Lionel 60 Trolley

There should be two wires from the field to the brushplate, often twisted together, plus there should be two wires running from the field to the two terminals on the contact plate over the slide (one ot each terminal). Are they all there and connected? 

If so, test by putting one lead to the rollers, and the other test lead on each of those contact plate terminals, one at a time. The motor should run in opposite directions for each terminal.

By the way, did you test operation before taking it apart to clean?

I always do a quick test to see if there in any life. I get the impression that a lot of folks do not.

I did test operation before taking it apart, that is the main reason I took it apart. It was doing the issues. 

I will take some photos of it tonight when I get home from work and post to see if there is something wrong.

Thanks!

The tests i suggested above will help to isolate the problem. 

C W Burfle posted:

There should be two wires from the field to the brushplate, often twisted together, plus there should be two wires running from the field to the two terminals on the contact plate over the slide (one ot each terminal). Are they all there and connected? 

If so, test by putting one lead to the rollers, and the other test lead on each of those contact plate terminals, one at a time. The motor should run in opposite directions for each terminal.

By the way, did you test operation before taking it apart to clean?

I always do a quick test to see if there in any life. I get the impression that a lot of folks do not.

Here are some photos, please tell me if it is wired correctly if you are able to. I think it looks correct from what you are saying. Any other ideas?

Did you try the test I suggested?

I can see the two wires running to the terminals on the slide plate, but I cannot tell whether they are OK or broken.
I cannot tell what is wired to the brush plate. Too much stuff crowded in a small place to see in two dimensions (a picture).

A fairly common complaint with these cars.   They have a double-wound armature for reversing, and, frequently, one of the armature wires will break at the solder joint.  I'd check that first.  

Good luck!

Mitch 

C W Burfle posted:

Did you try the test I suggested?

I can see the two wires running to the terminals on the slide plate, but I cannot tell whether they are OK or broken.
I cannot tell what is wired to the brush plate. Too much stuff crowded in a small place to see in two dimensions (a picture).

This morning, I tried the tests that you recommended. The following happened:

1) I placed the one lead to the pickup roller and the second to the contact on the contact plate, farthest from the motor. The Trolley motor ran in that direction

2) I placed the one lead to the pickup roller and the second to the contact on the contact plate, nearest to the motor. The Trolley motor did not run.

3) I checked the wiring and all seems to be good per your descriptions.

This gave me some ideas and tell me if I am wrong:

There are ball bearings in the brush tubes according to the parts diagram that I have. I cannot see them. Are they supposed to be there?

One of the brushes has the spring falling off not staying connected when it comes out like the other. 

Could this all be fixed by just replacing brushes and ball bearings? I know the brushes are needed to run the motor, but if one is not working right, would the motor still run only in one direction?

Ideas?

M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

A fairly common complaint with these cars.   They have a double-wound armature for reversing, and, frequently, one of the armature wires will break at the solder joint.  I'd check that first.  

Good luck!

Mitch 

The wires look good at the solder joint

Joe L posted:

This morning, I tried the tests that you recommended. The following happened:

There are ball bearings in the brush tubes according to the parts diagram that I have. I cannot see them. Are they supposed to be there?

That's an optical illusion.  The one ball bearing goes at the top of the armature shaft. 

One of the brushes has the spring falling off not staying connected when it comes out like the other. 

Could this all be fixed by just replacing brushes and ball bearings? I know the brushes are needed to run the motor, but if one is not working right, would the motor still run only in one direction?

Unlikely, but it depends.  Is the motor hung up or jammed in the other direction?  Or is it completely dead? If it's hung up, it could be because the bearing ball is missing.  

Ideas?

Did you check both sets of wires coming from the coils?  I still suspect that's your problem.  Could be a broken wire internally in the coil.  

Mitch 

Here's a wiring diagram:  

Use a multimeter to check continuity through both coils.  If one is dead, there's your problem...

Mitch 

There are ball bearings in the brush tubes according to the parts diagram that I have. I cannot see them. Are they supposed to be there?

One of the brushes has the spring falling off not staying connected when it comes out like the other. 

Could this all be fixed by just replacing brushes and ball bearings? I know the brushes are needed to run the motor, but if one is not working right, would the motor still run only in one direction?

No ball bearings in the brush tubes.

It is very unlikely that replacing the brushes and springs would fix a problem with a double wound motor (like your trolley) running only in one direction.

It sounds like one of the windings (the one that doesn't work) is open.
If the joints are good at the slide plate terminals, and the two field wires are soldered to the same terminal (brush holder) on the brushplate, then you probably have a bad coil.

If you have an ohm meter, check each coil by putting one probe on the brush holder terminal that has the field wires attached, and each of the two slide plate terminals (one at a time).

Look closely at the field wires attached to the brush plate, one may be broken. (You have already inspected the wires to the slide plate)

It is not unusual for the wires to break, usually right where they enter the coil form.

M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

Joe L posted:

This morning, I tried the tests that you recommended. The following happened:

There are ball bearings in the brush tubes according to the parts diagram that I have. I cannot see them. Are they supposed to be there?

That's an optical illusion.  The one ball bearing goes at the top of the armature shaft. 

One of the brushes has the spring falling off not staying connected when it comes out like the other. 

Could this all be fixed by just replacing brushes and ball bearings? I know the brushes are needed to run the motor, but if one is not working right, would the motor still run only in one direction?

Unlikely, but it depends.  Is the motor hung up or jammed in the other direction?  Or is it completely dead? If it's hung up, it could be because the bearing ball is missing.  

Ideas?

Did you check both sets of wires coming from the coils?  I still suspect that's your problem.  Could be a broken wire internally in the coil.  

Mitch 

Thanks, I thought that was odd with the ball bearing going in the brush tube.

The motor runs great in the one direction. I think I am going to try new brushes and springs as they would probably need to be replaced in the near future anyway.

The wires coming out of the coils look good. What I am afraid of is that the coil has a break inside that field coil winding and at that point I will have to unwind and then rewind that field coil which can be a real pain.

Is that what you suggest?

Ok, sounds good, I will check the coils and if they are bad, it looks like I have something to do this weekend 

Joe L posted:

Thanks, I thought that was odd with the ball bearing going in the brush tube.

The motor runs great in the one direction. I think I am going to try new brushes and springs as they would probably need to be replaced in the near future anyway.

The wires coming out of the coils look good. What I am afraid of is that the coil has a break inside that field coil winding and at that point I will have to unwind and then rewind that field coil which can be a real pain.

Is that what you suggest?

Pretty much, yeah.  Or get a replacement field assembly.  ;^.^ 

New brushes and springs can't hurt, but this increasingly seems like a bad coil to me.  Do that continuity check and get back to us.    

Mitch 

I just repaired a nice #60 (even had the Motormen).  It was also one direction.  When it was supposed to run back I touched the left brush solder joint.  The motor kicked in.  One of the two copper wires was just hovering above the solder.  I cleaned the end, tinned it and resoldered it to the brush connection.  Clean and new lube, repair complete.

The right side terminal didn't appear to have a great solder joint. Hard to tell. A "cold" (cracked) solder joint could do it. (they often crack around a wire or leg, barely perceptible by eye. Techs tend to touch all points with a soldering iron in a problem area vs search for something you can hardly find by eye anyhow. Remove that brush deck first though

So...I found a break in the field winding on one of the wires, I rewound it, cleaned the ends of the wires off and resoldered, will let you all know how it ends up when I get to test it tonight when I get home.

Thanks so much for all the info!

Glad to help!  Looking forward to hearing the test results!   

Mitch 

That broken wire in the coil was the culprit! I fixed it and it works like it just came out of the wrappings! Like a brand new train! Thanks guys!

Attaboy!  Good work!  

Mitch 

Was the wire broken where it entered the coil, or elsewhere?

C W Burfle posted:

Was the wire broken where it entered the coil, or elsewhere?

The wire was broken about a quarter of an inch into the coil, you could not see it, the only way I found it was with a continuity test, then I took a needle nose pliers and lightly pulled on the lead and it came out. Naturally it was the on on the bottom, (the wire at the beginning of the coil) so I had to rewrap the entire coil.

Thanks

Joe L posted:

C W Burfle posted:

Was the wire broken where it entered the coil, or elsewhere?

The wire was broken about a quarter of an inch into the coil, you could not see it, the only way I found it was with a continuity test, then I took a needle nose pliers and lightly pulled on the lead and it came out. Naturally it was the on on the bottom, (the wire at the beginning of the coil) so I had to rewrap the entire coil.

Do we perhaps have another example of "one on top of another" double winding, ala this thread a few weeks back?

https://ogrforum.com/...86#75762911755339286

Yes, mine is one on top of the other. I can tell that it came from the factory that way though as the windings were perfectly wound, something you can't really do by hand.

C W Burfle posted:

If so, test by putting one lead to the rollers, and the other test lead on each of those contact plate terminals, one at a time. The motor should run in opposite directions for each terminal.

My no. 60 trolley also developed this problem of running in only one direction.

I did the above test, and the motor runs only when a lead is connected to one of the contact plate terminals.

I also did the other test you suggested. I used my multimeter to check continuity on each coil by putting one probe on the brush holder terminal that has the field wires attached, and the other on each of the two slide plate terminals (one at a time). There was continuity in both cases.

I'm puzzled.

@Keith L: 

Sounds like the contact plate or contact spring may be dirty or faulty.  Have you tried cleaning them?

Mitch 

M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

@Keith L: 

Sounds like the contact plate or contact spring may be dirty or faulty.  Have you tried cleaning them?

Mitch 

Thanks for the suggestion, but I already cleaned both with CRC electronic cleaner and the continuity is good.

Let's go back to the wiring diagram:  

Both armatures are connected to one brush,  so be sure the contact plate is isolated from the contact, or you could get a false continuity reading via the other contact.  

Keep us posted!   

Mitch