From what I understand the wobble was caused by the wheel holes being drilled slightly off center. They look good to me but who knows and Lionel doesnt say anything, they are to interested in what rolls out the door today.
From what I understand the wobble was caused by the wheel holes being drilled slightly off center. They look good to me but who knows and Lionel doesnt say anything, they are to interested in what rolls out the door today.
As I posted earlier, my 8206 does not wobble. I believe another poster also wrote that his does not wobble.
On mine I replaced the original thick traction tire with a MTH one. Big difference.
Rich D posted:From what I understand the wobble was caused by the wheel holes being drilled slightly off center. They look good to me but who knows and Lionel doesnt say anything, they are to interested in what rolls out the door today.
Guys,
Putting my 2 8206 engine complete with body , trucks eunits smoke and wobble up for for sale at a reasonable price. Want to sell them as a set no tenders. They both run extremely well on body is missing the cow catcher steps. Parts alone will be worth more than what I am selling them for.
The conclusion UPDATE ON MY 8206 HUDSON.
well for days i mulled over everyone's suggestions and the drawing posted by Rob. My curiosity got the better of me and I dove in and tore down my locomotive, here is what I did, and discovered. After I removed the front drivers and axle, I found one of the driver's mounting hole is drilled off center, the axle is straight. So there is my wobble. The intermediate gear is 2035-143 and is metal, but a soft, low quality, metal at that. There was already a washer #R-38 under the intermediate gear! How that got there on a brand new engine I don't know, perhaps my 70 's Christmas present I thought was a brand new locomotive may not have been? regardless, it stills holds the same sentimentalism as it always had. for it was with the sweat and blood from my father's scared hands due to his job that, bought this locomotive and then gave it to me as a gift under the tree, that alone means so much!
The front drivers were out of sink with the other drivers, I suspect at some time either the intermediate gear or the drivers jumped a tooth or more, which caused that.
Out of curiosity, I removed the washer and re-installed the intermediate gear onto the shouldered gear stud #2035-135 and the gear seated well and did not wobble one little bit! This stunned me! Upon close examination, I could see where the intermediate gear now installed with out the washer does not fully engage the teeth of the driver it powers but only touches a 1/4 of the tooth faces on the driver. I suspect this may be the reason for the washer behind the gear, but with the washer, the gear does not contact enough of the stud to properly seat and spin, and thus wobbles. However, it became apparent to me that had the shouldered gear stud been made 1/8 an inch longer, the gear would have plenty of contact with the gear stud and thus not wobble and would also fully mesh with the teeth on the driver, and the washer would not be needed. the washer is a poor band aide for what is a design flaw in the gear stud, and replacing the gear stud with an improved version would have been a better and superior modification, engineering wise. That's my humble two cents. Any how, I reassembled the motor with the intermediate gear installed with out the washer behind it, the motor ran smooth and reliably, and no binding and no hang ups like I had before. I also ran the motor with no intermediate gear and the motor runs smooth and trouble free as well. So if the intermediate gear ever fails, I will simply remove it and the rear drivers, with the traction tire, will do the pulling, just as always. When the traction tire fails I will replace it with the MTH traction tire, as was suggested. For now, I 'm happy. and because this locomotive holds such a special spot in my heart, It feels great to have restored it to working condition, and it couldn't have happened with out all of you! I learned a great deal from this. The exploded drawing contributed to this topic was a perfect match to the motor and items on my motor! Every part I held in my hands looked like and was in the same spot as indicated in that exploded drawing. Squeezing the wheels tighter onto their axles took up the 'play' the drivers had, the C-clamp suggested method worked slick for that! I want to thank all who contributed ideas, drawings, and schematics, and who checked their 8206 engines for comparison to mine and reported back their findings, ....all that each of you did was both extremely helpful and encouraging! Thank you to all, I am very grateful! Now my grand kids can enjoy this locomotive and see it in operation, and that feels great also!
Perhaps this topic and our adventure, will help others in search of repair tips or the cause of their Hudson's wheel issues..... i hope it will, I hope they post that it has, as it would be great to know if it does.
ADCX Rob posted:Here is the service manual page(click to open large) so you can more readily ID the problem part(s):
3 time modeler says: This exploded drawing is spot on to what I see on my 8206 Hudson made by fundimensions, ! thank you Rob for posting this!
3 time modeler posted:The conclusion UPDATE ON MY 8206 HUDSON.
well for days i mulled over everyone's suggestions and the drawing posted by Rob. My curiosity got the better of me and I dove in and tore down my locomotive, here is what I did, and discovered. After I removed the front drivers and axle, I found one of the driver's mounting hole is drilled off center, the axle is straight. So there is my wobble. The intermediate gear is 2035-143 and is metal, but a soft, low quality, metal at that. There was already a washer #R-38 under the intermediate gear! How that got there on a brand new engine I don't know, perhaps my 70 's Christmas present I thought was a brand new locomotive may not have been? regardless, it stills holds the same sentimentalism as it always had. for it was with the sweat and blood from my father's scared hands due to his job that, bought this locomotive and then gave it to me as a gift under the tree, that alone means so much!
The front drivers were out of sink with the other drivers, I suspect at some time either the intermediate gear or the drivers jumped a tooth or more, which caused that.
Out of curiosity, I removed the washer and re-installed the intermediate gear onto the shouldered gear stud #2035-135 and the gear seated well and did not wobble one little bit! This stunned me! Upon close examination, I could see where the intermediate gear now installed with out the washer does not fully engage the teeth of the driver it powers but only touches a 1/4 of the tooth faces on the driver. I suspect this may be the reason for the washer behind the gear, but with the washer, the gear does not contact enough of the stud to properly seat and spin, and thus wobbles. However, it became apparent to me that had the shouldered gear stud been made 1/8 an inch longer, the gear would have plenty of contact with the gear stud and thus not wobble and would also fully mesh with the teeth on the driver, and the washer would not be needed. the washer is a poor band aide for what is a design flaw in the gear stud, and replacing the gear stud with an improved version would have been a better and superior modification, engineering wise. That's my humble two cents. Any how, I reassembled the motor with the intermediate gear installed with out the washer behind it, the motor ran smooth and reliably, and no binding and no hang ups like I had before. I also ran the motor with no intermediate gear and the motor runs smooth and trouble free as well. So if the intermediate gear ever fails, I will simply remove it and the rear drivers, with the traction tire, will do the pulling, just as always. When the traction tire fails I will replace it with the MTH traction tire, as was suggested. For now, I 'm happy. and because this locomotive holds such a special spot in my heart, It feels great to have restored it to working condition, and it couldn't have happened with out all of you! I learned a great deal from this. The exploded drawing contributed to this topic was a perfect match to the motor and items on my motor! Every part I held in my hands looked like and was in the same spot as indicated in that exploded drawing. Squeezing the wheels tighter onto their axles took up the 'play' the drivers had, the C-clamp suggested method worked slick for that! I want to thank all who contributed ideas, drawings, and schematics, and who checked their 8206 engines for comparison to mine and reported back their findings, ....all that each of you did was both extremely helpful and encouraging! Thank you to all, I am very grateful! Now my grand kids can enjoy this locomotive and see it in operation, and that feels great also!
Perhaps this topic and our adventure, will help others in search of repair tips or the cause of their Hudson's wheel issues..... i hope it will, I hope they post that it has, as it would be great to know if it does.
Just a word of caution, I have 4 of those engines and everyone has the washer behind the intermediate gear.
3 time modeler posted:it became apparent to me that had the shouldered gear stud been made 1/8 an inch longer, the gear would have plenty of contact with the gear stud and thus not wobble and would also fully mesh with the teeth on the driver, and the washer would not be needed. the washer is a poor band aide for what is a design flaw in the gear stud, and replacing the gear stud with an improved version would have been a better and superior modification, engineering wise. That's my humble two cents. Any how, I reassembled the motor with the intermediate gear installed with out the washer behind it, the motor ran smooth and reliably, and no binding and no hang ups like I had before
Excellent analysis! I'm curious though, why didn't you replace the problematic gear stud? A true Postwar replacement stud might be a bit longer. Or you could even make a new one out of drill rod. A new stud plus a harder Postwar gear would make this run even better. Also, I believe you could use driving wheels for the Postwar 675 to replace the one(s) drilled off-center.
Anyhow, glad you found the problem. Great info, thanks for sharing!
Excellent analysis! I'm curious though, why didn't you replace the problematic gear stud? A true Postwar replacement stud might be a bit longer. Or you could even make a new one out of drill rod. A new stud plus a harder Postwar gear would make this run even better. Also, I believe you could use driving wheels for the Postwar 675 to replace the one(s) drilled off-center.
How would you replace the stud?
Generally they are staked to the aluminum frame, with the staked end on the inside of the motor.
The few times I've looked at re-staking or replacing a gear stud, it was impossible to do without separating the two halves of the motor assembly.
that's good news. you had a problem, asked advice, and then got your hands dirty! Next time you'll be more confident when a problem comes up.
Good for you! I love a happy ending. Enjoy the loco!
I wanted to float this helpful thread back to the surface, to give credit where it is due, and to hopefully add something to the 8206 discussion.
I recently did a few things to my 8206 which significantly improved its operation. So here is what I found and what I did:
1) My engine has the wobble, and it was very pronounced. As suggested, I replaced the oversized old Lionel traction tire with an MTH 29mm tire. This helped quite a bit.
2) The hole in the armature bearing plate (on the gear side) was bored oversize: I measured it at 0.132", for a eighth-inch shaft. Could it be that some of these engines really did go out the door with off-center wheels and, in order to prevent the gear train from locking up, MPC added more clearance here as compensation? At any rate, on my engine, all the oversized bore did was make noise, as the armature shaft rattled around. Worse, I could actually see that the shaft was beginning to get a low spot in it. I installed an armature plate with a smaller bore. The gears still do not bind, and the loco is much, much quieter!
3) As others mentioned, the intermediate gear was barely meshing with the geared wheels, and when I turned the wheels by hand, it would rock side to side on its pin. It looked to me like the wheels could be pressed farther onto the axles, which I hoped would improve the gear mesh, and also trap the idler gear between the frame and the flange of the front driver so it could not move around so much. In fact the wheel gauge was quite wide; moreover, they were not perpendicular to the axles: measuring from the point where the flange meets the wheel tread, I got anything from 1.275" to 1.290". (How was this engine even running on 1 1/4" gauge track? I guess the rounded rail profile covers a multitude of sins!) Using a vise with some scotch tape on the jaws, to keep from marring the painted wheels, I squared up the drivers and pressed them in to 1.270", plus or minus a couple thousandths. Any narrower, and the flanges would have been touching the high spots where the frame is staked together. This operation improved things immensely: the idler gear did not move around so much anymore; the wobble decreased to almost nil; the engine was quieter still, and it no longer hesitated going around certain curves, where my track must be gauged ever-so-slightly narrow.
4) The tread of the drive wheels was painted. Whose idea was this? The front and rear trucks provided the only return path for the electrical current--and not a very good one, judging by all the sparking I was getting during operation. I stuck some 400 grit sandpaper to a nice flat board with spray adhesive, removed the shell from the loco, attached jumper wires, turned up the power, and held the spinning wheels against the sandpaper. Five minutes later, I had electrical continuity through the drive wheels and no more sparks.
I hope someone finds this post helpful in tuning their own 8206. I certainly benefited from those who posted here before!
Hey fellas, I was just looking through my ( Greenberg's Guide to Lionel Fundimensions Trains) . It states in this book; Quote ( Many of these locos were assembled with off-center drive wheels which cause the locos to wobble side to side as they run.) So sir your problem may have been a factory defect, and as a kid in the 70's being excited with such a wonderful gift from Santa/ good old Dad and Mom, you just didn't notice it much back then. I begged and begged for Lionel trains as a kid , never got one. I received a TYCO shifter and tender set, that good ole Dad mounted on a 4/8 and hung it on the wall it would fold up and down; in my bed room. I think the next year I received a TYCO race car set and it was put in the middle of the table. Lots of hours running trains and racing cars. I now have Lionel trains, no place to run them, I don't have any race car sets, but still am racing cars, with my son.
Just spotted this thread.
I bought an 8206 several years ago at a train show for $25 always ran good and smoked up a storm.
I was running it yesterday and the wheels seized up I took the shell off and saw that the gear shown in the video was wobbling and had jammed, also some sort of repair had been attempted, I got it freed up but I am afraid it will happen again so I want to get it repaired. I saw that there were people who said they could do the repair in this thread.
Thanks
Dave
