Shelf life of a BCR?

I would imagine the same procedure as when it was installed the first time....charge it at no more than 10 volts for about a minute.  Should be good to go after then.  Not an electronics expert, here, but I can't imagine the nature of a BCR is to have a shelf life.

I'm sure others will amend if in error....

KD

I agree with DKDKRD. I've had BCRs in my engines for over tens years without a problem.

Jim Brenner,

    I am a big advocate of BCR's in reality the new P3 engines have a form of BCR built right into them, and all most all my P2 Engines have been upgraded with them.  

When I take an Engine that has been stored away for a long period of time, I simply put the Engine on my powered Tracks for 5 minutes, which is probably over kill for activating the BCR, after 5 minutes I then start the Engine.   

Frank Hare put a BCR in my 263E before it left the Iron Horse Hobby Shop the day it was received and I picked it up.  I can't remember just how many year ago that was, over 17 for sure and the BCR has never failed and the Gray 263E is now on the tracks most all the time, in our new Train Room.

I have never had a BCR fail, they may however, I just have never had it happen.

PCRR/Dave

Actually, capacitors, including supercaps, do have a shelf life, but stored in a discharged state, that can be many years, probably several decades.  Storage at higher temperatures will accelerate the degradation of any capacitor.

Thanks to all. I'm glad I asked and I appreciate the responses.

Picking up on Dave's (PCRR) comment...  I have a DAP Big Boy (PS-1) from the late 90's.  I'm the original owner.  I had never run it (Really too big for the layout, as it is today).  About 2 years ago I decided to 'check it out'.  So, before I fired it up, I replaced the original battery with a BCR.  Charged it for a minute.  Returned the throttle to zero.  Started it up again, and...

Perfect.  Simply perfect.

I have BCR's in all my PS-1 engines (about a dozen), and although they seldom are operated, I'm confident that a one-minute charge will have them ready to hit the high iron.

KD

KD,

   IMO BRC's are a mandatory upgrade for any P1 Engines.  Smart move on your part to install them.

PCRR/Dave

Capacitance circuitry, like that currently employed in PS-3 engines, should have been incorporated from the get-go by both Lionel and MTH! Truly, one of the major design shortcomings with the advent of advanced sound and control systems! Batteries are a PITA, especially when they are difficult to access when they require changing! Been there, done that!  :-(

The cost of a BCR per day...over a year is about 8 cents.  Two years it's down to 4 cents a day, etc.

Not a bad deal when considering all the "fooling-around" with batteries i.e. replacing (removing the shell), and recharging (sitting on the track for hours)!

Just think about TMCC/Legacy stuff, those batteries are not rechargeable, so they last even less time before a replacement is needed.  A perfect solution to TMCC batteries is my YLB - RailSounds Battery Replacement, it's the BCR equivelent for TMCC/Legacy RailSounds equipped locomotives.  It has the added benefit that it will never leak and damage things in the locomotive or tender.

Pardon the question, what does BCR stand for and what does it look like?  I understand what a capacitor is and does but not familiar with this application. Is it in module form that fits where the original battery is? 

I have an MTH 30-1139-1 49er with Protosound, (probably PS1 as there is no number shown) which I just put into use. It runs well and seems to have no problems but I plan to have it for a long time, should I install a BCR now? 

Tomco posted:

Pardon the question, what does BCR stand for and what does it look like?  I understand what a capacitor is and does but not familiar with this application. Is it in module form that fits where the original battery is? 

I have an MTH 30-1139-1 49er with Protosound, (probably PS1 as there is no number shown) which I just put into use. It runs well and seems to have no problems but I plan to have it for a long time, should I install a BCR now? 

https://www.jandwelectronics.com/

It's a 20 year old Proto Sound 1 Locomotive and if it's the original battery, yes replace it.

Thanks, I read your site. Its on the todo list. 

The REAL question is, with all their otherwise technical innovations and expertise, WHY didn't Lionel and MTH utilize capacitance circuits sooner? It was NOT a new concept at the time TMCC was developed or when PS-1 was introduced.

Tomco posted:

Thanks, I read your site. Its on the todo list. 

It's not my site but just want to shave the information with you.

You can order them in ebay and other online sources. Maybe someone here in the forum sells them.

Whats the life expectancy of a normal "9volt " nimh battery or a "9volt" lithium battery?

TOMCO,

   IMO a BCR for P1 Engines is a mandatory upgrade.

PCRR/Dave

Gentlemen here is the BCR I use for my P2 and at one time also for my long gone P1 Engines.  I just replaced the Battery in my P2 #1 NASA Switcher with one this last week.  Never had one wear out yet.

It is very cool the way they enclosed the capacitance circuit in a 9 volt battery module! Just "plug 'n play"!

aussteve posted:

Whats the life expectancy of a normal "9volt " nimh battery or a "9volt" lithium battery?

I have nimh batteries that I bought at Harbor Freight about 4 years ago in my remotes and they hold there charge fine. It depends on how much I run trains when I have to charge them. I have at least 100 BCRs up to about 11 years old when the first came out and never had any problems with them. I was skeptical when J&W first came out with them.

I am new to using these.  I have one in a ps2 engine and was not able to assign the engine a new id and needed to continually add it to the remote, even after running the engine for several minutes.  

Once I put in a rechargeable from MTH, the id number saved with no issue.  

How am I using this wrong?  Also, why is there a requirement to charge it a 10v before starting the engine?  I thought capacitors in this application would charge instantly at any voltage they were rated for in normal train voltage range (18V)?

Hump Yard Mike, The BCR is bad. If it's from J and W, they will replace it. 

I do not use them.    For those who do, I wish them all good luck.   I have had many come my way from DCS upgrades.  I sold a few to have one bite me badly and cost me money.  I now batch them up and properly dispose  them with old white batteries.  In the last year I have seen more green batteries show up in PS-1 engines.

I know the BCR is very popular and folks should buy new ones and stay clear of anything with serious age on it.   It is a good idea to put the date installed with a Sharpie. 

I have to ask, why don't you use them? thanks

"I have to ask, why don't you use them? thanks"

I don't think Marty likes to be bitten.

I had one fail and take out a board on my own GG-1.    I sold several in batches and one guy lost a board and made things painful for me.  It cost me money to make things right for him.    I have seen engines come to me with blown boards that had the old pink BCR in them.  I am only talking small numbers on my end and would not tell anyone not to use them.  I do tell people to buy a new one if you are uncertain.

Gene, the BCR has been around from the 90s.  The BCR I talk about is for the 8.4V system.  This covers PS1 and early PS2 boards.  

FWIW, the official stand MTH takes on the BCR is NEUTRAL.   Not for and not against.

Art,

The REAL question is, with all their otherwise technical innovations and expertise, WHY didn't Lionel and MTH utilize capacitance circuits sooner? It was NOT a new concept at the time TMCC was developed or when PS-1 was introduced.

Eighteen years ago, the technology may not have been cost-effective or it may have been unproven for the manufacturer's products. Get over it, already. Enjoy the fact that MTH now uses the technology with PS3.

MTH listened to people.   Buy what you want to operate your trains.  

Barry, back in the Protosound days, the BCR was the hot hand.  They were also new.  I have known people who still have those old units handy and use them in PS2 5V boards.   

I hear you Marty and Barry regarding the early BCR's. Just saying, LGB successfully employed capacitance circuitry some twenty years ago with their analog activated digital sound systems. My Alpine Classic crocodile still works fine! I do not believe it was cost ineffective to employ capacitors, which are very common and inexpensive electrical  components.

Good point Art.

Good point Art.

I have converted all of my ps2 locos to supercaps, because my stable of locos has grown so large that some may sit for months without use. Having said that, if I used locos regularly I would prefer batteries, which regularly lasted me 10+ years.

Marty, please refresh my memory.  How did white batteries & bad BCRs blow boards?  Short the charge circuits?

"Capacitance circuitry, like that currently employed in PS-3 engines, should have been incorporated from the get-go by both Lionel and MTH! "

None of Lionel's TMCC or Legacy (or LC/LC+) locos absolutely require batteries for operation, so that's no doubt the reason.  The battery is only necessary, in my experience, if in conventional mode with TMCC/Legacy, the sound/power drops out on track sections with poor conductivity;  the battery's presence prevents that dropout in conventional mode, but isn't necessary for most command mode situations.  

I've yet to put a battery in a Lionel TMCC/Legacy loco from the 1990s to present,  as I generally operate them in command mode. The only Lionel locomotive since the postwar period that came with a battery, I believe, was the Century Club GG1, which was sufficiently difficult to open up that Lionel thought it best to include it for the conventional operators.  It was never essential for command users.

MTH PS1 and PS2 locos with QSI designed boards were dependent to varying extents on a charged battery for basic locomotive functionality (or so I was told--never had the problem personally) hence the replacement in PS3 with a capacitor source of current.  There were some (?PS1) locos which, when operated without a charged battery, scrambled the firmware,  which required resetting with a programming device.

When did supercaps become available at reasonable prices and sizes?

Bob, I could not tell you prices on them.  I do know what you do is the high end way of doing things using top shelf parts.

I have these in two PS2 engines with absolutely no issues.

Capacitors and resistors, even heat resistant ones, are relatively common and inexpensive electronic components. When I was a teen I once designed a speaker crossover network using oil filled capacitors, which were quite large and expensive!

John H posted:

I have these in two PS2 engines with absolutely no issues.

Wow, even with shipping costs added this is vastly cheaper than purchasing BRC's or MTH batteries. Where and how are these wired into / installed into PS 2 engines? Would they also work for PS1 engines?

They just connect positive to positive and negative to negative at the battery connection, but only for 3 volt PS2. More info

That is what RJR has been using for a long time with great luck.