Passeger cars hurting signal

I have the same situation. It's all illuminated cars. Please see the !#@**#! DCS thread toward the last few posts. I reduced the number of center rail feeds making longer sections or blocks, cut a couple of center rail gaps, and my signal went to 9-10 until I put lighted passenger cars on, then the signal went to h*** in a handbasket. Two people in the thread said to get RF filters for the center rail wire for each car; one mentioned a specific MTH part number. Personally, I think that's a lot of work. According to one poster, the problem or condition is a known one to MTH and has been for a long time. Other manufacturers should take notice and include an RF filter(s) on their illuminated cars. It'll add a cost, though.

Any passenger with a pc board for voltage regulation like for LED may affect the TIU signal. AtlasO Cabooses cause the problem, some TMCC engines also will affect signal.

To expect other importers to modify their products to work with MTH control system is not likely to happen with the exception being 3rdrail.

I keep a stock of the filters and modify engines/cabooses as I notice they affect my MTH engines.

As far as I know MTH passenger cars do not have constant voltage lighting circuits. It is my understanding that only those cars with CV circuits using capacitors would cause a problem. If I am wrong on this someone please correct me. On those a 22 uh choke added would cost about 20 cents each to add but you would have to take the car apart to install it.

The choke is pictured in some circuits in this link available from Mouser.com


http://www.jcstudiosinc.com/Bl...d=487&categoryId=426


Dale H

I have seven (7) MTH heavyweight Pullman cars that degrade the DCS signal from 10 to 6-7 when pulled behind my new PS2 cab forward. These cars all have original incandescent lighting. I first noticed this condition after reducing the number of center rail feeders (in order to improve track signal) when the cab forward was pulling the seven 3rd Rail brass Harriman cars I have. The 3rd Rail cars have a lighting circuit board. The 3rd Rail cars reduced the track signal to 4-5. So the condition exists with both types of lighting. Run your PS2 DCS engine by itself on a main line and check track signal with lighted passenger cars on a siding that can be turned off, thereby removing the lighted cars from the circuit. While the engine is in track signal mode, note the signal level, then energize the siding with the lighted passenger cars and watch your track signal on the DCS remote screen.

I have several of those cars and that does not happen. How big is the layout and how close are your feeders?

quote:

I have seven (7) MTH heavyweight Pullman cars that degrade the DCS signal from 10 to 6-7 when pulled behind my new PS2 cab forward.

I'm wondering if you may be too caught-up in the "track signal" number. I'm part of the Independent Hi-Railers, Mid-West Division, and we never even bother with what ever the DCS track signal is. The modulay layout is some 42 feet by 72 feet, with an inside freight/staging yard, and depending on what type of convention center we are set up in, the DCS and Legacy and TMCC all work well together. We have a three track main line, and generall have two trains at once on EACH main line, without regard to passenger or freight. One of our members has an 11 car older MTH Santa Fe Super Chief, which does not cause any issues with any DCS powered train, any place on the layout.

On my home layout (double track main line, with a large steam locomotive servicing facility, plus a modest freight yard)), I have DCS (two TIUs in "super" mode with six different transformer power feeds), Legacy and TMCC, generally all operating together, and don't have any problems. I can't tell you the last time I even checked the DCS track signal! Why? Because I really don't care WHAT the signal is, so long as my layout operates the way I, and my fellow modelers, expact.

quote:

Originally posted by mtnhi7:
I have seven (7) MTH heavyweight Pullman cars that degrade the DCS signal from 10 to 6-7 when pulled behind my new PS2 cab forward. These cars all have original incandescent lighting. I first noticed this condition after reducing the number of center rail feeders (in order to improve track signal) when the cab forward was pulling the seven 3rd Rail brass Harriman cars I have. The 3rd Rail cars have a lighting circuit board. The 3rd Rail cars reduced the track signal to 4-5. So the condition exists with both types of lighting. Run your PS2 DCS engine by itself on a main line and check track signal with lighted passenger cars on a siding that can be turned off, thereby removing the lighted cars from the circuit. While the engine is in track signal mode, note the signal level, then energize the siding with the lighted passenger cars and watch your track signal on the DCS remote screen.

Very puzzling. I would suspect some kind of voltage drop problem associated with wiring. I would convert to LED lighting also. 1/2 watt per car as opposed to 5 to 10 watts.

Dale H

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Water:
I'm wondering if you may be too caught-up in the "track signal" number. I'm part of the Independent Hi-Railers, Mid-West Division, and we never even bother with what ever the DCS track signal is. The modulay layout is some 42 feet by 72 feet, with an inside freight/staging yard, and depending on what type of convention center we are set up in, the DCS and Legacy and TMCC all work well together. We have a three track main line, and generall have two trains at once on EACH main line, without regard to passenger or freight. One of our members has an 11 car older MTH Santa Fe Super Chief, which does not cause any issues with any DCS powered train, any place on the layout.

On my home layout (double track main line, with a large steam locomotive servicing facility, plus a modest freight yard)), I have DCS (two TIUs in "super" mode with six different transformer power feeds), Legacy and TMCC, generally all operating together, and don't have any problems. I can't tell you the last time I even checked the DCS track signal! Why? Because I really don't care WHAT the signal is, so long as my layout operates the way I, and my fellow modelers, expact.

Amen to that! (I added the boldface to Hot Water's quote)

I measured the track signal (by the numbers) once, and that was it. I prefer to tell how well the trains are running simply by their response to speed changes. I have almostt 1,000 feet of track and 57 switch-tracks on my 33' x 38' layout, and have minimal problems which I have not taken the time to investigate, but which do not keep me from running the trains. And, by the way, this includes running two passenger trains simultaneouly, all MTH premier with the original lighting; one with five cars, and the other with nine cars.

But from what I have learned, every layout is different and there are many variables in the wiring and connections, which sometimes make it difficult to troubleshoot a problem.

Just my 2¢, and Doug, I hope you can resolve your problem soon .

Alex

Hi Guys: Thanks to all of you for your insight. Just a little further info on our layout. 5 mainlines, star wiring with power feeds approx. 15ft. apart, all track wiring is 14 gauge stranded copper wire. The main reason I posted this is because when I have the 2 passenger sets on the layout- it does seem to create operational issues. We did the siding test already, and when the sidings are energized - the signal strength drops. Am I under-powered with the 2 ZW transformers? 3 mainlines on one, 2 on the other + sidings? Most of our engines are newer MTH, several SD70 double headers, some Atlas & Lionel engines.

Doug

You should take a few minutes to read the post by Jack4 on the "passenger car interference" thread. It contains relevant info and more detailed info is available st the sources mentioned in the post.

HOT Water,
You make a great point, its not the numbers its the quality running that is important. I eliminated this problem with the initial engineering out set plan, and
placed the correct lighting along the tracks every so many feet. I had no DCS signal loss what so ever, and I ran numerous big lighted passsenger cars any where I wanted on the layout. Busyman what you must understand is that under powering a DCS layout screws the DCS layout up from the very beginning. Take a glance at the last photo and see how much power it took to correctly run my large DCS layout.
PCRR

All the lighted passenger cars were on the tracks at the same time in these next two pictures, its a matter of engineering everything out correctly.


A 13 Passenger Car Pa Silver Train with MTH, DCS GG1 Engine, this train with all its lighted cars never effected the DCS signal, because of the lights along the tracks.


Always over power your DCS layouts, especially if you plan to expand, long ago I got this piece of advise from Barry, it was very sound advise. It took a Z4K, two ZW's and a KW to power my DCS layout.