PRR 1361 K4 - Boiler and Belpaire Firebox Walkthrough Video

Kelly,

Note that PRR 1361 is a K4s. You might want to edit your title.

Omitting the "s" is a deliberate choice for the same reason one never goes out of their way to call the 765 an "S2" Berkshire.

@nathansixchime posted:

Omitting the "s" is intentional for the same reason one never goes out of their way to call the 765 an "S2" Berkshire.

OK, but,,,,,,,,,,if 765 is NOT an "S2" Berkshire,,,,,,,,,,then what is she?  SP 4449 is a GS-4, so why wouldn't PRR 1361 be a K4s?

No one said she wasn't It's a deliberate choice.  Context, linguistics, usage, and audience are key.

Regarding the 765, there's a reason it says N.Y. C. & ST.L in small letters on the sand dome and top of the tender, but everyone commonly knows it as the Nickel Plate Road.

Semantics and nomenclature have their place, but in general messaging regarding the 765, I would rarely (if ever) use the corporate name of the railroad because it's generally confusing without context to the general audience. It's technically correct to say "New York Chicago & St. Louis" but also, wait doesn't the side of the tender just say Nickel Plate Road?

So, the question becomes...what reads better to the overall audience?

PRR PACIFIC CLASS K4s-TYPE STEAM LOCOMOTIVE NO. 1361 or Pennsylvania Railroad K4 No. 1361

NEW YORK CHICAGO AND ST. LOUIS (NICKEL PLATE ROAD) BERKSHIRE CLASS S2 TYPE STEAM LOCOMOTIVE 765 or Nickel Plate Road No. 765.

There's a handful of other considerations – from character limits in a thread title to whether or not there is supporting contextual information, i.e. the website or the video content itself (notice neither the Museum website nor the person in the video go out of their way to specify it is a K4s...which means then it's just confusing and inconsistent if I start using K4s when everything else connected to it simply says K4.)

The people who know, know.

The people who don't, learn.

For the people in the middle, the question is does it move the needle?

Believe it or not, all of this thought and consideration happened well before I wrote the title.

"K4" is iconic, a lot like the B-52 aircraft. Did you know there's a B-52a and B52c? Most wouldn't. Because the B52 is what is commonly used. Most folks instantly know what a B2 is.

But I think the simple answer is this: 1361 is representative of the overall K4 class.

So, K4 it is.

Kelly,

  Maybe the general public would deal with it better as a K4, but those of us who have an understanding of this iconic locomotive would prefer what we think of as accuracy with the use of K4s.

  Either way, thank you for posting. Mr. Fengler seems like a thorough professional and I can say that I wish him much success in this project. It is great to see progress for her.

Tom

Very nicely done and well presented video.  The narrator did a great job of explaining some of the finer points.

There's an old adage about forests and trees.  Sometimes I think we get so hung up in the details, dash or no dash, s or no s, 9 rivets or 10, 3 chimes or 5 ... etc. that I think we forget to enjoy and witness the beauty in the overall picture.

Another steam locomotive is being saved, back to an operational state, and being done correctly.  I'm not going to concern myself, at this point, with where it can or will run, who's going to operate it, how it's going to be paid for.  I'm just going to be happy that it's being done.

Tom,

Absolutely! But in conveying messages to a general audience, you have to draw a line somewhere near a common denominator and also be consistent.

If this were exclusively a Pennsy forum, it'd be an entirely different story, because the intended audience is narrow, limited, specific, and intimately familiar with the subject matter. Not everyone reading these threads is a necessarily a historian or steam locomotive professional, either. As I shared, there are plenty of considerations and motivations afoot.

Driver of a 2018 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Sport JL – or simply, the iconic, Jeep,

Got it, but for me, I actually had a classic Jeep CJ-7!!!

I get the idea, though.

Tom

Bahahah, now you're talking

Very well done! It appears that this work is being done in a very thorough and professional manner. As for the "s", the first thing that it brings to mind is "plural"!

Nice vid.  In plain English.

Problem with the "s" in PRR locomotive classes is that later classes did not use it.  The 2 engine K5 clsss is an example.

Considering we are only discussing 1361 as of now, I am not going to worry about the "s".

We call the soft drink "Coke", even though the full name is "Coca-Cola".  Same thing here.

@Dominic Mazoch posted:

Nice vid.  In plain English.

Problem with the "s" in PRR locomotive classes is that later classes did not use it.  The 2 engine K5 clsss is an example.

That is because "later classes" were originally built with superheated steam, while earlier classes were not, but later up-graded to superheated steam, thus the sub-class "s".

Considering we are only discussing 1361 as of now, I am not going to worry about the "s".

However, in the world of preservation and educating the public, that "s" should be important part of that accurate education process.

We call the soft drink "Coke", even though the full name is "Coca-Cola".  Same thing here.

Nope. Apples and oranges.

@Hot Water posted:

@Dominic Mazoch posted:

Nice vid.  In plain English.

Problem with the "s" in PRR locomotive classes is that later classes did not use it.  The 2 engine K5 clsss is an example.

That is because "later classes" were originally built with superheated steam, while earlier classes were not, but later up-graded to superheated steam, thus the sub-class "s".

Considering we are only discussing 1361 as of now, I am not going to worry about the "s".

However, in the world of preservation and educating the public, that "s" should be important part of that accurate education process.

We call the soft drink "Coke", even though the full name is "Coca-Cola".  Same thing here.

Nope. Apples and oranges.

I actually agree with Jack here.  Calling her "1361" or "The Spirit of Altoona" would be OK, but strictly speaking a plain K4 she is not.

Good on the OP for not using a dash though.  That would be a C&O locomotive.

@rplst8 posted:

I actually agree with Jack here.  Calling her "1361" or "The Spirit of Altoona" would be OK, but strictly speaking a plain K4 she is not.

Good on the OP for not using a dash though.  That would be a C&O locomotive.

While yes the 1361 is a “K4s”, simply using “K4” works as well, people in preservation will (usually) know what class you’re talking about with or without the S. If we really want to be specific, PRR 7002 (8063) isn’t the E2a that it is dressed as, it’s actually an E7s. The common tourist wouldn’t know the difference, nor would many railfans. Bickering over the definitive term used to describe a locomotive class (one with almost no entirely alike locomotive) is just unnecessary nitpicking. I’ve never really heard someone specifically say “New York, Chicago, and St Louis 765 the S2 class 2-8-4 Berkshire”, often it’s just shortened to “Berk” or “Berkshire”.

Interesting video, and they're even keeping the Bel Paire firebox.  Another exciting steam locomotive rebuild!

Not being a steam expert I usually go along with what Hot Water says. However I too usually refer to 1361 as a K4 too.

I turn 70 this weekend so I am glad to see something good happening to getting 1361 running (soon I hope). Last time I saw 1361 she was on a flatcar in pieces leaving Steamtown.

I have two questions.

1. When is it going to run?

2. Where is it going to run?

@jim sutter posted:

I have two questions.

1. When is it going to run?

When it is finished.

2. Where is it going to run?

My guess would be on the Reading & Blue Mountain RR (or is it now called the Reading & Northern?).

Dear Kelly,

Thank you for sharing the video to all of us.

Hopefully restoration after all these years.

Are all the pieces there ? Tender ?

Thank you. John

Hot Water,

Do you have any idea when this work will be completed?

@jim sutter posted:

Hot Water,

Do you have any idea when this work will be completed?

Absolutely not, and neither do the sponsors. A lot depends on fund raising also. You simply can NOT rush this sort of work.

@jdunn posted:

Dear Kelly,

Thank you for sharing the video to all of us.

Hopefully restoration after all these years.

Are all the pieces there ? Tender ?

Thank you. John

Yep, it's all there. As the Director of Special Projects for the mechanical and consulting firm doing the work, there will be more video updates in the coming weeks and months. Transparency is the name of the game. Hoping to also get a full engineering survey/discovery document published later this year, too.

Boy I'd love to see her without her post-war “beauty treatment”.  But I doubt I will.

Jon

Good morning, whether  you refer to this Pennsylvania Steam Engine as a K4, K4s, Pennsy Pacific, Juanita’s Jewel, the Official  PA State Locomotive etc etc etc, I am just glad and I am sure many of you are also to see that there is serious progress in this long overdue rebuild of this particular locomotive.

The latest video posted here and the news of upcoming videos of the rebuild will help keep the locomotive in the forefront which may also help with funds needed for the repair.

Thanks to everyone involved in the past, present and in the future for making this rebuild of this particular steam engine, what ever you want to call it a reality.

Perhaps it is a blessing that this project was delayed until the technology to map out and redesign the firebox evolved to where it is today. I  recall that twenty plus years ago the fire box was a stumbling block to getting the engine to meet current regulations. It is good to see the extent of the study and the engineering plans to ensure the safety of the boiler and firebox so that the project can move forward.  When completed the engine will have a most unique history behind it.   Glad to hear its coming along.   

@KOOLjock1 posted:

Boy I'd love to see her without her post-war “beauty treatment”.  But I doubt I will.

Jon

Someone on another forum brought this up a few weeks back, only for another member to respond that it is indeed a possibility as apparently the drawings to do a prewar rebuild exist. Wonder if there could be made a way to “switch” the pilot between prewar and postwar depending on the directed era of interpretation, similar to that of 2716 with the Southern?

@Conductor Earl posted:

Perhaps it is a blessing that this project was delayed until the technology to map out and redesign the firebox evolved to where it is today. I  recall that twenty plus years ago the fire box was a stumbling block to getting the engine to meet current regulations. It is good to see the extent of the study and the engineering plans to ensure the safety of the boiler and firebox so that the project can move forward.  When completed the engine will have a most unique history behind it.   Glad to hear its coming along.   

I never thought of it this way before and that is a great point.

@KOOLjock1 posted:

Boy I'd love to see her without her post-war “beauty treatment”.  But I doubt I will.

Jon

I'd love to see this as well.

To me, the pre-war appearance reflects the period when the PRR took pride in their equipment by making them aesthetically pleasing instead of utilitarian.

If 1361 is supposed to be a traveling representative of the PRR, then pre-war appearance would be a better representation of the PRR in it's heyday.

For those who want to see the post-war appearance, 3750 isn't changing anytime soon, even after it's pending cosmetic restoration.

@jim sutter posted:

I have two questions.

1. When is it going to run?

2. Where is it going to run?

I agree on both points you make Jim.   I only have one thing to add.

Getter done!

I only caught the last few seconds of our local news channel interviewing Joe DeFrancesco, the executive director of the railroaders museum, about East Broad Top getting involved in some way with the restoration project of the K4. Does anyone here know how their getting involved? I can't find the news clip on the web that I caught a piece of, and it got me wondering if that's where it will eventually be running.

@Dave Zucal posted:

I only caught the last few seconds of our local news channel interviewing Joe DeFrancesco, the executive director of the railroaders museum, about East Broad Top getting involved in some way with the restoration project of the K4. Does anyone here know how their getting involved? I can't find the news clip on the web that I caught a piece of, and it got me wondering if that's where it will eventually be running.

EBT is a narrow gauge line.

rplst8, yes that is true, but they have areas with a third outer rail.

@Dave Zucal posted:

rplst8, yes that is true, but they have areas with a third outer rail.

Dave,

The areas with "Dual Gauge Track" are co-owned/leased/owned (not exactly sure the legal aspect of it) by the Rockhill Trolley Museum that is right next door to EBT.

There is no standard gauge connection to NS trackage so it is highly unlikely that 1361 would ever operate there.

I think the best candidate would be the Everett RR in Hollidaysburg.

Or on the Nittany & Bald Eagle Railroad at Tyrone, Pa.

@KOOLjock1 posted:

Boy I'd love to see her without her post-war “beauty treatment”.  But I doubt I will.

Jon

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I much prefer the brutish cast steel pilot etc look, to their dainty earlier appearance, especially as delivered with piston tail rods.

I also prefer the New York Central’s J3a Hudsons over the various J1 subclasses.

I like late-era, massive steam locomotives. Nothing built before about 1910, does it for me.

I know, “Burn the heretic!”

Brutalism began as an aesthetic choice in the 1940's, and has only escalated since.  This is why most modern architecture is so uninspiring.  Compare an AmShack to Grand Central Terminal for instance... or a classic EMD E or F to a Genesis.

Somehow, with the exception of the Pontiac Aztec... the automotive industry has escaped this trend.

Jon