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Howdy, well it had to come and it is here and working. What am I talking about it is command control for the railroad. I have installed Wi-Fi for the MTH DCS system, Lionel Legacy, and NCE DCC using JMRI. I am not using any wireless controls because they are all using the same frequency except Lionel Legacy. MTH and NCE have issues around interference of their rf signals and with NCE you cannot run two wire-less systems in the same vicinity it will only tolerate one signal, I have had long discussions with NCE about this and have done a lot of trouble shooting of the problem, so that is how it is going to be.

I have installed a new control panel (fig 1) and it is sloping and hinged so you can access items under the control panel.

Fig 1

Fig 1

Above the control panel are switches to control the layout power and other special operations. All the switch control is done with NCE controls, Tortoise control of the O-Scale and the N, ON30, HO are controlled using the switches that go with the Bachmann track. I have a MTH AIU mounted but have to make up a cable to connect it to the TIU. The NCE controls get around a problem with the AIU relay hold-time in some instances it is too long. I also installed a wire raceway to organize the wires.

 

To the left of the control panel (fig 2) is the power distribution center, I used computer distribution power controls and it works great and also gives me isolation and filtering.  It also has all the DCC items there. To the left of the DCS Commander are the NCE Pro-base and a 5-amp booster. Below it is a 10-amp booster for the O-scale and I will install a second one for the HO controls.

 

Figure 2

Fig 2

 

 

As you can see the MTH DCS system is mounted to the right and was done too make it will easier to do the program updates and the MTH DCS is Rev L. On the top rail is the DCS Wi-Fi. The AIU is mounted below that.

 

Between the MTH DCS and Lionel Legacy is an iPad (fig 3) for control of the two systems and JMRI. I am using the MTH standard app as the enhanced is not out yet. Lionel Legacy app LCS and iCab. I found a use for my old smart phones can be used for command control on all systems.  The iPhone 4 will run the Lionel Legacy but not the MTH as that system was designed for the newer iPhone.

 

Figure 3

Two the right is the Lionel Legacy and the Lionel Wi-Fi on the top rail and the interface module Ser2 used to connect MTH TIU to Lionel Legacy base.

What did I find,

  1. The MTH DCS Wi-Fi was easy to set up and the learning curve was not that great, took me about one or two operation to get the feel of the system but remember the more you use it the better you get.
  2. The Lionel Wi-Fi was a bit more complicated. When you buy the parts to make it all work you have to buy each module, power supply, connecting cables for Legacy Base and to MTH DCS, Modules, none of the modules come with cables or power supply. I found this interesting strategy for Lionel to do. I believe that it is because there are so many variables this was the most economical way and was a good idea.
  3. MTH Wi-Fi has the best range Lionel Legacy is a bit short on that one.
  4. I can monitor the complete settings of the Lionel Legacy command base from my desk top computer which is great and it is a free download from Lionel (LSU Upgrade) MTH does not have that option yet.
  5. JMRI, will be using a Raspberry small computer and output a Wi-Fi signal to be used by their app. (in progress) 

Over all the it was an eye opening experience and it was well worth the effort.  My two granddaughters McKenzie (6) & Madison (4) really took to the new control system and that is the first place they want to go and do. McKenzie loves to operate the Lionel crane and is really getting good at it and quickly picked up the use of the Lionel Legacy handheld and MTH DCS they do not shy away from them and the Wi-Fi really was a clincher.

I had two other young ladies come over and they went bonkers with the trains and the use of the WiFi. 

 

Attachments

Images (3)
  • Fig 1: FIG 1
  • Figure 2: FIG 2
  • Figure 3: FIG 3
Last edited by Dansgnrr
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Dan,

I am not using any wireless controls because they are all using the same frequency except Lionel Legacy. MTH and NCE have issues around interference of their rf signals

Could you please explain this further? Since you're using the MTH and Lionel WiFi systems, I assume that you're referring to the DCS Remote and Cab-2 controller. There's no interference between these two systems, since MTH uses 900 MHz and Lionel uses 2.4 GHz.

Is it the NCE system that's causing problems? If the NCE is tethered to it's controller, it shouldn't be causing any interference issues. Why can't you use the DCS and Legacy handheld remotes wirelessly?

The NCE controls get around a problem with the AIU relay hold-time in some instances it is too long.

What is the problem to which you're referring?

Berry, 

The NCE is also wireless but I have it tethered as the NCE is on the same frequency as MTH and the two interfer with each other. I ran into that in San Diego at the 3-Railers in the museum. Even if you have two NCE systems in the vicinity of each other they will also interfere with each other.  I used my test setup I developed while in service and it works pretty good finding EMI & IMI.  I also found the one of the clubs had their antenna upside down and it was sending the RF signal under the door of the 3-rail gallery.  I also questioned why the other NCE systems were not interfered with and the others were using tethers. 

Where I have encountered this problem I recommend that they contact NCE and have them change the frequency of their signal and that corrects the problem. 

I went to another train gallery and they had multiple control systems and the MTH was getting interfered with and I asked them to turn off the NCE system and the problem went away. I went back there again and all was fine till the problem showed up it was someone not using the new frequency for the NCE system.

I was the one who designed and wired the San Diego 3-Railers with Jim Burke we were the only two doing the wiring. Everyone questioned why I did things the way I did and when it all worked they said "I guess you are right all along" 

I enjoy your books and they are a good reference. If you have any other questions please feel free to ask. 

 

Dan

First, it's Barry.

If you have any other questions please feel free to ask. 

It would be good if you answered my original questions:

If the NCE is tethered to it's controller, it shouldn't be causing any interference issues. Why can't you use the DCS and Legacy handheld remotes wirelessly?

and my other question regarding your statement:

"The NCE controls get around a problem with the AIU relay hold-time in some instances it is too long."

What is the problem to which you're referring?

Barry,

Sorry about the name. 

It is my choice to tether the controls. The only one not tethered is the Lionel Legacy

 NCE is not an issue now and I could use the MTH or Lionel remotes and my granddaughters like that. But when I do train shows I tether the TIU and NCE. 

The relays in the AIU have a pull time and hold time, by that I mean, "pull time" time it takes the relay to pull in and "hold time" time it takes to release, (less out side circuitry)  these two are manufacture spec and there is no getting around them. I have dealt with this problem before and had to certify the Pull & Hold times.  Now saying that, I know the relays in the AIU are program controlled. I hate to say how many Atlas switch controls I burned out till I figured out what was happening. Now when I tested the AIU on the bench the output stayed a little to long and smoked the Atlas switch control. When I asked Atlas how much current and what resistance I should see and they had no answer. I even put a diode in series with the power to half wave it (old electrician trick to keep relays from chattering when power supplied) Still did not correct the problem. Now I understand the program change but I have not tested it since my initial check back then.  I talked with Jason about the problem and no one could or would give me a straight answer (at that time) proprietary system.  Jason was my go to man when I needed answers when I first dove into the problem. 

I hope I did not forget any thing you asked for me to answer. If I did let me know. 

Dan,

Are you stating that that the couple of seconds during which the AIU activates an SW port is long enough to burn out an Atlas switch motor? I've heard any number of comments about SW AIU ports, however, I've never heard about anything like this.

I find this very difficult to believe unless you're puttinga lot more voltage than is necessary into the Atlas motor. How much voltage are you using?

Regardless, what was your solution?

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Dan,

Are you stating that that the couple of seconds during which the AIU activates an SW port is long enough to burn out an Atlas switch motor? I've heard any number of comments about SW AIU ports, however, I've never heard about anything like this.

I find this very difficult to believe unless you're puttinga lot more voltage than is necessary into the Atlas motor. How much voltage are you using?

Regardless, what was your solution?

Barry

Yes I am. We had about 10 switches that burned up and when triggered by Lionel ASC  switch control they worked fine, after replaced. No the voltage was what was recommended by Atlas. Then operated the switch with the AIU and puff. 

I did not believe it at first either and it took me a long time to understand what was happening, then I remembered something I saw in my field engineer days two mechanical operations were out of sync as one would stay on longer then the other. 

Voltage was about 12VAC.

Barry, 

When I left they were going update the TIU with a new program and I believe that it is now working.  I believe that the TIU controls the operation of the AIU is that not right? The person working on it did tell me they had a couple of switch motors go and were getting new ones from Atlas. That is where it was left. I do not know anything else. 

It sure has been nice chatting with you I really like what you have done with the books on DCS., THANKS

Dan,

I've been in touch with MTH this morning. They haven't ever heard of any issues with DCS regarding the AIU burning up Atlas switch motors since the event of DCS 4.0, some 9 years ago.

Since it's been 13 years since your last incident and DCS has progressed from DCS 2.21 to DCS 5.0, I suggest that it may be time to revisit the issue.

Last edited by Barry Broskowitz
Barry Broskowitz posted:

Dan,

I've been in touch with MTH this morning. They haven' ever heard of any issues with DCS regarding the AIU burning up Atlas switch motors since the event of DCS 4.0, some 9 years ago.

Since it's been 13 years since your last incident and DCS has progressed from DCS 2.21 to DCS 5.0, I suggest that it may be time to revisit the issue.

Barry, 

Thanks, I knew had been a while and you confirmed my belief that the program change made the difference. I am going to revisit the issue and confirm to myself. I have pretty good notes on the issue all I need to do is find them and that may be hard. 

I thank you for our conversation and it has been a pleasure. 

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