Lionel General Locomotive

Hi Matt,

Three words - Condition, condition, condition.

But then you have to consider which model and is there a box(s) included.

The two original PW generals are the 1862 and the 1872 with the 1862 being more of a 'plain Jane' model. The 1872 has smoke, more trim, Magne-Traction (I think), was designated a 'Super O' General and is considerably more desirable.

Another early model is the 'Halloween General' so named because of the mainly orange and black colors. Similar in features to the 1862 model it was produced in much lower numbers, hence a degree of rarity must be factored in. The coach car produced was blue instead of yellow and is also scarce.

c.sam is correct, condition matters alot. I have one - not sure why - but its in poor condition and I bought it for a song.  Some of the rarer cars and versions are hard to find and when they go on sales there is a body of folks ready to jump on it and big the price up.

But keep in mind that people can ask anything, so prices are all over the map and some are just totally unreasonable.  Add to this that this loco seems to attract more than its share of buyers who don't do their homework on prices, etc., and a few pay more than they really have to and thus leave records at auction sites, etc., that at least some recorded prices are very high.

Post war Lionel Generals are becoming more difficult to find especially the 1862 version with smoke and Magne-traction in good condition.  Since we are talking "toy trains" here and not museum models, the design of the Lionel General had to incorporate space for the pullmor motor and puffing smoke mechanism.  The smoke mechanism takes up most of the inside boiler space.  I myself like the looks of the Lionel General and wish they would release one with more high end fan driven smoke, steam whistle, led headlight and Legacy. 

I believe technology in the "miniature" electronics can produce what is needed for Legacy operation and sounds in smaller form than Lionel has today.  A smaller fan driven smoke system can also be reduced in size.  I believe the cost for miniturizing for the General is not cost effective for Lionel..........it would be nice to see though.

TEX

Steve

thanks guys, I knew I could get a pretty concise history of the General pretty quick.  

I am drawn to the early steam and think an original paint scheme General is something I'd like to have.   There seems to be pretty nice ones available for $100-$150, but they are not the old issues as talked about and they are not the Super O. 

I think it's possible one of these newer ones would work for me.  I do like smoke in any loco, but mostly they will just set on the track.   The passenger cars also seem readily available individually.   I can probably pick up what I want for $200 or less, but if I look for a set, it seems to be closer to $300.  

The issues that come in white boxes seem to be most common.   Would these be from the 70/80's maybe?   I assume this was the low point for Lionel.   from reading I get the impression that those years were not the best for Lionel products.

I do appreciate the info.

Nothing wrong with the 1980's MPC version, but then again there is nothing like the PW Five Star General set from 1959-61.  I picked mine up about 10 years ago, these days it will set you back about $500 - $750 on the bay but deals are out there:

Beautiful General set James.  Great find. 

TEX

Steve

Thanks!  The box is a little rough but you can't beat the original price.  "Um, I'll take 10, please."

The first "modern" release of the "General" from 77-79 was the 8701.  It came in a white box and is probably the one of which you are thinking.  This version is the one that most closely resembles the current paint scheme of the real "General" as it sits now in a museum.  I have one, and it is a pretty solid runner, and the one my brother had as a kid was pretty solid as well.  It is my favorite Lionel "General," and it is pretty easy to find in good shape.

Lionel has done a lot of different "General" style locomotives since then, with the most recent versions having sound.  Some of the early 80's versions were very cheap and had DC motors which would need to be modified to run with today's transformers.

OGR did a couple of articles about Lionel's "General" sets in the early 90's  - Run 121 covered the Postwar sets, and Run 122 covered the sets from 1977-1991.

Andy

The 5 Star General Set is indeed a beauty. If you are not overly concerned about 'Lionel fidelity' and want a passenger consist, consider looking at the MTH Overton cars that have been produced in several road names. They look much more like real 1800s passenger cars and have nice detail and overhead lighting.

I had one of the more recent Lionel Generals, but I was pretty unimpressed with both the cheap plastic and the poor performance.  I picked up the MTH General and upgraded it to PS/2, that's a much nicer locomotive, at least IMO.  It also has great smoke with the fan driven MTH smoke unit.

trainz website has a detailed atricle about all the Lionel Generals:

http://www.trainz.com/t-generals.aspx

IMHO the MTH loco has an awkward look to it.  I am a big fan of the Lionel Generals and have collected a fair number of them.  I also still have my original 1862 that I received at the age of 10.  My favorites are the JC Penny one and the Disneyland RR 35th anniversary loco. 

Well, I wanted to run it and covert it to command, the Lionel one had no pulling power to speak of, and I just didn't like the lousy smoke unit either.  The MTH is a nice runner, and looks close enough for me.

Funny, isn't it how we perceive things like this? Having some previous experience with Lionel's Super O General when the MTH Rail King model first came out, my best friend bought one from us at the shop. It ran great, smoked like a 4 alarm fire and the horse sounds were terrific. As nice as it was, it still looked odd to me.

Interesting thing is the Lionel General is far from 'scale' and too big, yet it looks the best IMO!

Sam, I could  not have said it better myself.  The Lionel General might be too large, not in scale and other imperfections.......but it was the one I saw on display when I was a kid and I wanted it so badly.  Boy, do I remember that day at the hobby shop.

TEX

Steve

I guess that's why Baskin Robbins makes 87 flavors, one for everyone.  I found mine!

I have always liked the look of the Lionel Generals, and I am really excited to have the new Pennsylvania one on preorder!

The Pennsy set is available at really great pricing.   I've seen it at as low as $240.  I have the Rio Grande General and the sound is not nearly as good as it is on the Polar Express tender I bought.  I would have thought they would be very similar.   But..I figured the Pennsy might be worth buying for a repaint or parts for an old General that has missing items.    I have learned a lot about the old General engines from you guys and appreciate all the info.

I wouldn't go so far as to cannibalize a new General-type loco for parts.  There are lots of original replacement parts out there.

I also have the Pennsy version on pre-order.  I try to stick mostly with W&ARR versions, but I also like the PRR, and I have been looking for an excuse to get a set with the new style coaches.

Andy

I am hoping that the PRR general uses the sound units from this set:

I don't know how the "chuff" sounds, but if it sounds as good as the whistle, I would be very happy.

I've got the Rio Grande general set and love it.  The sound leaves a lot to be desired, same for the smoke unit.  I am hoping to build a passenger consist as well as a vat car of TNT and gunpowder consist.  That looks great with a sheriff and outlaw shooting at each other from those pop up cars.

JC Penney Issue

What I don't understand is why Lionel as of late, has been equipping their Gerneral with roller-bearing style trucks instead of the period-appropriate archbar trucks that they developed for the General during the postwar period.  The Lone Ranger Set and the W&ARR green & black General sets are two that come to mind.  Yeah, I know the archbar trucks were plastic and those roller bearing are die cast, but still, they better represent the era so why doesn't Lionel just make diecast versions of those trucks?

(Click on the images below to see larger size)

Postwar from Trainz.com website (with archbar trucks).

Modern-day W&ARR General with incorrect "roller bearing" trucks:

Does anyone know if it is possible to obtain a General-type Trainsounds or Railsounds tender at a reasonable price (without the loco).  I have the Goldrush set from years ago and would like to add sound without using a Railsounds boxcar.

Thanks,

X2000

Ebay would likely be your best, but if it were me I would just add the ERR railsounds kit.  The only question I would have is whether it could all fit in the tender, but I would think it could be made to fit, albeit a tight fit.  

If the newer versions have sound, my guess  would be that the roller bearing truck provides a better, or cheaper (based on existing parts) mounting for the collector and the trigger or reed switch.  But that's just a guess.

http://www.lionel.com/products...e/2013rtr/index.html

THis is the new Pennsy General.  It has sound.  And Arch Bar Trucks.  As do the current production Generals.  ONLY the Green/Black WARR and the Lone Ranger engine were produced with the Roller Bearing trucks.  It was a temporary measure to provide pickups.

OK. As I said, it was a guess.  It must have been a burst of irrationality at Lionel . . . .

What I don't understand is the price difference between the Penn General & Medal of Honor set. Nearly $100. There is no licensing issue, some cars may be different, but I don't believe that would justify the price difference.

Medal of Honor set?  I didn't see that one.  Which catalog?

It is on page 100-101 of the Lionel 2013 Signature Edition catalog.