http://www.lionelstore.com/category/Brass-Hybrid
Lionel now making BRASS locomotives with legacy on die cast tender frame.
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A Santa Fe 2-8-2. Didn't see that coming.
I have tears of joy!
An actual Santa Fe 3100 Class 2-8-2.
Good choice.
Rusty
Pretty pricey even for a brass Mikado!
Such hype to announce a brass engine on a diecast frame. IMHO, seemed like PR overkill.
Love it, best of both worlds. Now make me some NYC
Nice looking engine.
I cant wait. Nice choice, i just tried to preorder. Is this now directly thru lionel? I stopped short thinking i better call my usual dealer first.
If it's Lionel order only I will not be buying one
Bring on the Frisco 1500-class!
Selling direct and bypassing your dealer / distributor network who have supported you for decades .... that isn't a very good idea. 
Lionel needed to throw a bone to our brass friends! :-)
Just my opinion but, I was not impressed with the sharpness of the investment castings, shown in the video. I'll stick with Sunset/3rd Rail, which is generally less expensive that Lionel "high end" steam models, plus I don't care for "smoking whistles" nor "swinging bells".
DaveSlie posted:Selling direct and bypassing your dealer / distributor network who have supported you for decades .... that isn't a very good idea.
Seems to me like "the Ghost of RMT past." With that philosophy have they possibly replaced Mike R. with Walter M.?
Super O Bob posted:I cant wait. Nice choice, i just tried to preorder. Is this now directly thru lionel? I stopped short thinking i better call my usual dealer first.
This locomotive will only be available directly from Lionel.
Tinplate Art posted:Pretty pricey even for a brass Mikado!
3rd Rail's CB&Q Mikado is $1499...
Rusty
I normally would not comment but I think being a loyal Lionel Dealer that this move to sell these engines direct is an insult to all authorized dealers.
Best Regards
Pat
Rusty Traque posted:Tinplate Art posted:Pretty pricey even for a brass Mikado!
3rd Rail's CB&Q Mikado is $1499...
Rusty
OK, but how much will that Lionel Santa Fe Mikado be, with absolutely NO "dealer discounts"? I'll still stick with Sunset/3rd Rail, which has ALL BRASS Construction.
Noticed the video says Also Bluetooth. I wonder if all legacy engines will be that way soon.
I am surprised about the comments regarding cost. Is $1,200 or so for a brass locomotive out of line these days? I thought not. Expensive yes. More than the other brass providers in multiple scales, including Sunset, I think not. Checking Sunset's website, HO steam locos are in this price range. The O steam locos are hundreds of dollars more. So unless Lionel's attention to detail is significantly less, these are relatively less expensive than the competition. And they have Legacy and full operating features that Lionel does not provide to Sunset. No knock on Sunset, just the facts as known to date.
PATSTRAINS posted:I normally would not comment but I think being a loyal Lionel Dealer that this move to sell these engines direct is an insult to all authorized dealers.
Best Regards
Pat
Look at it this way Pat: given Lionel's recent lack of quality control, they may be doing you a favor as you won't be in the middle between Lionel and a very aggravated customer. That being said, on the bigger issue I completely understand.
jojofry posted:Noticed the video says Also Bluetooth. I wonder if all legacy engines will be that way soon.
I saw that too. I'm curious how the Legacy features will behave with the the light LC App.
And BTW I just tried the pre-order process and it appears you pay 100% UP FRONT! And the least expensive delivery to me is $49.95 (which they also appear to want up front.) Given Lionel's on time delivery history they may have your money for quite a while.
They generously will wait to collect sales tax until it ships!
I won't buy anything until I see the actual product first. Too many blunders by all the mfgs.
Landsteiner posted:I am surprised about the comments regarding cost. Is $1,200 or so for a brass locomotive out of line these days? I thought not. Expensive yes. More than the other brass providers in multiple scales, including Sunset, I think not. Checking Sunset's website, HO steam locos are in this price range. The O steam locos are hundreds of dollars more. So unless Lionel's attention to detail is significantly less, these are relatively less expensive than the competition. And they have Legacy and full operating features that Lionel does not provide to Sunset. No knock on Sunset, just the facts as known to date.
Instead of the typical die cast shell, it's a brass shell but not an ALL brass engine.
I wonder if this is being done with the WEAVER dies?
laz1957 posted:I wonder if this is being done with the WEAVER dies?
Brass locomotives are not made with dies.
laz1957 posted:I wonder if this is being done with the WEAVER dies?
Weaver did not have "dies" for their imported brass locomotive line, as brass steam models are all "hand made" boilers, etc. with "lost wax" investment cast add-on features. Even the brass unuerframes were all machined out of brass bar stock. Thus, there were/are NO "dies", as in "diecast" models.
Is the new locomotive made from brass castings from molds or fabricated from sheet brass? Cast brass can be from molds just as well and as easily as Zamak can be. The advantage of cast brass is that the castings are usually stronger and that brass is usually more forgiving of trace impurities.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
I absolutely love Lionel products. I was a little disappointed by the announcement. I'm not a fan of brass trains. However; I can see why the brass fans would love this announcement.
WBC posted:Is the new locomotive made from brass castings from molds or fabricated from sheet brass?
Modern day brass models have fabricated sheet brass boilers, cabs, and tender bodies. Way back in the 1950s, or so, there were indeed some "cast brass" steam locomotive models, but they tended to be pretty crude toking.
Cast brass can be from molds just as well and as easily as Zamak can be.
For small details and add-on components, yes as in "lost wax" investment castings. But not for major components like boilers & cabs, as the castings would be too thick in order to be strong enough.
The advantage of cast brass is that the castings are usually stronger and that brass is usually more forgiving of trace impurities.
True, but not necessarily for boiler, etc..
I hope in the near future, we will be able to see some more unique PRR steam locos with this type of arrangement. no more G5's but g3's or the PRR camelback or the USRA 2-10-2 and the PRR N2sa rebuild!
PATSTRAINS posted:I normally would not comment but I think being a loyal Lionel Dealer that this move to sell these engines direct is an insult to all authorized dealers.
Best Regards
Pat
I agree. The Roundhouse South has been a Lionel dealer for almost 30 years and contrary to the e mail we received today this most certainly is a precursor to direct selling. This will not help the hobby or the guy who buys on layaway (and we have quite a few who do), the impulse buyer or the hobbyist that wants to see what he/she is buying before plunking down that kind of money.
About time!
It's obvious that the high end of the 3rail market is getting tired of mass produced "close enough" die cast engines which have to keep being reissued in order to cover the cost of tooling. A lot more variety, and hopefully accuracy, should be possible with this construction. I hope for Lionel's sake that this engine is well made and well received, and the beginning of a long and successful line.
But how things change! Ten or fifteen years ago, this announcement would have been met with cries of "Brass?!?! Lionels aren't brass! Brass is flimsy, brass is light, give me back my big, heavy, manly die-cast!!" Now, we hear, "Why does it have a die-cast frame?!?! It's not brass enough!"
Hot Water posted:WBC posted:Is the new locomotive made from brass castings from molds or fabricated from sheet brass?
Modern day brass models have fabricated sheet brass boilers, cabs, and tender bodies. Way back in the 1950s, or so, there were indeed some "cast brass" steam locomotive models, but they tended to be pretty crude toking.
Cast brass can be from molds just as well and as easily as Zamak can be.
For small details and add-on components, yes as in "lost wax" investment castings. But not for major components like boilers & cabs, as the castings would be too thick in order to be strong enough.
The advantage of cast brass is that the castings are usually stronger and that brass is usually more forgiving of trace impurities.
True, but not necessarily for boiler, etc..
I was just going by
https://www.rheocast.com/brass...nRwtMCFUKSfgodx_EEMA
who does high pressure brass die casting work and seems to be able to make highly detailed brass castings.
WBC posted:Hot Water posted:WBC posted:Is the new locomotive made from brass castings from molds or fabricated from sheet brass?
Modern day brass models have fabricated sheet brass boilers, cabs, and tender bodies. Way back in the 1950s, or so, there were indeed some "cast brass" steam locomotive models, but they tended to be pretty crude toking.
Cast brass can be from molds just as well and as easily as Zamak can be.
For small details and add-on components, yes as in "lost wax" investment castings. But not for major components like boilers & cabs, as the castings would be too thick in order to be strong enough.
The advantage of cast brass is that the castings are usually stronger and that brass is usually more forgiving of trace impurities.
True, but not necessarily for boiler, etc..
I was just going by
https://www.rheocast.com/brass...nRwtMCFUKSfgodx_EEMA
who does high pressure brass die casting work and seems to be able to make highly detailed brass castings.
Yes but, remember that the boilers on model steam locomotives are NOT solid, thus they are made out of sheet brass.
Panther97 posted:I absolutely love Lionel products. I was a little disappointed by the announcement. I'm not a fan of brass trains. However; I can see why the brass fans would love this announcement.
I am happy with this announcement, but I am far from a "brass fan," I am a fan of engines that will never get made any other way in O. Therefore, I hope Lionel will be encourages to make a wide variety by this means. They can even make yet another Hudson, if they want to. :-D
I don't think that Zamak cast boilers are solid are they?
Brass is stronger than Zamak
http://www.morehandles.co.uk/b...hoosing-door-handles
so it is reasonable to deduce that if a boiler of a locomotive can be cast using Zamak it could be cast from brass alloys just as easily.
With the recent failures Zamak castings from both MTH and Lionel as of late it seemed reasonable that using brass as the source material would be one way to avoid high profile failures in the future.
The big disadvantages for brass die casting seems to be cost and density. Brass is much more costly material than Zamak and is twice as dense. At the same casting thickness, a 6 pound Zamak die cast locomotive would weigh about 12 pounds if brass was used in the same mold.
Agreed that most likely fabricated from sheet brass as that is what is was is commonly used manufacturing technique for model trains.
Interesting new product. A rare nice surprise. Overall I think its a positive. Look through any post on this forum and it seems more and more modelers are demanding:
+ Scale fidelity and accuracy
+ Locomotives that are good runners with improved sound and smoke features.
Putting aside 3R vs 2R comments...
This appears to be Lionel building on their strengths (Legacy, proven control and die cast drive systems) and adapting to market demand (More prototypical brass representations.)
This particular model is not a road name I'm interested in purchasing, however I hope it is successful because I may very well be interested in the next offering depending on the prototype.
The economic/business model around direct sale and distribution is a different can of worms worthy of its own separate argument.
