low battery: issue?

Joe, What are you drinking in that basement?  G

Joe,

if the battery was low at that time when added, would charging it after adding help

Yes, it would.

GGG, he's still traumatized after losing his ----ear and becoming an engineer.

Yes, the good stuff, and Yes, what happened!! I liked the 'near even if I had to 'splain myself over and over.

Joe/Barry, I guess I am confused.  If the engine added even with a low battery (successfully), how does charging improve the add process?  G

I wouldn't have guessed it would help. Maybe if it was borderline it would complete if left on the rails for a few extra moments? Maybe the board tries the task repeatedly?

 I ask the questions only!

I've had a few engines sit for so long before I bought them, I've wondered how long they could hold a charge?

G,

If the engine added even with a low battery (successfully), how does charging improve the add process?

Because when you added it, if you didn't check the battery first and wanted to run it now (some of us just need instant gratification! ) you wouldn't necessarily know if the battery was strong enough to hold the DCS ID#, if the add process changed it.

Charging the battery after the add, but before track power is turned off, could ensure that the new DCS ID# "stuck".

It's not what I would do, however, that's why there are 9 horses in a race.  

Engineer-Joe,

   As Barry indicated charging the battery would definitley help, however I always recommend the BCR for P2 engines, the P3 has a form of BCR built right into the

engines.  I always recommend that when a battery needs replaced, install the BCR.

No more worries about battery charging ever again with the BCR.

PCRR/Dave

Barry,  I understand that, I assume when added "successfully", that meant the ID stuck.
 Wasn't sure if Joe is talking about the speed of the add.  Battery won't effect that unless it is bad, and the 5V processor voltage is dragged down.  G

G,

Top me "added successfully" means what it says, i.e., the engine was added to the remote.

 So far, I have only one make that two engines now that have batteries causing issues. The first, a BCR2 was installed and all issues went away. That engine had seen a tough life of a board failure and repeated shipping and testing without good running time. It runs perfect ever since, and I was ready to swap out the boards again before the BCR2.

 The next engine that came last month, was an older release and used a good deal. I believe that the single ni-cads were just shot. I just ordered a BCR2 and will install it soon into this engine as well.

 The whole rest of my fleet of PS2 3volt engines, all have the stock batteries and run without issues. As the fleet grows older, I will swap out the batteries with BCR2s as needed. I just couldn't see spending tons of cash on replacing brand new batteries. They have lasted nearly ten years now for most.

 By the way, I don't have a single 5 volt board that I'm aware of. Maybe stashed away in the overstock pile somewhere though?

 I used to be more careful about adding engines and procedures. Once I established single engine adds with everything else dis-connected and adds became routine, I started getting complacent. This engine last month caught me by surprise as it wouldn't add at first. The system struggled. I finally realized that the 2 batteries were dead. I swapped them out for engine testing from another engine that has been stored for a good while now. It got me thinking (always a bad thing) that these batteries were probably needing a charge themselves. The add stuck, and I ran the engine for some time to fully test it. It's the second from the left, SFE silver warbonnet.

I just got a new engine in and the system added it much easier without any issue.

So batteries are my new growing problem because of their age and condition. Again, these are around ten years old?

Thanks for all the help guys. I get spoiled by quick answers, and no memory of my own. I'm not sure when I buy all these used engines, how they have been taken care of. With MTH returning to G scale, hopefully the new PS3 versions will remove any of these small issues.

 I must confess that I am that guy! I want it to run now!

If I understand the system correctly, The Add puts the Data in the Engine active memory and the Remote.

The Engine memory is not written into the Storage Memory of the Engine until power is terminated or the Engine is "Shut Down"

The danger of loading the engine with a low battery is the engine hitting a dead spot in the track and powering down prior to getting a decent charge on the battery.

Then you have an engine in the remote at some address but it still has the old address in the engine memory. IE comes up, engine not on track or Not Found

Russell,

The Engine memory is not written into the Storage Memory of the Engine until power is terminated or the Engine is "Shut Down"

That's half right.

Turning Turning off track power causes the engine to attempt to use battery power to save any changes, including a new or changed DCS ID#. However, merely issuing a Shutdown command does not.

Ahhh, wasn't sure but thought so, Next time I'll look it up.

Thanks Barry.

 Well, rather than getting new batteries, I got a BCR2 here on the forum and put it in the NS Dash 8 G scale, that I borrowed the batteries out of. I got the extra plug I needed, by removing the battery holder from the bottom of the engine. It has a set of cables that go two different places. One goes to the PS2 board. The other goes to a small splice board that jumps to the recharging jack behind the door. Because I don't want that used anymore, I made a cable from these two plugs. One end goes into the PS2 board. The other end goes into the BCR2's jack that uses the common jack and plug from inside the engine.

 She fired right up with low volume, and after about 60 seconds the volume cranked right up. I will probably do this method for all these older models as they lose their batteries. One less issue to blame on something else. 

Pine Creek, you & I usually agree on solutions, but I have to disagree on the BCR, because I now have 2 PS3 locos, and I much prefer a loco with a battery.  Everytime there is a power break (either a breaker or a power gap---I have some uncoupler tracks near switches, and the gaps are equal to distance of rollers on some locos), I can never be sure power is restored while the capacitor charges up.

Surely, a properly working BCR shouldn't discharge in a second or two, I've never seen this be an issue.

Guns,

   You are correct as usual, never saw this actually happen either.

PCRR/Dave

I was told that the BCR 2  I purchased would stay charged up for at least 1 hour.

If you shut down the loco by cutting power rather than pressing shutdown, it will discharge completely or substantially in a few seconds while it keeps the sounds on.

I don't know what happens if you press shutdown.

Robert,

I don't know what happens if you press shutdown.

To the BCR? Nothing at all.

Would there not be some drain by the PS2/PS3 unit when shut down, or it would be unable to receive a startup signal. 

Robert,

If shut down while track power is on, there is no effect on the BCR since the engine makes no demands upon it.

There is a small leakage current from the battery (or BCR) when power is off, that's what eventually discharges the BCR.  It usually takes more than an hour.

John,

There is a small leakage current from the battery (or BCR) when power is off

The question was regarding Shut Down, not power-off. Let's be clear and not confuse the issue.

GRJ, so there is always a drain on the battery in a PS2 loco, even when stored away.  I would have thought that the circuitry would be such that power would be totally off until the electronic equivalent of a relay received "coil" power from the track.

It is.  John, needs to define leakage.  The capacitors will discharge over time.  The battery also can loose charge over time, but that is a much slower process.  The leakage is not because the board is acting as a load.   G

There is a very small current, even when the locomotive is off the tracks.  It appears to be a bit under one micro-amp.   I suspect the capacitor self-discharge is the key factor here, though they're pretty good.

Gentlemen,

   At any rate it usually takes more than an hour to have an effect, IMO the BCR is the best way to go and absolutely mandatory for all P1 engines if you want to eliminate endangering the P1 electronics with a low battery.  IMO its better to simply replace the batteries in all your P2 engines as the batteries need changed.  The few sec you must wait for the P2 engine to come on line, becomes just part of your start up sequence as you run your layout.  Guns is also correct although the words small leakage of current might not have been the best wording, George's wording of Cap discharge over time is probably more correct, however both are saying the same identical technology.  If you store your P2 engine or display it like I do, when you put it back on the track, simply up the voltage and let it sit on the tracks for a minute and the BCR is back to full power.  IMO the BCR is great technology and a form of it is in all P3 engines.

PCRR/Dave