Lionel 6-18122 F3 B unit, command upgrade

You will likely have to replace it.  I'd be pretty surprised if they used TMCC compatible chips in a RS 2.5 setup in a conventional rig.  I'm curious, have you already upgraded the other units?  They're listed as conventional as well.

I haven't upgraded any part of the set yet. I plan on using an ERR AC commander for the powered A unit and then trying to get the B unit to work in command. I have no interest in adding command capability to the dummy A unit as I don't plan on installing electro couplers.

I'd like to use the sounds from this F3 B unit as no other Lionel F3 has the horn used on this sound set. It's different from the horn Lionel used in the 6-18130 F3 A-B and 6-18136 F3 B unit I also have. I'd like to keep the sound set as I've had this ABBA set of F3s since I was a kid, so nostalgia is a factor here.

You are likely out of luck in the command world.  The conventional/command capability is embedded in the chips, if they're truly programmed for conventional operation, they won't work in command.

Lou1985 posted:

I have a Lionel 6-18122 F3 B unit: https://www.lionelsupport.com/...amp;CFTOKEN=62687564 that I would eventually like to upgrade to command control. It's part of the 6-18117/6-18121/6-18122 Santa Fe F3 ABBA freight set I own. The engine is easy enough to upgrade with an ERR AC commander but I'd like to use the F3B unit sounds in the TMCC environment as well. I found this thread: https://ogrforum.com/...ds-on-command-layout but it didn't have an end result. Is it possible to make the sound set from this F3B work with TMCC or would I have to replace it? 

Shouldn't be a problem, but let's get some additional info first.

1) Confirm the board in your B unit looks like this:

2) What is the number on the large chip's white label on the top of the board as mounted in your B-unit? (This is technically the board's bottom side as it gets mounted upside down.) It's probably something like RS25xxxx.

3) What's the number on the small chip's white label on the bottom side (really the board's top)  on your board? This is the chip shown in the photo above. If it's too hard to read without removing the board to see, don't worry about it.

Let me know the answers to the above, and I'll tell you if what you're proposing is doable.

TRW

PaperTRW posted:

Lou1985 posted:

I have a Lionel 6-18122 F3 B unit: https://www.lionelsupport.com/...amp;CFTOKEN=62687564 that I would eventually like to upgrade to command control. It's part of the 6-18117/6-18121/6-18122 Santa Fe F3 ABBA freight set I own. The engine is easy enough to upgrade with an ERR AC commander but I'd like to use the F3B unit sounds in the TMCC environment as well. I found this thread: https://ogrforum.com/...ds-on-command-layout but it didn't have an end result. Is it possible to make the sound set from this F3B work with TMCC or would I have to replace it? 

Shouldn't be a problem, but let's get some additional info first.

1) Confirm the board in your B unit looks like this:

2) What is the number on the large chip's white label on the top of the board as mounted in your B-unit? (This is technically the board's bottom side as it gets mounted upside down.) It's probably something like RS25xxxx.

3) What's the number on the small chip's white label on the bottom side (really the board's top)  on your board? This is the chip shown in the photo above. If it's too hard to read without removing the board to see, don't worry about it.

Let me know the answers to the above, and I'll tell you if what you're proposing is doable.

TRW

Thanks. I've attached pictures of the two chip's white labels. Hopefully converting this B unit to command control is doable. If it is and you know some Lionel part numbers I'd need to make it work please let me know. 

I do no think it is the chip on the older stuff, rather the board itself.  I am pretty sure I moved a 2.0 Type chip to a 2.5 board and it worked, but that was a long time ago on a N&W J upgrade.  G

Lou1985 posted:

Thanks. I've attached pictures of the two chip's white labels. Hopefully converting this B unit to command control is doable. If it is and you know some Lionel part numbers I'd need to make it work please let me know.

Yup, you should be fine. Although I'm not familiar with that ROM chip (that's the smaller one that contains the actual sounds) both your RailSounds 2.5 board and PIC chip are TMCC equipped. You won't have CrewTalk or TowerCom on that early sound set, but everything else is likely in the ROM.

Attached below is a wiring diagram for your B unit. The red arrow indicates where you need to attach one wire from your TMCC board -- R2LC, LCRX, etc. That's the serial communication line that allows that RailSounds board to receive TMCC commands. You can either choose to install one of those boards in your B unit (I have two LCRX's for sale if you need one) or run a wire between your TMCC-equipped A unit into your B.

TRW

GGG posted:

I do no think it is the chip on the older stuff, rather the board itself.  I am pretty sure I moved a 2.0 Type chip to a 2.5 board and it worked, but that was a long time ago on a N&W J upgrade.  G

It's likely a combination of both the board and the PIC chip, although I've always been curious if you can coax TMCC compatibility out of a RS2.0 board with the proper chipset.

You can move many -- but not all -- of the RailSounds 2.0 chipsets over to 2.5 boards and they'll work in TMCC mode. The 6-18040 N&W J that you mentioned is one of them.

There were only about six items to come with RS2.0 boards. The ones from 1994 -- the 6-18216 Conrail SD-60 and 6-18034 Santa Fe Mikado -- have PIC chips that do NOT have TMCC coding. However I've been able to take an early TMCC diesel PIC chip and use it successfully with the Conrail SD-60 ROM. While there's not even ElectroCoupler sounds in that ROM, everything else works as expected.

It would appear that some, if not all, of the 1995 RS2.0 items are TMCC compatible when transplanted to a RS2.5 board. I've tested both steam SKUs with success, but haven't had a chance to test the two diesels (C&NW Dash-8 and Milwaukee SD-40.)

The OP's F-3 B unit is actually a conventional RS2.5 set-up due to the fact that the matching A-A units, made the year before, were pre-TMCC.

TRW

PaperTRW posted:

Lou1985 posted:

Thanks. I've attached pictures of the two chip's white labels. Hopefully converting this B unit to command control is doable. If it is and you know some Lionel part numbers I'd need to make it work please let me know.

Yup, you should be fine. Although I'm not familiar with that ROM chip (that's the smaller one that contains the actual sounds) both your RailSounds 2.5 board and PIC chip are TMCC equipped. You won't have CrewTalk or TowerCom on that early sound set, but everything else is likely in the ROM.

Attached below is a wiring diagram for your B unit. The red arrow indicates where you need to attach one wire from your TMCC board -- R2LC, LCRX, etc. That's the serial communication line that allows that RailSounds board to receive TMCC commands. You can either choose to install one of those boards in your B unit (I have two LCRX's for sale if you need one) or run a wire between your TMCC-equipped A unit into your B.

TRW

 

Awesome. Thank you very much. I was planning on using a ERR AC commander for the a unit. I can just run one wire from the serial line on the ERR board to the appropriate connection on the Rail Sounds board and I should be good? If so I can make a tether between the units. 

I'm going to purchase a ERR AC commander for the powered unit after the holidays. Does anyone know which pin is the serial communications line on the ERR AC commander? I plan on just running a tether between the AC Commander in the powered A unit and the board in the B unit for the serial line.

Thanks!

Do you happen to know the name of the style of connector used on the ERR board so I can order some?

The connector used on the AC Commander is the JST-EH family of connectors, readily available on Digikey or Mouser.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The connector used on the AC Commander is the JST-EH family of connectors, readily available on Digikey or Mouser.

Awesome. Thanks again. I'll order some for my project. 

In case you don't know, the unlabeled pin in my diagram for the AC Commander sound output connector is a logic signal that is pulled to 5V whenever the whistle/horn is sounded.  This allows you to add a conventional horn that is controlled by the TMCC remote.

I figured that other pin was for that.

I just plan on running the one wire to the B-unit for the serial data. I'll let the Railsounds board in the B-unit continue to draw power from the rollers already on the unit. The less amount of wires between the powered A unit and B unit the better.

I suggest two wires.  You do NOT want the ground to be determined by the path through the wheels.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I suggest two wires.  You do NOT want the ground to be determined by the path through the wheels.

Ah ok. Can I have both a ground to the AC commander and the original ground in the B unit connected? The Railsounds board drawing power from the center rail pickups on the B-unit is fine correct?

Yep, but you don't want the serial data getting it's ground through the wheels.

Is this a dummy engine that you are upgrading???.   I powered a dummy post war F3B 2343.   So sputting in the new mounting hole for the motor was a little work.   Is your set the Blue ATSF F3B???  I thought tshey made one of those with sound..

Marty

Martin Derouin posted:

Is this a dummy engine that you are upgrading???.   I powered a dummy post war F3B 2343.   So sputting in the new mounting hole for the motor was a little work.   Is your set the Blue ATSF F3B???  I thought tshey made one of those with sound..

Marty

It is the blue and yellow freight set. The B unit has sound but no TMCC capability from the factory. I'll be adding an ERR AC commander to the powered A unit so I was asking how to connect the Railsounds board in the B unit to the AC Commander so the sounds would work in under TMCC command control. 

I installed a LCRX into the B unit today. The Railsounds board works perfect under command control either from a CAB-1 or DCS remote. So in case this comes up again yes the Railsounds board in a 6-18122 F3 B unit is TMCC command compatible. The only sound set it does not have is squealing brakes. Prime mover rev up/down, horn, bell, and air release all work from the remote. 

Did some playing around with the B unit tonight. I installed an ERR AC commander in the powered A unit and was running them together tonight. Turns out the Railsounds actually has all the features typical of early TMCC. So prime mover rev up/down, horn, bell, air release, squealing brakes, and coupler open sound.