Would you like an online User's guide/manual or Help screen feature for MTH's DCS WIFI Premium App?

Barry B.'s digital book on MTH WiFi is now available. I downloaded it last week. Most excellent. You'll find it on MTH site. 

ogaugeguy posted:

Why has MTH chosen not to make a user guide or manual available for their DCS WiFi premium app? ?

The Wi-Fi DCS User’s Guide (download)  includes references to the premium app on page 33 and is the MTH Wi-Fi manual for the premium app.

Susan,

The Wi-Fi DCS User’s Guide (download)  includes references to the premium app on page 33

Actually, those references are to the Standard version of the DCS App, not the Premium version. The manual predates the Premium app by about a year or so.

Nobody anywhere could do it better than Barry did in his book.  It is the best.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Nobody anywhere could do it better than Barry did in his book.  It is the best.

I totally agree with this,  I have purchased it, and I recommend it.  

However, the person does make a valid point.   One should not have to buy a user's manual to be able to learn how to use a purchased item.    With the release of the premium version, MTH should update the user guide that Susan pointed out.

In my music world where we now deal with hundreds of control applications for stage and FOH mixers, lighting control, etc..as well as software instruments, every time a company updates or releases a new and better version, they send an addendum with it to explain how to use and incorporate the new features.

Now, then, just as Barry's excellent work on his guide, one can also go out and buy detailed manuals that dig much deeper than the summary guides.

Just my $1.50 

Does the other 500 pound gorilla that has a competing app, offer a free instruction manual?

Today I learned that, yes, there is indeed a manual for the iCab app. The iCab 2 User's Guide may be found here At first glance, it appears to be of a level of detail somewhat similar to MTHG's (full) WIU User Guide..

Regardless, the cost of the iCab app alone is more than the cost of the DCS App (Premier version) plus The DCS WiFi Companion eBook.

Still, in my (not so humble ) opinion, there does not exist a manual, free or otherwise, that covers the Legacy iCab App to the extent that the DCS WiFi Companion covers the Premium version of the DCS App.

David,

With the release of the premium version, MTH should update the user guide that Susan pointed out.

I respectfully disagree.

What I've suggested that MTH do is to build-into the DCS App "help screens" for on-the-fly explanation of some of the less intuitive features and functions (such as what appears when one taps the "Import" button on the apps Import/Export screen).

That would provide some basic documentation that's available from within the app. That seems to be the approach most developers of low-priced apps take (we're not talking Photoshop, here), if they even do anything at all.

ogaugeguy posted:

Why has MTH chosen not to make either a User guide/manual or Help Screen feature available for their DCS WiFi premium app? The majority of apps and software programs make available either an online User's guide /manual or Help Screens for their programs, so why hasn't MTH done likewise? I know they publish and offer exclusively a WiFi publication by Barry Broskowitz for an additional cost but 3rd party books are offered by authors for other software programs too, yet those software producers STILL offer their own User's guides/manuals free on their websites or Help Screens, so why won't MTH follow a similar path for their customers?

Is it unreasonable after paying MTH @24.95 for their DCS WiFi Premium App to expect either an online User's guide/manual or Help Section for that premium app? What's your opinion?

part of reply offered by Escaperocks:

"...the person does make a valid point.   One should not have to buy a user's manual to be able to learn how to use a purchased item. ..."

Thank you, Escaperocks, that's exactly my point.

part of reply offered by Barry Broskowitz:

Hi Fellow Members.  Last week Mike Wolf was at one of my local hobby shops and Mike put on an excellent demonstration.  He even used my Android phone.  He is a Mac User and I have this old android phone, that I  was going to use just in my train room.  He talked me out of that idea and told me I should look for a used iPad. I am also a MacUser. (MacBook Pro)

Now an iPad is on my agenda, but I may  go for a new iPad.  Apple just introduced a new iPad about two weeks ago. Starting at $329.00 •  Mike is now on tour, look for him at a hobby shop near you. Sign up for the MTH, Daily Newsletter for his schedule.

This was a great learning day and fun day.  There was about 25 model railroaders at his demo.  He even played a practical joke on myself. Someday, I will have to tell this story to my grand kids.

This is the link to their 36 page MTH DCS Manual • User's Guide. A lot of helpful photos. 

http://mthtrains.com/sites/def...ction/50as13515i.pdf

Meet Mike Wolf, CEO of Mike's Train House • MTH Electric Trains

Gary

Not to denigrate Barry's book, but you shouldn't have to buy a manual for a product you paid for.  There should be some sort of documentation available with the product.

John,

There should be some sort of documentation available with the product.

There is such a manual. At present, ti's theWiFi DCS User's Guide, available here.

Bear in mind that MTH, unlike Microsoft, does not have scads of gnomes who are available on call to write manuals as a product is being developed.  

Barry Broskowitz posted:

John,

There should be some sort of documentation available with the product.

There is such a manual. At present, ti's theWiFi DCS User's Guide, available here.

You've confused me, Barry, in my original post the product I'm referring to is MTH's Premium App, not their DCS WiFi module, and in your May 22nd response to Susan's post to this thread you stated:

 "Susan,

Barry"

So, Barry does page 33 refer to the Standard App or have they now revised it for the Premium App?

If this application was created by an outside house, wouldn't it be logical to expect them to provide the documentation as part of the package? 

One should never apply logic to matters involving program writing or legal matters.

Or, you get what you pay for.

oguageguy,

in my original post the product I'm referring to is MTH's Premium App, not their DCS WiFi module,

The WIU Manual (the full one on the WIU's web page) discusses at a good level of detail, the Standard version of the DCS App.

does page 33 refer to the Standard App or have they now revised it for the Premium App?

No, it refers to the Standard version, as I stated.

Why are you confused?

Barry Broskowitz posted:

oguageguy,

in my original post the product I'm referring to is MTH's Premium App, not their DCS WiFi module,

The WIU Manual (the full one on the WIU's web page) discusses at a good level of detail, the Standard version of the DCS App.

does page 33 refer to the Standard App or have they now revised it for the Premium App?

No, it refers to the Standard version, as I stated.

Why are you confused?

My original post states my concern for MTH not including documentation or Help area as part of their Premium App. While your book is a plethora of information, documentation, and help for the DCS WiFi Apps and is available from MTH, to obtain it requires a separate purchase and cost beyond tthe Premium App.

So, Barry, there is currently no documentation or help area relating to the MTH DCS WiFi Premium App that's either included as a part of that Premium App or it's purchase. Correct?

I have to admit - I was surprised to learn MTH actually sells the book.

I'm totally cool with Barry selling it as a third party - but it is very unseeming that MTH would sell the manuals needed to use their products.

I'm a sound engineer - and we run all our gear with tablets and phones these days - I cannot imagine Behringer (whom makes my mixers) making customers pay for documentation...pretty much unheard of in any endeavor.

Hey Barry - is there some reason you don't use the "Reply With Quote" function in your post replies? - Not using it makes it hard to figure out who you are responding to - and makes your response make less sense. You post a lot - and it would be helpful.

Barry

The only issue with me is that from York I just bought the 3rd edition of Your book with my new WiFi for that purposes alone with the picture on it and then I see the download comes out special edition for WiFi ????? That's two of your books and here is another one. 

Larry

Larry,

I just bought the 3rd edition of Your book with my new WiFi for that purposes alone with the picture on it and then I see the download comes out special edition for WiFi ?

The first book's 3rd Edition was first published In October of 2013 to coincide with the release of the Standard version the DCS App, The 3rd edition was an update to the 2nd edition and added, among other things, an addendum for the Standard version of the DCS App. The primary purpose of the 3rd edition of The DCS Companion remained, and still remains, using DCS with the DCS Remote. The book will never go beyond the Standard version of the DCS App. The picture of the app on the book's front cover shows that the DCS App was included in the new edition, however, the main focus of the book had not changed. 

The Premium DCS App was released a few weeks ago, The new book, The DCS WiFi Companion is not a "special edition" in any way. Rather, it's intended to provide the same function as the previous book,except from the viewpoint of the, now complete, Premium version of the DCS App. It does not address use of the DCS Remote at all. It shares some of the basic background stuff regarding DCS in order to be a complete, stand-alone book. The new title identifies the new focus of the book: The DCS WiFi Companion. The WiFi is even in orange to make it stand out.

Each book serves a different purpose. If I had combined the two books, the result would have been more than 350 pages, harder to use, and quite expensive as a print book. It would have been constantly jumping back and forth between using the remote and using the app to accomplish the same things. Even more difficult would have been the progression of the information itself, since the context of using the two devices is very different.

The first book is intended for those who use, or plan to use,DCS primarily with the DCS Remote. The section regarding the Standard version of the DCS App acts as an introduction to DCS WiFi using the DCS App.

The second book is targeted for who will use the WiFi capabilities of a smart phone or tablet to operate DCS with the full, Premium version of the DCS App. MTH is moving away from the dedicated remote aspect of DCS, as they have stated publicly at York.

If you bought the 3rd edition of The DCS Companion to use only the Standard version of the app, you don't need to purchase the new book. If you plan to use DCS with the DCS App instead of the DCS Remote, the new book is what you should consider purchasing.

That's two of your books and here is another one. 

No, there are only two books, period.

The first book, The DCS Companion, has gone though 3 editions over 8 years. Since the second edition the book has been available as both an eBook and a printed book. The eBook and the print book have identical content. When any of the 3 editions were updated in-place, the eBook version was a free download for previous purchasers of that edition.

The second book, The DCS WiFi Companion, was released last week as an eBook. It will be re=released, hopefully next week, as a slightly updated book. The update to the eBook will be available free to those who previously purchased the eBook. Further, the plan is to release, at the same time, a print version of the book, with identical content to the revised eBook.

I had some hard choices to make as regards how to write a book about the Premium version of the DCS App. I chose to make it a stand-alone book rather than a bloated all-in-one. I'm looking to the future of DCS operation. I think the first book does a good job describing what's come before.

You may have a different opinion, to which you're certainly entitled.

trainroomgary posted:

Hi Fellow Members.  Last week Mike Wolf was at one of my local hobby shops and Mike put on an excellent demonstration.  He even used my Android phone.  He is a Mac User and I have this old android phone, that I  was going to use just in my train room.  He talked me out of that idea and told me I should look for a used iPad. I am also a MacUser. (MacBook Pro)

Now an iPad is on my agenda, but I may  go for a new iPad.  Apple just introduced a new iPad about two weeks ago. Starting at $329.00 •  Mike is now on tour, look for him at a hobby shop near you. Sign up for the MTH, Daily Newsletter for his schedule.

This was a great learning day and fun day.  There was about 25 model railroaders at his demo.  He even played a practical joke on myself. Someday, I will have to tell this story to my grand kids.

This is the link to their 36 page MTH DCS Manual • User's Guide. A lot of helpful photos. 

http://mthtrains.com/sites/def...ction/50as13515i.pdf

Meet Mike Wolf, CEO of Mike's Train House • MTH Electric Trains

Gary

 

Well that's one of his many character flaws...insisting on using Apple products when Android based clearly has the market share...like 80%+  

So I've been real quite not bashing the CrAap but did you ask "where's the soft keys??"

Roving Sign,

but it is very unseeming that MTH would sell the manuals needed to use their products.

First, why is it "unseemly" at all? The same computer store that sells PCs, also sells additional 3rd party books that go well beyond the documentation that the PC manufacturer provides. An example would be "Windows (or other topics) for Dummies". At least I don't call anyone a dummy!

Second, MTH's full WIU manual covers all of the functions of the Standard version of the DCS App. Regarding the Premium app, be aware that it took a while for the Standard app to be documented by MTH and the Premium app has figuratively an order of magnitude more functionality.

Regardless, whatever documentation is developed for the DCS Premium App (my personal choice would be built-in help screens rather than a manual, as I've stated a few times previously), The DCS WiFi Companion is not simply a user guide. It is much more than that. It is a complete tutorial and reference manual that, in addition to telling what each button means, actually teaches the reader what is DCS, and explains in context how to do things.

OK, Thanks for taking the time to explain it.

Larry

Larry,

Thanks for taking the time to explain it.

You're welcome!

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Roving Sign,

but it is very unseeming that MTH would sell the manuals needed to use their products.

First, why is it "unseemly" at all? The same computer store that sells PCs, also sells additional 3rd party books that go well beyond the documentation that the PC manufacturer provides. An example would be "Windows (or other topics) for Dummies". At least I don't call anyone a dummy!

Second, MTH's full WIU manual covers all of the functions of the Standard version of the DCS App. Regarding the Premium app, be aware that it took a while for the Standard app to be documented by MTH and the Premium app has figuratively an order of magnitude more functionality.

Regardless, whatever documentation is developed for the DCS Premium App (my personal choice would be built-in help screens rather than a manual, as I've stated a few times previously), The DCS WiFi Companion is not simply a user guide. It is much more than that. It is a complete tutorial and reference manual that, in addition to telling what each button means, actually teaches the reader what is DCS, and explains in context how to do things.

Fair enough Barry - but why the heck do you not use the "Reply with Quote" function!!!

ogaugeguy posted:

Why has MTH chosen not to make either a User guide/manual or Help Screen feature available for their DCS WiFi premium app? The majority of apps and software programs make available either an online User's guide /manual or Help Screens for their programs, so why hasn't MTH done likewise? I know they publish and offer exclusively a WiFi publication by Barry Broskowitz for an additional cost but 3rd party books are offered by authors for other software programs too, yet those software producers STILL offer their own User's guides/manuals free on their websites or Help Screens, so why won't MTH follow a similar path for their customers?

Is it unreasonable after paying MTH @24.95 for their DCS WiFi Premium App to expect either an online User's guide/manual or Help Section for that premium app? What's your opinion?

Im chalking it up to MTHs hamhanded approach to marketing the book - they have it on the homepage of their website - a sweet deal for Barry for sure - but creates the impression that original poster had - that there is no manual for the app - Following the lead from the MTH homepage:

While the DCS WiFi Companion is certain to be among the best purchases that a DCS operator can make, built-in support for the app is being updated and should be available in early June 2017. Current app support is accessed by going to the More link at the bottom of the app screen and selecting User Manuals. From there, select the Wi-Fi DCS Manual. As that manual is updated, additional content, relative to the M.T.H. Premium App will be included, so check back if you don't find the information you're searching for.

First - You have to have the latest version of the app installed - or the link to the manuals won't be there. Must be recent update because I've only had the App on that tablet for a month or so.

Not sure why they just don't include a good old fashioned hypertext link - like this - to the manual - so you can view it on the computer - besides being "manuals" - these are also - in effect - marketing materials - not sure why they have them so hidden.

Otherwise support manuals are available a few clicks away by navigating "Service>Instruction Manuals" and then hopefully you have the right combo of search terms - probably best to use the product model number here - since entering "wi-fi dcs" yielded "no results"

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Roving Sign,

but it is very unseeming that MTH would sell the manuals needed to use their products.

First, why is it "unseemly" at all? The same computer store that sells PCs, also sells additional 3rd party books that go well beyond the documentation that the PC manufacturer provides. An example would be "Windows (or other topics) for Dummies". At least I don't call anyone a dummy!

Second, MTH's full WIU manual covers all of the functions of the Standard version of the DCS App. Regarding the Premium app, be aware that it took a while for the Standard app to be documented by MTH and the Premium app has figuratively an order of magnitude more functionality.

Regardless, whatever documentation is developed for the DCS Premium App (my personal choice would be built-in help screens rather than a manual, as I've stated a few times previously), The DCS WiFi Companion is not simply a user guide. It is much more than that. It is a complete tutorial and reference manual that, in addition to telling what each button means, actually teaches the reader what is DCS, and explains in context how to do things.

Barry, no poster on this thread has attacked the value of your book or the need for it but rather quite the opposite. Some have simply taken note, like myself, that MTH had the DCS WiFi Premium App created but failed to have the software engineers they used to create it also include as part of that Premium App either documentation, a help area or as you yourself suggested, "Help Screens," explaining it's many features and their uses. While you have created a source of documentation and help for the Premium App with your excellent book, unless you're an employee of MTH, it's you that has created such documentation, and NOT MTH, and I personally feel that any company who either creates or has created for them a software product has an obligation to include as part of that product, documentation and help regarding its use!

Btw, as for you commenting,

"...First, why is it "unseemly" at all? The same computer store that sells PCs, also sells additional 3rd party books that go well beyond the documentation that the PC manufacturer provides. An example would be "Windows (or other topics) for Dummies". At least I don't call anyone a dummy! ...,"

 that's a flawed analogy. Flawed because you haven't compared similar situations. While those computer stores you reference do sell computers and software programs and also sell help books for those products those stores DID NOT manufacture or have produced for them the computers and software programs they sell whereas MTH DID have have the Premium App produced!

ogaugeguy,

unless you're an employee of MTH

No, I am not, never have been and most likely never will be an employee of MTH. Rather, I'm a business partner.

I personally feel that any company who either creates or has created for them a software product has an obligation to include as part of that product, documentation and help regarding its use!

While I don't necessarily disagree with your statement, I don't really have a dog in this fight.

...that's a flawed analogy. Flawed because you haven't compared similar situations. While those computer stores you reference do sell computers and software programs and also sell help books for those products those stores DID NOT manufacture or have produced for them the computers and software programs

Flawed analogy? I think not.

Have you been to an Apple Store recently? There are lots of 3rd party products, including books, that support Apple products.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

ogaugeguy,

unless you're an employee of MTH

No, I am not, never have been and most likely never will be an employee of MTH. Rather, I'm a business partner.

I personally feel that any company who either creates or has created for them a software product has an obligation to include as part of that product, documentation and help regarding its use!

While I don't necessarily disagree with your statement, I don't really have a dog in this fight.

...that's a flawed analogy. Flawed because you haven't compared similar situations. While those computer stores you reference do sell computers and software programs and also sell help books for those products those stores DID NOT manufacture or have produced for them the computers and software programs

Flawed analogy? I think not.

Have you been to an Apple Store recently? There are lots of 3rd party products, including books, that support Apple products.

Its "Take Action > Reply with quote" - bottom right of every post.

Its "Take Action > Reply with quote" - bottom right of every post.

I don't want the whole post. I just respond to statements, not the post.

Would you like an online User's guide/manual or Help screen feature for MTH's DCS WIFI Premium App?  YES - "I would like to see "Demonstration Videos" on the MTH You Tube Channel.  How to set-up and use the MTH DCS WiFi Advanced APP

We all have different learning styles, I like show and tell videos, not reading shop manuals & guides. My best example is Auto Part Stores.  When I purchase an automotive part for my every day driver or my classic car.  They hand me a work sheet for the part and a list of free videos that are related to the installation.

You buy the Advanced APP, there is no current instruction videos or manual. MTH has turned over part of their business to the Google Play Store and the Apple APP • iTunes Store.  

The Apple Store has a 90 day refund policy.  If you want they will give you a full refund.

****How you get a refund for iTunes or App Store purchases and in-app purchases isn't obvious, but it is possible!

If you experience a problem with music, movies, TV shows, books, or apps you purchase from iTunes or the App Store, you can request a refund directly from Apple. You'll need to have a valid reason for the request—it's not meant to be a way to get free trials or short-term use— but if you buy something by accident, buy the wrong thing, or get the wrong thing, or don't get anything, it's how you get your money back.

Note: You can only report problems on items you purchased within the last 90 days.  Just tell Apple Store,  that the manufacture does not  supply current instructions with their APP 

• How to get a refund using your iPhone or iPad
• How to get a refund using apple.com on the web
• How to get a refund using iTunes on Mac or WindowsI have no plans to ask for a refund at this time, but the option is available.

*** Source: Apple Store Associate & Mastering iTunes Forum / Feb. 18, 2017

Gary

Barry Broskowitz posted:

I don't want the whole post. I just respond to statements, not the post.

Click in the quote box - and delete the unwanted text - and leave only the relevant part of the post. Like that ^^^

If you want to address multiple points in a post - before you start - copy the whole quote to your clipboard. (CTRL+A then CTRL+C) - and paste and edit as you go. Or just make multiple replies editing the quoted part to reflect your reply.

Like this VVV

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Its "Take Action > Reply with quote" - bottom right of every post.

 The nice part is - if you use the "Reply with Quote" feature - the person who you are replying to will get an email notification - also very helpful.

And it makes it easier for the rest of us to follow the thread.

ogaugeguy posted:

 I personally feel that any company who either creates or has created for them a software product has an obligation to include as part of that product, documentation and help regarding its use!

I agree - but MTH does have the literature/manuals available on their website - and via the app - its not obvious - and sort of presented half-assed - but its there. I looked it over - it seems complete enough - its what I would expect.

Barry's book is a bit more tutorial - take the COMPANION part to heart. But the way it's presented on the website complete with an MTH product number - it looks like MTH is making people buy the book until they get their act together with the documentation.

http://mthtrains.com/store/7073 - this page for example.

If it were me working that website - I'd make a more prominent link to the in-house manuals/documentation - with a link to Barrys book - explaining this is a third party reference that we are offering.

MTH - change the "SERVICE" navigation point to "SUPPORT" - which is more universally used for electronic and software products - SERVICE implies "repairs"

SERVICE is sub-category of SUPPORT

Maybe MTH should raise the price of the app to cover the cost of the Companion book and just include it with the app purchase? Separate purchases eliminated, problem solved! As others have said the Companion book is much better than the MTH manuals anyway and this one will probably be no different. I thought the same thing about the MTH DCS system and the DCS Companion, just include the DCS Companion with the DCS system.

Maybe MTH should raise the price of the app to cover the cost of the Companion book and just include it with the app purchase?

I'd certainly vote for selling a book with every app purchase!  

Unfortunately, I see at least 3 negatives to doing so:

• This forces those who believe that they don't need the book (even though you and I know that's silly!) to purchase, and pay for, the book.
• This forces those who prefer a printed book to pay for the eBook.
• This causes an increased price for the app. (A marketing no-no.)

Just thinking it might end some complaints over having to buy an extra book? I do see your points here though, but isn't the Lionel iCab app like $50 or so? Just a thought, and I really do prefer the hard copy myself (which I will be getting as soon as it's ready). Thought you might like the idea too. 

I guess I would agree that these things should come with a manual, but even so, I don't recall ever being able to get the full use of a computer program without the purchase of at least one 3rd party book and sometimes more than one. That would apply to programming languages, databases, spreadsheets, etc. Maybe word processing programs could be the exception, I don't recall ever having a 3rd party book for any of those, but I don't do a lot with them either so I can usually fumble my way through those.