O48 vs. O36 -- worth it?

I really think you could fit at least 048 min in that amount of space. It’ll make your layout more future proof, especially if your interests change in the future. Also, I would bet that a fair number of diesels with listed 054 min radius would run OK on 048. Just for reference, here’s my 9’ x 12’ layout with 2 mainlines and 048 min radius.

You are not missing anything.  Tighter curves give you more options, at the expense of realism, reliability, and the ability to run larger equipment.  If you already have 031 equipment and want a layout with lots of twists and turns, that's completely fine.  Inclines add a wrinkle to this but you didn't mention any.

If I was in your shoes I would consider a mix of curves.  I would like that big sweeping mainline.  Real railroads work this way, right?  Six-axle power (054) on mainlines switches out to four-axle power on branch lines (036), with little switchers to do the yard work (031).

I am not necessarily a particular fan of your layout as proposed.  Even replacing some of your straight sections with very gentle meandering curves would add interest and realism.  In my humble opinion, your plan resembles the Indianapolis Motor Speedway plan more than anything that is actually following the contours of nature.

If it were me I'd go O72 on your outside loop and make everything else 036.  Just like the real thing, mainline engines often can't fit on the smaller radius curves of branch lines.

-Greg

You could use O54 curves in the 4 corners and leave the O36 revers loops.  This will allow you to run the larger diesels.  You didn't say what track system you are going to use.

Jan

@JackO posted:

All of my equipment currently works on O31 min. Looking at the Lionel catalogs, for diesels, they jump from O31 min to O54 min, so O48 doesn't get me new equipment -- just slightly better appearance on the curves.

I think I'm over-thinking it. O36 seems to give me a lot more options. Or am I missing something?

Jack out of curiosity, what type of track are you contemplating?  Tubular, FasTrack or something else.  Do you already have some of this style already, which you plan to add to?

I wouldn't build ANYTHING with O31 today, unless you're recreating a postwar dealer layout.  Lionel started touting Super O in the 50s and that was O36.  Even starter sets today come with O36.  O36 is the new O31, so I would consider that a minimum.

The geometry of O48 FasTrack is "weird"; the angles don't integrate well into many layout plans.  And IMO FasTrack is NOISY!! especially if two or three trains will be operating at once.  If your plan ends up with concentric ovals, I would use Atlas track with O36 and O45 curves.  You might need to add straights and "stagger" the O45 curves to increase distance between the mainlines for clearance purposes.

Personally I wouldn't gamble that scale-length diesels and steam designed for O54 will run well on O48.  They are what they are.  It's my opinion that O72 curves, scale Big Boys, ABA diesels, SD70M, etc., have no place in a 12 x 17 room.  An O72 outside loop leaves only 6 feet for the short straightaway.  That's too big a sacrifice for the amount of space you have to work with, and will limit your track plan to a basic oval.  If you really want one of these locos, put it on your mantle, and build a layout with O36 curves for "traditional size" equipment.  It'll be complex enough to offer operating variety, and long term play value.  My $.02.

Here is a concept using AtlasO track.  There is room of O54 sidings off the inner passing track.

Jan

Switching with talgo style couplers (coupler mounted to trucks) on 15 1/2 inch radius (I think that is what 031 is) is going to unreliable.     The larger the  curves the more reliable the equipment will run.   

Also, curved switches especially sharp ones tend to cause derailments switching.    I have a layout built with old PW stuff for grandkids that is underneath MY layout peninsula.     Shoving even 3-4 of those cars through the old lionel switches nearly always derails    

My opinion is to use Numbered switches  -  as big as  you want, but no smaller than a #4.    First it will keep you sidings closer together and second there will not be as sharp and "S" curve.    Keep them on the straight sections and use whatever radius on the curves.   

I can see that I left out a lot of important details, sorry.

The track I currently own is all Fastrack. The current layout is mostly all O36 with one 90* O48 curve. I have 4 O36 LCS turnouts, and 2 manual. So really, those 4 switches represent the biggest part of my investment -- so moving to Atlas is not "off the table" (pardon the pun). I have no intention of using anything tighter than O36. I would not mind having a six axle diesel that requires O54 in the future -- but a four axle GP is more realistic in the near term.

This is not what I call a permanent layout. I expect to move the benchwork someday and add to it. I don't expect to screw down the entire track -- just problem areas and maybe other places to anchor it as needed. Boring is okay for the mainline as nothing is boring to the grandkids. I'd like for them to be able to choose a route and reverse direction on the layout.

I am new to, but enjoying LCS control for the layout while using apps/handheld LC+ remote for the switcher. So maybe moving to Atlas other brand could be expensive as I'd need to integrate these into LCS somehow.

Local industry will be depicted so I need some space around the sidings for these. The spectators will enjoy seeing industries they can relate to here in the local area -- so I want to avoid "track everywhere."

Thanks for all the inputs.

Jack

@Jan posted:

Here is a concept using AtlasO track.  There is room of O54 sidings off the inner passing track.

Jan

This checks a lot of boxes, Jan! Thank you.

O48 is 100% worth it. My external loop is O48 and my inner loops is O36. You would be surprised what you can run on O48. I run my new Lionel Vision Line GS3 on it with no issues.  I can run 21" passenger cars (although most of my passenger cars are 18"), any scale Diesel engine minus a few corner cases here and there. Almost anything with an O54 rating IMHO can be used on O48. Now, I'm sure there are folks that say things don't look good running around curves like that, but I don't have a lot of room and I want to run scale equipment and frankly it's looks perfectly fine to me.

I think you won’t regret going wider.  I think 072 outer and 036 every where else.  You can fit 072 if you ever want the option some day to run the big stuff.  But keep the rest 036 to give yourself interest and layout space.  I kicked around just o36 curves but decided on 060 and then last minute changed one loop to 072.  Glad I did. Opens up the options to run a couple of the big ones.  

Here are my thoughts.  In manufacturer speak O-54 simply means it won't reliably operate around O-42.  Whether it is going to need the full 54" diameter or can operate on something slightly smaller is going  to be an item by item call.  Wider curves for space challenged modelers doesn't mean greater possibilities.  It means different possibilities.  The difference between using O-36 and O-72 is 4 pieces of 9" straight track for every 90 degree curve, plus the additional corner space which may or may not end up being dead space.  In terms of visual appeal the O-72 track is going to look better closer to the front edge, which won't put it where you need it if you are considering running equipment requiring larger curves.

Going back to your first design Jack I would be tempted to connect your two siding.  This would give you the potential of having two larger trains on the layout at the same time.  If you had a switch yard in one of your dog bones (which I would recommend if you go the O-36 route) then you could even be operating a train on the outside main while engaged in switching.

I have lots of O48 Fastrack as I recently upgraded.  Email me if you need some.  

It's critical you are brutally honest with yourself in determining what YOU want with your layout.   Write them down.  Now see if you have the resources in space, money and skill to make them a reality.

If not, refine your list until you get something which works for you. Face it, unless you have a huge space we all need to cut things from our wish list.

Based on what you've stated so far here are your wants:

• Run a train hands off
• Switching
• A desire to increase the ability of your railroad to accommodate larger equipment
• Ability to reverse trains
• Desire for something to hold the interest of kids
• The preference to use Lionel's LCS system

What I have below is one possible starting point.  It has:

• An O72 outside loop which can accommodate everything.  You will have to watch your clearances for overhang if you decide to run a Big Boy but it will fit based on your room measurements.
• Large passing sidings which can be accessed by anything as they use O72 curves
• A wye which can turn locomotives rated for O36 (railroads really don't use reverse loops in the real world except in rare circumstances)
• Room for multiple industries for switching
• You can use the LCS system with any type of track with nothing else needed.   It will require some wiring skill as there are no plugs on Atlas tracks but what can be done is to use the Fastrack specialty tracks and hide them under a tunnel which lifts up or has an easy access panel built into one of the sides.  Atlas track and Fastrack can be joined.
• The red switches are O72, the blue are O54, and the green are O36.

Regardless of what you decide, keep us informed of your progress!

-Greg

@Greg Houser posted:

It's critical you are brutally honest with yourself in determining what YOU want with your layout.   Write them down.  Now see if you have the resources in space, money and skill to make them a reality.

If not, refine your list until you get something which works for you. Face it, unless you have a huge space we all need to cut things from our wish list.

Based on what you've stated so far here are your wants:

• Run a train hands off
• Switching
• A desire to increase the ability of your railroad to accommodate larger equipment
• Ability to reverse trains
• Desire for something to hold the interest of kids
• The preference to use Lionel's LCS system

What I have below is one possible starting point.  It has:

• An O72 outside loop which can accommodate everything.  You will have to watch your clearances for overhang if you decide to run a Big Boy but it will fit based on your room measurements.
• Large passing sidings which can be accessed by anything as they use O72 curves
• A wye which can turn locomotives rated for O36 (railroads really don't use reverse loops in the real world except in rare circumstances)
• Room for multiple industries for switching
• You can use the LCS system with any type of track with nothing else needed.   It will require some wiring skill as there are no plugs on Atlas tracks but what can be done is to use the Fastrack specialty tracks and hide them under a tunnel which lifts up or has an easy access panel built into one of the sides.  Atlas track and Fastrack can be joined.
• The red switches are O72, the blue are O54, and the green are O36.

Regardless of what you decide, keep us informed of your progress!

-Greg

Thanks Greg. You went to a lot of trouble and I appreciate it.

While I would love a Y, I think I'm going to have to stick with reverse loops for the kids. It fills two squares also: Turning the train around and choosing a new route. They might help keep the switching ops off the main, too.

O72 is what everyone recommends but it is hard for me to give up 50% of the line to curves. I'm thinking Atlas 54 is going to be my compromise. I'll have to export it to TrainPlayer and see how it works in the simulator.

Although you might not anticipate it now, there may come a time when you want to own and run a large, scale-sized locomotive. Therefore, I recommend O-72 for the outer loop and smaller radii for everything else.

MELGAR

About to try this in the sim.

Atlas O. For simplicity I made everything O54.

Atlas O 54 turnouts... 10" long straight, 14.5" long, or optional 10/14.5? My layout software has them at 10" -- but show to have a connected 4.5" straight added on when I look at them online?

AtlasO O54 switches come with a 4.5" straight that is connected to the trough track.

I like your new concept.

Jan

Jack:  Something like that is what I had in mind when I made my comments.  Now let me throw out one other bit of advice.  Before you become fully invested, set the basic portion of the layout up on the floor and run it for a couple of months with the biggest stuff you have.  This will not only allow you to confirm whether you are on the right track.  It will also reveal whether you are going to run into problems with the overhang on any of your equipment.

Your first track plan and the one just above do not support continuous loop-running of two trains at a time unless they are on the same track. I suggest adding an inner loop so that you have at least two independent loops to allow continuous loop-running of two trains at a time. You have room for it and I think you should consider it.

MELGAR

@JackO posted:

About to try this in the sim.

Atlas O. For simplicity I made everything O54.

My 2 cents - lose the yard.  Your yard lead is too short for it to be functioning and it takes up too much space.   I also suggest determining what industries you want to have as you have limited spacing in some areas.   Perhaps think of your inner area as a small branch line with perhaps a small engine servicing facility.   The passing siding can function as an interchange track where a train on the main can drop off a cut of cars to be picked up by the branch line to service local industries and vice versa.

A question to ask yourself - is your intent to have one person running a train along the outer loop at the same time someone is switching or not?  If the answer is yes, then what you are proposing isn't practical as the reverse loops would never come into play as they interfere with switching operations and though it occurs in real life, the general rule of the day is 'never foul the main'.

Regarding the switches: the early runs of Atlas switches were all one piece but future ones are 10" long with a separate 4.5" section to get to the original 14.5" length.  A lot of the track design software programs list them as O54 "cut" switches as you can remove the 4.5" section.   If you find original ones at a good price you can just cut them (or any switch for matter) with an inexpensive chop saw or dremel tool.

As for kids and reverse loops - I have too many hours to count working with kids at our open houses.  You'd be surprised how well they operate the trains using command control.  Don't sell them short with respect to operating a wye (plus as someone else mentioned, they don't stay young for long). 

-Greg

@MELGAR posted:

Your first track plan and the one just above do not support continuous loop-running of two trains at a time unless they are on the same track. I suggest adding an inner loop so that you have at least two independent loops to allow continuous loop-running of two trains at a time. You have room for it and I think you should consider it.

MELGAR

I was writing my last response while Melgar was posting - I wholeheartedly agree with his suggestion.

-Greg

How about something like this? All O72 with some O84 and O96.  There's room for some yards and sidings, I just got lazy.  Grade is 2.4%

@rplst8 posted:

How about something like this? All O72 with some O84 and O96.  There's room for some yards and sidings, I just got lazy.  Grade is 2.4%

I'm sticking to single level, with only one lift-out. Interesting tho.

@Greg Houser posted:

My 2 cents - lose the yard.  Your yard lead is too short for it to be functioning and it takes up too much space.   I also suggest determining what industries you want to have as you have limited spacing in some areas.   Perhaps think of your inner area as a small branch line with perhaps a small engine servicing facility.   The passing siding can function as an interchange track where a train on the main can drop off a cut of cars to be picked up by the branch line to service local industries and vice versa.

A question to ask yourself - is your intent to have one person running a train along the outer loop at the same time someone is switching or not?  If the answer is yes, then what you are proposing isn't practical as the reverse loops would never come into play as they interfere with switching operations and though it occurs in real life, the general rule of the day is 'never foul the main'.

Regarding the switches: the early runs of Atlas switches were all one piece but future ones are 10" long with a separate 4.5" section to get to the original 14.5" length.  A lot of the track design software programs list them as O54 "cut" switches as you can remove the 4.5" section.   If you find original ones at a good price you can just cut them (or any switch for matter) with an inexpensive chop saw or dremel tool.

As for kids and reverse loops - I have too many hours to count working with kids at our open houses.  You'd be surprised how well they operate the trains using command control.  Don't sell them short with respect to operating a wye (plus as someone else mentioned, they don't stay young for long). 

-Greg

Definitely need the yard, as it is key to switching puzzles. Yard lead in is 51" long, which takes out a lot of the challenge of the puzzles.

The best option for the main is a semi-autonomous route that changes via anti-derail switching and "main line size" reversing loops.

I can save some space by moving a lot of the non-interactive industries along the sides so I can use photos instead of structures. Having actual photos of local industries would create a lot of interest.

Updated to add the ability to run a second train on the top while one runs the loop below.  Also added some industry sidings and a yard of sorts.  Still all O72 or greater.

Is this Atlas or Fastrack?

Any chance I could get a copy? I'd love to run it on the simulator.

@Volphin posted:

I have lots of O48 Fastrack as I recently upgraded.  Email me if you need some.  

Email sent to your profile email.

@JackO posted:

Is this Atlas or Fastrack?

Any chance I could get a copy? I'd love to run it on the simulator.

It's all FastTrack.

Here you go.

@rplst8 posted:

It's all FastTrack.

Here you go.

Thanks. I like the flow. I need a bigger room.

@JackO posted:

Thanks. I like the flow. I need a bigger room.

Don’t we all, don’t we all...

Not once have I ever heard or read anyone say their curves were too big.  Never.

Go with the largest curves your room and layout design can handle.  You will never regret it.  If you go O48 at some time you will say I should have done O54.  If you do O54, eventually you will wish you had O72.

With O72 you should be able to run anything ever made in 3 rail.

Good luck.

Ron