Lionel Congressional Passenger Cars

They're all the same length.  Roughly 15".

Stu

Good question.  The years have made my mind a bit fuzzy wrt product made back then.    But as I recall, there were no significant differences between the 1977-era Pennsy cars and those from the 2000 set.  Cars from both eras were 15" aluminum with passenger silhouette windows.

Back in the day, you'd often pay premiums for the dining car or vista dome car in these sets.  But time has pretty much equalized prices for everything.  Probably easy to find the 2000 set w/GG1 at a very good price.  I sold mine several years ago when I was selling off my MPC/LTI stuff.  As I recall, cars from either era interchanged nicely.  So you'd have no problem mixing the 1977 add-ons with the 2000 train.

For my tastes, the postwar Lionel originals are not worth any significant premium -- certainly not by today's standards.

David

There actually were eight cars in the extended MPC era set, with six originally issued in 1979 and the other two added in 1981 and 1983.  You mention the Paul Revere and Thomas Edison, so you may not be counting the John Hancock dining car from 1983.  IMHO these are impressive in appearance and good quality in the realm of 15" extruded aluminum streamline passenger cars without sprung trucks and diaphragms and with passenger silhouette windows instead of detailed interiors. They also would be a fantastic value if you could get all eight cars in excellent or better condition in the range of $300 or less and don't have a personal need to own the latest and greatest (ref. 2007 18" edition).

What, me worry?

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Good question.  The years have made my mind a bit fuzzy wrt product made back then.    But as I recall, there were no significant differences between the 1977-era Pennsy cars and those from the 2000 set.  Cars from both eras were 15" aluminum with passenger silhouette windows.

Back in the day, you'd often pay premiums for the dining car or vista dome car in these sets.  But time has pretty much equalized prices for everything.  Probably easy to find the 2000 set w/GG1 at a very good price.  I sold mine several years ago when I was selling off my MPC/LTI stuff.  As I recall, cars from either era interchanged nicely.  So you'd have no problem mixing the 1977 add-ons with the 2000 train.

For my tastes, the postwar Lionel originals are not worth any significant premium -- certainly not by today's standards.

David

Thanks so much. You answered the very question I had. Once I get a set of the various cars they will be pulled by a Silver Scale O JLC GG1.  I will first have to figure out how to get a TMCC engine working on my Legacy layout. Hopefully that will not be a big deal. Much appreciate your help

Alfred E Neuman posted:

There actually were eight cars in the extended MPC era set, with six originally issued in 1979 and the other two added in 1981 and 1983.  You mention the Paul Revere and Thomas Edison, so you may not be counting the John Hancock dining car from 1983.  IMHO these are impressive in appearance and good quality in the realm of 15" extruded aluminum streamline passenger cars without sprung trucks and diaphragms and with passenger silhouette windows instead of detailed interiors. They also would be a fantastic value if you could get all eight cars in excellent or better condition in the range of $300 or less and don't have a personal need to own the latest and greatest (ref. 2007 18" edition).

What, me worry?

Glad you mentioned the John Hancock Car as I did not know it even existed. Has anyone come up with a complete list of all of the various Congressional cars made regardless of the year produced. Seems like some of the earliest ones were not made later on in 2000 and beyond. Much appreciate you assistance.

Whistlebell1:

I have all the original (1977) cars plus all the add-ons in either new or like new condition. Please e-mail me if interested. Could not find your email address in your profile.

Hal

whistlebell1 posted:

Has anyone come up with a complete list of all of the various Congressional cars made regardless of the year produced.

Can't help with the 18-inch versions from the 2006-2007 Lionel catalogs or any other manufacturers but believe this is a complete list of the 15-inch Lionel versions:

Postwar

2541 Alexander Hamilton observation (1955-56)

2542 Betsy Ross vista dome (1955-56)

2543 William Penn coach (1955-56)

2544 Molly Pitcher coach (1955-56)

MPC

7208 John Hancock dining (1983u)

9569 Paul Revere combine (1981u)

9570 Railway Express baggage (1979)

9571 William Penn coach (1979)

9572 Molly Pitcher coach (1979)

9573 Betsy Ross vista dome (1979)

9574 Alexander Hamilton observation (1979)

9575 Pennsylvania Thomas Edison coach (1979u-80)

Postwar Celebration

39100  William Penn coach (2000)

39101 Molly Pitcher coach (2000)

39102 Betsy Ross vista dome (2000)

39103 Alexander Hamilton observation (2000)

39155 Railway Express baggage (2002)

39156 Robert Morris dining (2002)

39198 Johns Hopkins coach (2002)

Running a TMCC locomotive on Legacy is not an issue, but you may want to think twice about running 15-inch cars behind that scale GG1 at 20-inches.  Seems to me it may look odd, but what do I know?    

Just what I wanted!! Really nice list and with years produced... even better.  Thanks so much for putting it together. When you you say it may look odd if I use a Scale GG1 do you think its too long at 20 inches? Is that your thought?.  For the real trains was it more of a 1 to 1 ratio length wise rather than a GG1 being so much longer? (20 inches vrs 15 inch cars)? Again, much appreciate your help!

HMS2035 posted:

Whistlebell1:

I have all the original (1977) cars plus all the add-ons in either new or like new condition. Please e-mail me if interested. Could not find your email address in your profile.

Hal

Thanks I will keep this in mind. Trying to decide if I want the longer cars or the shorter ones.

Lionel sold the 15 inch cars with the short GG1, so I guess it's what looks right to you. I have the 1970s cars and they look OK to me but I'm not a rivet counter.

whistlebell1 posted:

When you you say it may look odd if I use a Scale GG1 do you think its too long at 20 inches? Is that your thought?.  For the real trains was it more of a 1 to 1 ratio length wise rather than a GG1 being so much longer? (20 inches vrs 15 inch cars)? 

Just thinking in terms of realism.  Some of the streamlined coaches (at 85') were longer than the GG1 (at 79'6"), although the 18" Congressional cars only represent 72' scale.  Also thinking in the toy train realm about other passenger train sets I own, none of which have locomotives significantly longer than the passenger cars.

Another possibility you may consider is opting for 18" - 21" plastic heavyweight cars to avoid breaking the bank. This Train Simulator video showing a silver GG1 pulling Tuscan heavyweights may give you an idea how that would look.

And here's a set of four 18" PRR heavyweights for $265 (not my listing and not associated with the seller, to be clear) as an example.

I see your point.  I really like the many historic car names in the 15 inch Congressional car versions and yet I like the silver scale GG1. I guess at this point in my life I can have the luxury of not being too precise, if I dont want to. It's funny, but I just realized that I have my O Scale Polar Express Engine (1225) pulling an entire consist of all of the Regular O PE cars. I actually had the O scale PE passenger cars but did not like them and sold them. It will be interesting to see what Lionel's new 21inch Broadway Limited cars look like. They should be out soon. I am going to get them for the Vision GG1's I purchased.  What Color GG1 mostly pulled the Broadway Limited in the late 1940's, Tuscan or Brunswick Green?  By the way, that was a very cool video you attached.  Did you create that digital consist to show me what it looked like? Is that software available anywhere? That would be great for creating a visual preview before you buy something.  In any event, thanks so much for your comments. Much appreciated!

whistlebell1 posted:

Alfred E Neuman posted:

There actually were eight cars in the extended MPC era set, with six originally issued in 1979 and the other two added in 1981 and 1983.  You mention the Paul Revere and Thomas Edison, so you may not be counting the John Hancock dining car from 1983.  IMHO these are impressive in appearance and good quality in the realm of 15" extruded aluminum streamline passenger cars without sprung trucks and diaphragms and with passenger silhouette windows instead of detailed interiors. They also would be a fantastic value if you could get all eight cars in excellent or better condition in the range of $300 or less and don't have a personal need to own the latest and greatest (ref. 2007 18" edition).

What, me worry?

Glad you mentioned the John Hancock Car as I did not know it even existed. Has anyone come up with a complete list of all of the various Congressional cars made regardless of the year produced. Seems like some of the earliest ones were not made later on in 2000 and beyond. Much appreciate you assistance.

I Have all the Postwar cars and the MPC Cars. I do not have the Celebration Cars. 

I am still looking for the AMT Pennsy cars that started the whole thing

Buzz

I have the MPC era set which my Father set up each Christmas under the tree.  This has F3 A-A locomotives but I bought a Conventional Classics tuscan GG1 to run with these cars.

The Thomas Edison car used to go for a minimum of $100 as an add on back when it came out. 

Previous advice on not using the scale GG1 with the 60' (15") cars is so true, the locomotive will look way too big in front of the traditional Lionel cars. 

The MPC version of the Congressional cars are the first aluminum passenger cars l purchased.  I have all eight in their original boxes.  Never really understood why Lionel used an Orange and Blue box for the 6-7208 John Hancock Dining Car when all the others came in the White and Red boxes.

l have Tuscan F3 ABA engines to pull them with.  I should get all of them out one of these days.  Wonder if 135 watts is enough to run everything?  Those Pulmors like a lot of power.

Greg,  nice that you have the B unit!  I have heard those are harder to find.

I understand that the postwar examples do command a premium, and aren't your preference, but another reason for avoiding them is their resistance to rolling.  It the major reason why dual motored GG1's couldn't haul more than a set of 5.  The fast angle wheel sets sure improved things.  The modern era equivalents are definitely a better deal all around, especially for us operators.  If I was in the market, I'd seriously consider new from Williams, rather than used Lionel.

Bruce

VistaDomeScott posted:

... The Thomas Edison car used to go for a minimum of $100 as an add on back when it came out. 

...  

Those diners and vista dome cars often went for $225+ in their day.  $100 would have been a bargain.    Today, nobody gives those add-ons a second look for a premium price.

Sounds like you have a decision to make.  If you want to stay with the JLC scale GG-1, the 18" cars are the way to go.  If you prefer the 15" cars, then grab a traditional size GG-1 for your train.

David

A great memory I have regarding this set was my Father and my Uncle both buying this set and one Christmas they both added Thomas Edison cars.  I am happy to keep these trains ready to run on Christmas rails so many years later and memories alive.

VistaDomeScott posted:

A great memory I have regarding this set was my Father and my Uncle both buying this set and one Christmas they both added Thomas Edison cars.  I am happy to keep these trains ready to run on Christmas rails so many years later and memories alive.

And that's what it's all about!  

VistaDomeScott posted:

Greg,  nice that you have the B unit!  I have heard those are harder to find.

 

A bit off topic but If we are talking about the PRR Tuscan F3 AA set 6-8970 and the add on B unit 6-8060 and you are looking for the B unit, be careful when purchasing a B.  The one I have has a slightly warped frame and I was told by a service station years ago that was common with them.  The one I have isn't bad but some become unusable I was told.

Tony

GregM posted:

I never understood why Lionel used an Orange and Blue box for the 6-7208 John Hancock Dining Car when all the others came in the White and Red boxes.

Greg.. the difference in boxes appears to be because the Hancock car was the last of the MPC cars released (1983),  while the one prior to it was released in 1981 (all according to the above list).  It appears that somewhere between those two years, Lionel changed over to the orange/blue packaging.

I have the first four cars from the Postwar Celebration series; 39100, 01, 02, and 03.

Please contact me at jooper@ucpcentralpa.org if you would like to purchase them. they are mint new in box.

PaperTRW, a Forum member, used to work at Lionel for a number of years. One of the areas for which he was responsible was development of locomotives/rolling stock. For the postwar celebration GG1 and aluminum passenger cars he explained to me that he went through a great deal of research to make sure the colors and even the font/letter spacing was identical to the postwar models of the GG1 and the passenger cars, in order to provide the ideal product to the collector/operator. 

RadioRon posted:

GregM posted:

I never understood why Lionel used an Orange and Blue box for the 6-7208 John Hancock Dining Car when all the others came in the White and Red boxes.

Greg.. the difference in boxes appears to be because the Hancock car was the last of the MPC cars released (1983),  while the one prior to it was released in 1981 (all according to the above list).  It appears that somewhere between those two years, Lionel changed over to the orange/blue packaging.

I didn't make my point clearly.  Yes, Lionel had changed to the orange/blue boxes by then.  l just think Lionel should have purchased white/red boxes for the Hancock dining cars since all the previous cars in the series came in the white/red boxes.  

Back in the 80s my dad had the Mpc 8 car congressional. I always thought these cars were some of the nicest mpc equipment made and they looked great with the mpc short gg1 or prr f3 set. We always used the green gg1, although a Tuscan or silver would be more appropriate for the congressional. Of course, over time hi rail scale trains have surpassed these oldies (think of the scale congressionals made in recent years from ggd) and scale gg1s. However, for those going for the post was look, the mpc congressionals will make a fine train!

my advice. Don't use the scale gg1 with the mpc cars. It is way too long. The scale mpc f3s look fine since they are short locos anyways.  Btw I do remember the last add on car coming in the orange box. Seemed odd, but it looks nicer than the white boxes.  

I had my 8 car Congressional set up & running for Christmas this year.

I am thinking about adding interiors to my 15" Congressional cars.  

Where could I buy a pre-made unit that would fit into these?? Maybe an 18"- or even a 21" interior, modified??