Question for Jack, HOTWATER , double heading steam

harmonyards posted:

Hey Jack, wondering if I may pick your brain.....I’m fascinated by double heading steam power. Would you mind explaining how this was accomplished by the crews on real steam?....In the world of legacy control, all I have to do is hit a few buttons, and I’m doubleheading....thank you for time, it’s always a thrill to read your replies, and the facts you provide..........Pat

First, remember that those men knew their operating territories/divisions like the back of their hands, no matter whether day or night. Thus, double heading was not all that difficult.

1) The lead locomotive controlled the train air brakes, and the speed of the train. The trailing locomotive/locomotives would have its/their automatic brake valve cut out, and only had control of the independent (driver) air brakes.

2) Even if the "helper" locomotive was added on at the front of the train (much more typical in passenger service), the road engine, and its Engineer would then only be assisting with throttle power.

3) Depending on the grade, which would be the obvious requirement for a helper, and thus the "doubleheader", the second locomotive (actually the road engine) would generally be operated at full throttle, while the lead, or "helper" would carry its throttle in order to control speed over the territory.

There would be no communication between the two, or more, locomotive operating crews, as they would each be fully qualified and totally familiar with their territory, thus knowing "what to do next".

Hot Water posted:

harmonyards posted:

Hey Jack, wondering if I may pick your brain.....I’m fascinated by double heading steam power. Would you mind explaining how this was accomplished by the crews on real steam?....In the world of legacy control, all I have to do is hit a few buttons, and I’m doubleheading....thank you for time, it’s always a thrill to read your replies, and the facts you provide..........Pat

First, remember that those men knew their operating territories/divisions like the back of their hands, no matter whether day or night. Thus, double heading was not all that difficult.

1) The lead locomotive controlled the train air brakes, and the speed of the train. The trailing locomotive/locomotives would have its/their automatic brake valve cut out, and only had control of the independent (driver) air brakes.

2) Even if the "helper" locomotive was added on at the front of the train (much more typical in passenger service), the road engine, and its Engineer would then only be assisting with throttle power.

3) Depending on the grade, which would be the obvious requirement for a helper, and thus the "doubleheader", the second locomotive (actually the road engine) would generally be operated at full throttle, while the lead, or "helper" would carry its throttle in order to control speed over the territory.

There would be no communication between the two, or more, locomotive operating crews, as they would each be fully qualified and totally familiar with their territory, thus knowing "what to do next".

Wow!....thanks Jack!....what’s the purpose of the second locomotive (the road engine) being at full throttle?...was that to insure the power was there to make the pull up the grade?.....Pat

harmonyards posted:

Hot Water posted:

harmonyards posted:

Hey Jack, wondering if I may pick your brain.....I’m fascinated by double heading steam power. Would you mind explaining how this was accomplished by the crews on real steam?....In the world of legacy control, all I have to do is hit a few buttons, and I’m doubleheading....thank you for time, it’s always a thrill to read your replies, and the facts you provide..........Pat

First, remember that those men knew their operating territories/divisions like the back of their hands, no matter whether day or night. Thus, double heading was not all that difficult.

1) The lead locomotive controlled the train air brakes, and the speed of the train. The trailing locomotive/locomotives would have its/their automatic brake valve cut out, and only had control of the independent (driver) air brakes.

2) Even if the "helper" locomotive was added on at the front of the train (much more typical in passenger service), the road engine, and its Engineer would then only be assisting with throttle power.

3) Depending on the grade, which would be the obvious requirement for a helper, and thus the "doubleheader", the second locomotive (actually the road engine) would generally be operated at full throttle, while the lead, or "helper" would carry its throttle in order to control speed over the territory.

There would be no communication between the two, or more, locomotive operating crews, as they would each be fully qualified and totally familiar with their territory, thus knowing "what to do next".

Wow!....thanks Jack!....what’s the purpose of the second locomotive (the road engine) being at full throttle?...was that to insure the power was there to make the pull up the grade?.....Pat

Pretty much, yes. Otherwise there would not have been the requirement for a helper, i.e. doubleheader.

Thanks Jack, I read your replies while having coffee, and sitting next to the fireplace crackling away.....better than the fireside chats with FDR!............Pat

Harmonyards

Railroading in non-waterlevel territory in the late steam era could get pretty interesting. 

One of the big challenges for the Northern Pacific in western Montana was Evaro Hill.  Located west of Missoula it had 2.2% grades but offered a shorter route than the later constructed line along the Clark Fork River.  The NP's heavy Pacifics could only handle 5 heavyweight passenger cars on 2.2% grades without a helper.  The NP was the first railroad to order 4-8-4 Northerns.  They did so to get a locomotive that had a large fire box and enough tractive effort to handle 9 heavyweight passenger cars without a helper.

NP dispatcher Ron Nixon took these photos on Evaro Hill in 1939.  Locomotive 2232, a Q-5 pacific in helper service is leading and road locomotive 2610 is behind with the North Coast Limited.

Nixon Photographed 2610 on the North Coast Limited again in January 1942.  This time she had a Mike as a rear helper.

I can't say for certain why the different helper placement occurred on the same train.  It may have been the case that the 2232 was needed in Missoula and stayed on the point all the way down the hill.  The old Class W Mike likely cut off at Evaro (on the fly no less) and returned to Paradise, Mt. for additional helper or local freight duties.

NP conductor Warren McGee photographed a 15 car NP passenger train here with a Northern as the road locomotive, a Pacific as the head end helper and a Mike pushing.  Communication between the head end a the rear was by whistle signal.

As hot water pointed out, it took an intimate knowledge of your railroad and your fellow railroaders to get the job done safely and on schedule. 

If you are running with Legacy or DCS on a larger layout operating manned helpers can be a realistic train handling challenge.  As with the real thing you have to know your equipment, the railroad and your fellow model railroaders or things can go wrong quickly.

Interesting--thanks.

Here's one for you guys...... whistle signal... one short and one long  0    -------.  ?????No radios back then.

I guess different methods for helper assist up a grade or double-heading for the whole trip

Gregg posted:

Here's one for you guys...... whistle signal... one short and one long  0    -------.  ?????No radios back then.

 

Inspect air brake train line for leak.

 nope. You're on the right track though Steve. Someone should get it shortly . if not I\ll stick the answer up later today .

Gregg posted:

 nope. You're on the right track though Steve. Someone should get it shortly . if not I\ll stick the answer up later today .

Maybe your Canadian rules were different?

Gregg posted:

 nope. You're on the right track though Steve. Someone should get it shortly . if not I\ll stick the answer up later today .

See book pages 18 and 21: Standard Railroad Signals

smd4 posted:

Gregg posted:

 nope. You're on the right track though Steve. Someone should get it shortly . if not I\ll stick the answer up later today .

See book pages 18 and 21: Standard Railroad Signals

 

Thanks for the Link  Steve . Its really old but very interesting especially about markers but that's not the answer I'm looking for.

Hot... The same   rule book applies to the  C&O, TH&B   and NYC.   (1962) We re  not that different.

Gregg posted:

smd4 posted:

Gregg posted:

 nope. You're on the right track though Steve. Someone should get it shortly . if not I\ll stick the answer up later today .

See book pages 18 and 21: Standard Railroad Signals

 

Thanks for the Link  Steve . Its really old but very interesting especially about markers but that's not the answer I'm looking for.

Really?  That sure answered the question for me.

Hot... The same   rule book applies to the  C&O, TH&B   and NYC.   (1962) We re  not that different.

Since this whole thread is about double heading STEAM LOCOMOTIVES, by 1962 all main line steam was gone in the U.S.. Thus, I don't understand this reference.

Here's the  answer I was looking for...

O ----- When doubleheading  Air brakes have failed on leading engine and  engineman on second engine must  at once take control and stop train. . The same signal to be given by the engineman on the second engine as soon as he has control of the brakes

Really?  That sure answered the question for me.

What does that mean??

Gregg posted:

Thanks for the Link  Steve . Its really old but very interesting especially about markers but that's not the answer I'm looking for.

How modern do you want to go? UP Signals

Gregg posted:

Here's the  answer I was looking for...

O ----- When doubleheading  Air brakes have failed on leading engine and  engineman on second engine must  at once take control and stop train. . The same signal to be given by the engineman on the second engine as soon as he has control of the brakes

Really?  That sure answered the question for me.

What does that mean??

It means that what I wrote, and the link I provided, answers your question correctly.

smd4 posted:

Gregg posted:

Here's the  answer I was looking for...

O ----- When doubleheading  Air brakes have failed on leading engine and  engineman on second engine must  at once take control and stop train. . The same signal to be given by the engineman on the second engine as soon as he has control of the brakes

Really?  That sure answered the question for me.

What does that mean??

It means that what I wrote, and the link I provided, answers your question correctly.

It doesn't say anything of the sort that Gregg wrote! Completely different!

Big Jim posted:

smd4 posted:

Gregg posted:

Here's the  answer I was looking for...

O ----- When doubleheading  Air brakes have failed on leading engine and  engineman on second engine must  at once take control and stop train. . The same signal to be given by the engineman on the second engine as soon as he has control of the brakes

Really?  That sure answered the question for me.

What does that mean??

It means that what I wrote, and the link I provided, answers your question correctly.

It doesn't say anything of the sort that Gregg wrote! Completely different!

In response to Hot Water stating "That sure answered the question for me," Gregg wrote "What does that mean??" It's red because he kept the same formatting Hot Water used.

So Gregg apparently didn't know what Hot meant when Hot wrote, "That sure answered the question for me." So, I explained what Hot Water meant to help answer Gregg's question.

See?

Have seen photos of double-headed Pennsy K4 Pacifics running 90+ mph east of St. Louis. Suppose it was just another day at the office for those locomotive crews, but seems a bit intimidating to this arm-chair railroader !!

mark s posted:

Have seen photos of double-headed Pennsy K4 Pacifics running 90+ mph east of St. Louis. Suppose it was just another day at the office for those locomotive crews, but seems a bit intimidating to this arm-chair railroader !!

Mark,

As the passenger trains became longer & heavier, the PRR really had no choice but to double head their K4s locomotives in order to maintain speed and schedule. When the T-1 duplex locomotives went into service, there was no longer a need to double head, as one T-1 could exceed 100 MPH even with those passenger trains.

mark s posted:

Have seen photos of double-headed Pennsy K4 Pacifics running 90+ mph east of St. Louis. Suppose it was just another day at the office for those locomotive crews, but seems a bit intimidating to this arm-chair railroader !!

Thank you Mark! That was the reason I asked Jack in the first place, and he expertly answered the question......Pat

I have a dumb question, when your double heading steam how did the lead engine cut off? Who uncoupled it and how did that engine divert? Did they stop and uncouple at station stops or did they cut off on the fly?  I can't see them cutting off on the fly. 

As trailing unit I could see them cutting off on the fly via the caboose and simply slowing down letting the helper slow to a stop and reversing back down the hill. Actually wondered if they even coupled or would they ever had there knuckles closed, which could  easily be damaged? 

CSX FAN posted:

I have a dumb question, when your double heading steam how did the lead engine cut off?

Generally this depends on the territory. In passenger service, the double header many times went through to the end terminal. On steep mountain grades, the helper engine on the point would be cut-off at the top of the grade, and usually the Brakeman on the train would walk forward in order to make the cut, i.e. pull the pin. The helper would then move int the clear at a siding or wye.

In freight service, the helper would generally be cut-0ff at the top of the grade, and the Head Brakeman would make the cut. The helper then move into the clear at a siding or wye. 

Who uncoupled it and how did that engine divert?

Generally, the Head Brakeman.

Did they stop and uncouple at station stops or did they cut off on the fly? 

Of course they would have to stop! After the headend helper was cut-off, the road engine would then cut-in its brake valve, and regain control of the train.

I can't see them cutting off on the fly. 

Absolutely correct!

As trailing unit

"unit"????  Remember we are talking steam locomotives now, i.e. they are NOT "units"!

I could see them cutting off on the fly via the caboose and simply slowing down letting the helper slow to a stop and reversing back down the hill.

Correct. That's the way the N&W did it for many years.

Actually wondered if they even coupled or had there knuckles closed. 

Of course the knuckles were "closed"! Remember that the helper/pusher engine was pushing VERY HARD against the rear of the train.

harmonyards posted:

Wow!....thanks Jack!....what’s the purpose of the second locomotive (the road engine) being at full throttle?...Pat

That's how the Engineer on the first engine was able to control the speed -- He was the one varying the throttle and controlling the air brakes.

As information when Engineers were called for duty in a double-heading situation they would be called for (as an example) First Engine on Number 4, on duty at 6:30 PM; and Second Engine on Number 4, etc.  If it was a regularly assigned train, the regular Engineer was on the engine next to the train, and the extra board engineer was on the first Engine.  The regular Engineer, having an assigned on-duty time, might not even be called, but, when he arrived at the register room at his assigned on-duty time, he would find out that he was on the second engine.

This has been a very informative thread...thanks to all who have contributed.

I'm  curious about  tail-end crews when trains are pushed or pulled up the grade. After the helper  engine are cut off they usually return to  the terminal lite  . I believe there were either rail road or union rules on how far a engine crew could run  lite with out a  tail-end crew. Anyone know?

 Another question.... I believe lite engines and even caboose hops had to obtain a clearance  at any open train order office whether the board was on or not. Before my time.