Problems with SYSTEM after Joining 2 135 watt Lionel Bricks together

You need this cable- brick to TIU - with spade lugs instead of banana plugs. (better connection) One brick for a channel. One channel for each separate loop.

The Powermasters replace the handles of the transformer and let you vary the voltage for conventional running or setting a specific voltage.

Variable 1 & 2 on the TIU will let you do the same thing. That's why you don't need them for DCS. Connect the TMCC/Legacy base wire to the common out (black) on the TIU.

Using the Lionel TPC plugs and joining the two Powerhouses together gave you 18 volts with 15 amps. Not needed for your trains.

Visit a store and get some new fuses for the TIU. The TIU manual lists the type.

So, take a deep breath, order the cables above and read Barry's Bible for DCS while you wait for them to arrive. If you don't have it, you need it to play with DCS.

Kenny,

Well,instead of going into a TPC,I thought I could simply now connect mine directly to the TIU,on fixed channel 1.

That was a huge mistake.

You may have damaged the TIU. The purpose of using the TPC is to safely combine two power sources into one output.

Regardless, whenever using more than 10 amps potential draw with a TIU, you must wire the TIU in Passive TIU mode.

This and a whole lot more is all in “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at OGR’s web store!

FWIW, paralleling like transformers should not be an issue, however Barry correctly points out that the individual TIU channels are only rated for 10A maximum.  In addition, the circuit breakers on the PH135 aren't all that great, and paralleling them to further confuse the breakers is even worse.  I don't see how the TPC adds to the mix, you still have the same issue of putting too much power through the TIU channel.

I use 4 bricks to my TIU 1 to each channel. But use the TMCC direct lock-ons. These plug directly into each brick 1 per Lionel power brick. The Direct lock on then goes to each TIU channel. The Direct lock on is circuit breaker, surge protection. The box has green lights on it when it is running OK, when there is a short on the track the direct lock on breaks the circuit for a few seconds and will keep trying to turn on every few seconds.

You are better off if you need more power going to a 180 watt brick.  And best to have 1 brick per TIU channel rather then trying to use 2 bricks to 1 channel.

There has been a lot of discussion on this forum about how much power you really need to the tracks.  However, if you really want more power by paralleling two PH135s through a TPC to get about 15 amps to the track you need to set up the TIU in passive mode.  Attached is a drawing on how I would do it using a PSX-AC fast acting resettable CB.  The choke is needed because the PSX seems to interfere with the DCS signal.   You can replace the PSX/choke combination with a fast acting fuse.

Well Ollie, What a fine mess I've gotten myself into this time!!!  Looks like the TIU will be going out for repair ,I buy all of my stuff used,so there's very rarely any instruction manuals to read.  What does it mean to wire the TIU in "passive" mode?

The friend who told me I could do this(Run two bricks into one),told me he has his TIU's in passive mode.

Is this something that is done as a modification by the repairman?Does this then allow me to run the two  135 bricks together then????  

I am getting another TIU in the mail later this week,so I should just run 1 brick directly to Channel Fixed 1???,like I was doing before?????

Are the power masters needed at all?

I had no problems when I was running one brick through one power master to fixed 1, so maybe this is the best way for me to do it until I find out what the passive mode is????

 I am waiting to her back from Marty Fitz,I bought the TIU from him,and I've already had him update it once for me.He'll know if I fried this one,or if it just needs fuses(hopefully)  

I did not smell or see any "magic smoke",as soon as I saw the light was out(and train not running),I unplugged everything and ran conventional for the rest of the evening ,with no TIU.

Thanks Everyone,another lesson learned,and hopefully not too much damage was done to the TIU.-more comments about the passive mode question and if I need these power masters greatly appreciated .-kennyb

Kenney,

What does it mean to wire the TIU in "passive" mode?

This may help. It's on page 119 of The DCS Companion 3rd Edition.

This and a whole lot more is all in “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at OGR’s web store!

Kenny,

I think all of us are trying to understand why you need 15amps of power.

Are you running dual motored AC Pulmor motor engines in ABBA configurations with 10 incandescent lighted cars?

You should not have any problems with one brick per track or channel running modern equipment.

Hello, I want this much power because I do run looooonnnnggg trains,with the old lighting still in them.5-6 engines and some dummies with smoke and sound units,and occasionally lash-ups getting ever closer to my goal of pulling 200 cars,which takes some POWER to get and keep ,moving. I run them HARD and FAST,and as mentioned,have pulled 178 cars, a mix of heavy postwar and Mth car haulers,with the die cast cars on them.Those are heavy cars.  

And I guess you could say the same thing about an OLD Muscle Car,why do you NEED all that Horsepower???.....Or a new Corvette,which is just insane on the horsepower.  Just because you can run HOT!!!!

I am still taking my licks and learning on this DCS platform,but as long as i'm alive and earning money,I want the most BANG for my BUCK.... I have 37 of the old Aluminum #2500 series postwar cars,and have not yet learned how to put LED's in them,so you can imagine the amps those lights would eat up.Then your engines,smoke units blasting on high,the available amps disappear very quickly.

I did not know I could run in this passive mode,where the power is AFTER the TIU,that should stop me from blowing up any more fuses!! So I will have to power the TIU through  AUX power correct ?,if I choose to run in passive mode.RIght????  Thanks for the comments guys.  

Im with you Kenny !!  Big trains take POWER. And I need all the power in one power district  not four. my Z4000 did a better job with 2 power districts than four 180 bricks in four districts. 

Clem

Kenny,

So I will have to power the TIU through  AUX power correct ?,if I choose to run in passive mode.RIght????

Not necessarily, as long as there is always power to Fixed #1 Output in passive mode.

However, I would highly recommend using a separate power source into the Aux. Power port.

Wasn't there a problem with inconsistent phasing with some of the earliest Lionel bricks? If so, wouldn't there be an potential issue with combining their outputs?

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Not necessarily, as long as there is always power to Fixed #1 Output in passive mode.

Learn something new every day.  Missed this when I read Barry's book.

However, I plan to continue powering the TIU from a separate power source.

Kenny,

I understand your need for more power; I also run long power hunger trains.  You can lower overall power requirements by going to LEDs and turning off the smoke but I don't want to do either of those things.  It’s easier to just increase power and it looks like you have most everything you need already.

Increased power has its disadvantages, especially the "welding to the track" possibility during a derailment.  This is why I use the very fast acting PSX-AC resettable CB.  You can use a fast acting 15 amp fuse, but if you want a resettable CB the PSX is probably the best way to go for our power requirements.  I also recommend numerous TVSs (they are cheap).  There is a TVS failure mode that is not detectable, so I like backups.  I definitely would have a TVS at every track connection.

Below is my diagram on how I would set up the power.

Personally, I think you should go with LED lighting, but maybe I'm biased.

MORE VOLTAGE IGOR!!! NOW!! IGOR!!!!!

MORE VOLTAGE IGOR!!!  

I simply MUST HAVE MORE VOLTAGE!!!!-

Dr.Frankenstien

(aka Trainkenstien) AHHHHHAAAAAA!!!!!

I'M MAD!!!

I'M completely MAD!!!

kennyb posted:

I'M MAD!!!

I'M completely MAD!!!

Yep, we kinda' gathered that.

More power! 

CAPPilot posted:

Kenny,

I understand your need for more power; I also run long power hunger trains.  You can lower overall power requirements by going to LEDs and turning off the smoke but I don't want to do either of those things.  It’s easier to just increase power and it looks like you have most everything you need already.

Increased power has its disadvantages, especially the "welding to the track" possibility during a derailment.  This is why I use the very fast acting PSX-AC resettable CB.  You can use a fast acting 15 amp fuse, but if you want a resettable CB the PSX is probably the best way to go for our power requirements.  I also recommend numerous TVSs (they are cheap).  There is a TVS failure mode that is not detectable, so I like backups.  I definitely would have a TVS at every track connection.

Below is my diagram on how I would set up the power.

Hello, kennyb  here.This looks like a great setup.

Forgive my ignorance,but what does TVS stand for,and what is it's function/purpose?

Also,Can you explain to me what the PSX-AC means,and what is it's function?

And alas,can you refer me to a place where I can purchase them?,if I decide to go this route?

I do want to have TMCC/Legacy in the picture also,as I just acquired a very nice model of the J-1E Empire State Express that was made by K-Line.

It features TMCC and Railsounds,and it's a nice model,if you don't want to spend $1,500 on The New Lionel version with the whistle steam.

I had it running nice on the layout before my "Experiment " shut things down.

Look on my You Tube channel:Lionel For Less,and search Empire State Express,if you'd like to see it.I call it The Poor man's Empire Express!!!but it's really a great looking model.

I think I m going to have this particular train converted over to a 3 volt,PS2 electronics package ,but i am wrestling with this decision,as it ran great in TMCC,but man would it sound better with a PS2 upgrade,and a better speaker.

Thanks for the diagram,I saved it,and please explain to me what these TVS and PSX-AC are and how they function in the system.

Any other wiring diagrams you have to educate me about these command systems ,please post them.I'm trying to absorb all of the knowledge I can.  You guys are terrific tutors to a mind hungry for knowledge ,and a layout hungry for AMPS!!!!!-Thanks,Kenny

gunrunnerjohn posted:

kennyb posted:

I'M MAD!!!

I'M completely MAD!!!

Yep, we kinda' gathered that.

You got it Gunner. Did not take long to figure that out,right? One of the greatest assets a person can possess,is the ability to laugh at one's SELF!!!These are trains,not anything serious like nuclear codes or decisions we have to make in our everyday  life,the might affect others,as well as my self.!!!!

I feel like this at times,when I'm trying to push the envelope and see where it goes!!!!It's fun,Expensive,but fun.  

How much is your LED passenger car setup?,and is one of these required in every 2 cars???And if so,

Do you have a discount if a certain quantity is ordered at the same time?(Say 25)kits,then on 50 kits? my email is in my profile should you need it.

Does the kit feature an ON/OFF switch?

And just how much is the difference between the  Amperage  draw between two #2500 series Old Aluminum Lionel cars with the old lighting,and then with those same two cars with the kit installed the you have for sale??

I know it is considerable ,but I have never learned exactly how much it reduces Amperage draw. Are the kits available in different hues of white?Are they available in different colors??

Many thanks,Kenny Baughman

Casey Jones2 posted:

More power! 

YES!!!!! YES!!!!! George Tesla knew Electric power was a vibrational frequency,and when he started talking about GIVING it away to everyone,His Tower mysteriously burnt down,along with his priceless research ,

Had he been able to work undisturbed,the whole world would be 50 years ahead of the technology we think is so amazing now.  He understood this in a whole different DIMENSION,and those funding his studies,knew how brilliant he truly was,and they did not like the fact that he intended to GIVE this tech FREE to the whole world, WIRELESS at the point also . 

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Kenny,

So I will have to power the TIU through  AUX power correct ?,if I choose to run in passive mode.RIght????

Not necessarily, as long as there is always power to Fixed #1 Output in passive mode.

However, I would highly recommend using a separate power source into the Aux. Power port.

Thanks Barry,I do truly appreciate your swift replies to my questions,and a lot of what I know I have learned from you helping me out on here.-Kenny

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Kenney,

What does it mean to wire the TIU in "passive" mode?

This may help. It's on page 119 of The DCS Companion 3rd Edition.

---

This and a whole lot more is all in “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at OGR’s web store!

Hello Barry, I FINALLY downloaded the book tonight!!!! At least I would have known about passive wiring,had I ordered it sooner!!!! As always ,thanks for your quick responses and very helpful guidance-SINCERELY,Kenny Baughman

If you were not adverse to a little soldering, you can simply buy the LED Lighting Regulator and a couple of 5 meter rolls of LEDs. Each roll of LEDs will do around fifteen or so of the 2500 cars, and the LED rolls are $5 or less.  As for color, you can buy the LED color you want, the full lighting kits have warm white LED strips in them.  For older heavyweight cars, for instance, I now use yellow LED's, looks more prototypical.  For some of the modern current generation cars, I might use the bright white that would look more like fluorescent lighting.

The power draw difference is astounding, you'll be drawing about 5-10% of the power that the incandescent lighting draws.  In addition, the lighting will be a lot more even and flicker-free as you run.  You can also vary the intensity of the lighting to your liking.  There is no on/off switch, you'd have to mount a switch where you could reach it from the outside, so if that was a desired option, just mount your own switch in the track pickup lead. 

Most of my upgraded 18" cars are using around 30ma total current to light the car.  With the older incandescent lighting, my 18" MTH cars were using about 400ma of current for each car.  The two bulbs in those cars are in the 300-400ma total current draw, don't know exactly what bulb is in there.

kennyb posted

what does TVS stand for,and what is it's function/purpose?

Can you explain to me what the PSX-AC means, and what is it's function?

can you refer me to a place where I can purchase them?,if I decide to go this route?

TVS/Transient Voltage Suppression. This data is from multiple forum sources (not me):  All the TVS does is conduct voltage spikes which are harmful to devices with PC chips. Voltage spikes are brief but can be 80 volts or more. Modern engines and equipment have solid state electronics with PC chips an high voltage spikes can damage solid state electronics over time. A TVS limits the max voltage to I think around 38V. The recommended TVS here on the forum is Digi-Key Part Number 1.5KE36CALFCT-ND - 1.5KE36CA - 36 volt, bi-directional. You need one of these for every input and output of any of the transformers, TPC's and any other device that conducts electric to your layout. Fuses alone will not protect any of the devices from a power surge. A number of people have had the electronics in the TPC300's and 400's burn up because of power surges that is why it is recommended to install a TVS on both inputs and outputs. For extra protection, add one at each power drop, center rail to outside rail (the one wired up). Spikes can come from elsewhere through the transformer, or from arcs and sparks on the layout. Snubbing them at all possible locations works best. It has been said the TVS should be as close to the board it is protecting as possible, so the best place for them is inside the engine on the center rail power roller to the frame. Unfortunately, a real pain to do.

PSX-AC/PowerShield X for AC.  From ad, these are "Intelligent, high powered, solid state circuit breakers compatible with AC, TMCC, and DCS."  Basically, it is a very fast resettable CB with added features that is available at Charles Ro.  Its not cheap, around $45-50, and I think it does degrade the DCS signal so you also need a 34amp 22uH choke between it and a TIU.  The PSX-AC has adjustable overvoltage protection (4.8 to 17.8 amps), automatic reset that can be changed to manual, outputs for LEDs for input/output power and status, output for an audio alert, plus other stuff.  I use a lighted switch, NKK/KB15SKW01-5C-JC-RO, with connections to the reset and status LED.  When the PSX trips the switch lights up, and after I correct the situation I press the switch and it resets.

Hope that helps.