, either the mechanism is jamming or the coil is faulty.

Larry

Larry I have finally found some longer wire leads for my voltage meter.  Should I get the readings from the DCV,  ACV, or DC side of the meter.

I suppose I should set it at the 50 mark since the voltage will be more than 10 but less than 50???

Sorry for the dumb questions.

Set the meter to read AC volts and to the 50 volt scale on that meter.

Larry

OK.  I set the meter  to AC 50.  The track itself is reading 4 .  The 2 control rails to the right* are reading 4.

The 2 control rails to the left* are not registering at all.   So I took a look at the underside of the track and it appears the extra soldering job I did on those two underside posts/plats that "go" to the left* side of the track did not hold or take place.  I will resolder these two areas again.

*When facing the top side of the  action track, with the 4 screws for wire hook ups closest to you, the "left side" is to the left of these 4 screws and the "right side" is to the right of these 4 screws.

I will resolder these two areas and get back to you.

Well...I did the resolder job which worked and held.   But I still do not get a reading on the left control rails.

so I attached the meter to the 4 screws on the track (numbered 1 to 4 from the left to the right).

Screw 4 registereed 4 when the controller unload button was pushed

and registered 3 when the uncouple button was pushed.

Screw 3 always registered 4 even without any controller buttons being pushed,  IF the uncouple

button was pushed the meter went down to 3.

Screw 2 did not register if the unload button was pushed but registered 3 if the uncouple button was pushed

(Which would imply the wire to this screw from the controller is intact.)

Screw 1 did not register if the unload button was pushed and seemed to "short out" if the uncouple button was pushed.  By "short out" I mean that while the meter needle did not move, the lights in the bumpers at the ends of this rail line did blink and get darker --as if in a short.  I suppose for "uncoupling" this is normal.

(Which seems to indicate the wire to this screw from the controller is intact.)

I think I once read where if you were not going to use the action track for "uncoupling" it was best not to attach the wire needed for this --that would be the 3 wire, correct?

I will double check the wiring under the layout next and to and in the controller. But even with the above experience it would seem all wires are intact and "workable."

The wires looked okay --but I did redo a suspect wire...

which made no difference when I retested everything again.

Back to square one.

Buy a new control track?

Came up with a new solution.  I moved the Lionel O guage tubular action track that threw a full load of logs across the room and moved it to be used in front of my log loader.  Then took the action track that was in front of the log loader and moved it to the coal dump tray.   All of this was done after making sure the Lionel coal dump car would dump a load of coal using the former log loader action track.   Evidently the coal is a lot lighter than eight wooden logs.   Walaah!

Thanks for all your help --all of you.

Now to find a wiring diagram for my Lionel 2343 dummy unit with the headlight that will not light even after a new shoe with a new shoe rivit.   Seems like the rollers are not picking up any "juice" from the center track.

This is a main line track and not the yard track with all the action track sections on it.

Wizzer here is picture of our 2343 light wire in the dummy unit the light wire is soldered to a lug below the shoe also make sure your light socket is firmly in place if loose it will lose its ground and not light up.The light works fine never tested the shoe itself to see if it works but see no reason why it would not .

"My 3461 was working and after one "strong" dump it stopped working."

You or the car? Don

ROTFL!