Smoke Problems -- 682 Turbine

Have you checked the piston is moving up and down to create the puff?

 

MIKE

You don't have to use pills for a "pill type" element. They work great with liquid smoke and the smoke unit doesn't clog up with the pill wax. Also, check to make sure that the breather hole is not blocked. 

As Mike mentioned check the piston and make sure it is functioning. The residue fom the smoke pellets will clog the small hole in the smoke chamber, resulting in little or no smoke. Also check the ground. If I recall the ground is made by the metal cap and  the screw holding the smoke unit on the frame.

 

The old pellets should work, but the replacement diode smoke units that use liquid smoke work much better than the old toster type heating elements used in Lione post war steam locomotives.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Richard Gonzales

Ah...I see that the small hole in the center of the smoke unit housing is completely clogged to the top with pellet residue. How far down do I dig with a pin to clean it? Should it be clear all the way to the bottom? I don't want to damage anything by digging with this clothespin...

Take the cap off and dismantle the smoke unit (remove it from the bracket). Clean out the bowl where the smoke element is located as well as the hole and piston unit. That pill wax gets on everything. Once it's all clean, repack the bowl (fiberglass pink insulation works real well) and reassemble. At some point you might want to get a spring for the piston...they tend to work better when you put one in there. Those turbines are good smokers because the wheels are small and that creates lots of "puffing". Good luck

Very confusing. I loosened the slot-head screw that secures the smoke unit to the chassis, and I removed the unit for cleaning. I see that it's completely solid on the bottom of the bowl, so I'm not quite sure what function the "piston" on the bottom serves. ANyway, I cleaned all the gunk that had accumulated between the two bowls, and the breather tube is now completely clear. I put the train on the track, started it up, and...still no smoke, save for the very, very faint hint of it every few minutes. The element is brand new; I'm really not sure what else there is to clean and/or adjust. Odd.

Run the engine without the boiler shell and watch to  see if the smoke unit piston is going up and down. If the pills melt then your getting power to it.Did you repack the bowl with isulation? 

Hi Rob--

The pill is melting and the piston is moving, but I can't grasp what the piston has to do with the smoke. The smoke unit is essentially two bowls; the top facing upward, and the bottom facing down. From what I see, the downward-facing bowl has no holes in it and no connection to the top bowl. What purpose does the piston moving underneath the bottom bowl thus serve?

the bottom bowl should have a hole in it that passes up into the top bowl near the top lid. That is where the air comes from that forces smoke out of the top.

With most pill elements, the ground is a strip of metal that is supposed to bend and get pinched between the cap and bowl. Squeezing down on the cap makes sure that the ground strip is secured. That bottom bowl rests on a cam lever which pushes it up and forces air into that breather hole. If it's working right, you should see that bottom bowl acting like a piston going up into the top one. Make sure that element is getting hot.  Even if the piston isn't working , you should see thick white smoke looking down into the stack and it will spill over the top. If that's not happening, your connections are bad or the element is bad (not likely if it's new). 

Your 682 is considered a desirable engine!

 

You already know how to remove the smoke unit from the engine.

Remove the smoke unit. There should be a piston that goes up and down in the cylinder that is attached to the smoke unit.

Is it there?

Sometimes they are pushed up so far, and stuck to the cylinder, that they look like they are fixed in place.

Remove the piston (it should slide out)

Look into the cylinder. There should be a small hole in the top, offset to one side. Find a drill bit that fits into the hole (don't want to enlarge it) and clean out the hole.

Continue up into the smoke pot (diecast chamber where the smoke element resides) until it touches the cover (don't drill through).  I do this type of work with a pin vise.

I will risk repeating myself: You don't want to enlarge any holes or create any new ones.

 

Before reassembling the smoke unit, wipe out the inside of the cylinder. DO NOT USE ANY WET LUBRICANTS. Mineral spirits on a rag would be OK to clean it. Also wipe off the outside of the piston. If you have access to a 2026-44 smoke spring, now is the time to drop it into the cylinder before installing the piston.

 

DO NOT CONTINUE TO ADD MORE PELLETS. If you put in too many pellets, the smoke unit will not get hot enough, and it may clog again.,

 

Here is a link to the Lionel service manual pages on smoke generators:

 

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=629

If you just step back for a minute and consider that "piston", you'll see it's quite the ingenious mechanism. The bottom bowl sits on a cam lever that goes up and down in synchrony with the wheels. When it goes up, it compresses the air against the upper bowl. The compressed air goes up into that breather hole and pushes the smoke around the element out the stack. Sometimes the bottom bowl hangs up a little bit inside the upper bowl. You can dremel the bottom bowl a bit or sandpaper it with very fine paper to reduce the friction. It falls back down by gravity. The spring I mentioned, goes between the two bowls and helps gravity drop it down.  The element has only two connections...the ground strip and the "hot" wire. I'm thinking one of those isn't secured.

As some of the guys have said, the piston forces the air stream up and into the smoke chamber. be sure the piston is dropping down at the end of each puff cycle, and not getting stuck in the lower piston chamber. There is a hole there too, check that is not clogged with molten smoke pellets. Run a small drill bit or rod completely thru the top and lower chambers. And be sure there is no smoke material melted between the two, this has to be clear so the piston can draw air in at the downward stroke. Also as a note, some reproduction heaters are wound with too much wire and get hot enough to only melt the pellet, not vaporize it. you may want to take 2 turns of wire off and wrap it around the ground lug.

And also consider this.......you're working on a Postwar engine. They are brutes. It's not likely you're going to break anything and if you do.....you can get almost any part for all the Postwar stuff. I wish we could say that with modern trains. Getting parts is a challenge and often, impossible.

quote:

Also as a note, some reproduction heaters are wound with too much wire and get hot enough to only melt the pellet, not vaporize it. you may want to take 2 turns of wire off and wrap it around the ground lug.

 

I still have some replacement heaters that were purchased from Madison Hardware in NYC. They have the right length of wire (correct number of turns) but the wrong gauge was used, so they have too much resistance. I rewind them with the correct wire before using them.

Thanks again for all of your helpful replies. I can see how this would be tedious for all of you, and I appreciate your kind efforts to assist me with this problem.

 

The new element gets hot, but not so hot that I can't touch it. Comparing the new element to the original, the new one has significantly fewer windings; perhaps half as many. Someone above mentioned that it's not a good idea to use too many pellets. I've now melted (wasted) 4 or 5 trying to test it out. Not sure where to go from here.

 

quote:

(Though it is a straight shot from one to the other, there is nothing connecting the bottom hole to the breather element hole.) 

 

This is correct.

Run the engine with the shell removed. There should be a lever pushing the piston up and down. You should be able to see the piston rise and fall (and perhaps make a clanking sound.)

Do you have access to an ohm meter? I will go and look up the resistance range for a good smoke unit.

According to my notes 14 to 16 ohms is correct for a healthy smoke element.

 

For those that are interested, the proper gauge wire is 34 gauge, .0063 inches diameter, 16.38 ohms per foot.

It has to be the element. Easy swap out. If you touched a functioning (good) element, you'd have branded your finger. They get very hot. 

The best fix is retro fit the pill unit with a liquid kit.

 

 

It's really easy to do.  Here's a link to the instructions. http://www.ttender.com/partpho...t%20Instructions.txt

I agree with Roger, if you are able to touch the element, it isn't getting hot enough.

Check the resistance if you can. 

 

Some folks are quite happy using liquid smoke, either with a standard pill type smoke unit or after installing a conversion kit.
I prefer the smell of the pellets. And I'd rather deal with some pellet dust, as opposed to the oil vapors of smoke fluid.  

C.W.

Thanks for posting the specs on the ni-chrome wire. Good stuff.

 

We all remember when we were newbies to this hobby and how to fix these things was a big mystery. And then there was the fear factor. I remember early on, I called Lionel for a problem with a 736 engine. This was a number of years ago when they still had a few old salts who knew anything about PW. I asked him.....well, if I mess with that side rod adjustment, do I run the risk of breaking anything? His response was....."the only way you're going to break that engine is to carry it up to the roof of a 10 story building and drop it off. And even then.....you'll probably just bend it".

I've had a revelation.

 

It seems that I have to throttle the transformer (LW) up to 20v in neutral for 15 or so seconds, and then the engine will begin to smoke. Once I do that and then run it forward, nice plumes of smoke will billow from the smokestack for a few seconds. It appears that the voltage level is directly proportional to the volume of smoke produced. Mine is a modest layout (it's #5 in the 110 trestle kit instructions) on a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood, so there won't be much opportunity to run these wide open unless I want to leave locomotive impressions in the hardwood floors below.

 

It is a pretty ingenious system, and I thank you all for your patience & your advice.

you have two take more windings of off that smoke unit.  it is not getting hot enough.  also you can use liquid smoke fluid with a post war smoke element.  there should be only 5 windings on that smoke unit.  make shure your smoke unint lining is new also.  any questions email me at jvendlinger@gmail.com

You can add more cars to get the engine running at higher voltage.

And to expand just a little on the last suggestion, try some postwar cars behind if you've got 'em, or a few more modern ones, maybe with a little weight added. Postwar cars have a little more rolling resistance then the modern ones. The smoke unit was designed with the load and resulting higer voltage in mind. Modern, easy-rolling trains make for less work for the loco and lower voltage applied to the smoke unit.

Thanks for the suggestion; I only have the older (50s) cars anyhow. I suppose one could run however many cars he wanted, but is 5-6 behind the locomotive standard? You mention that more cars cause rolling resistance; will this help slow the locomotive through the downward trestled grades on my under-construction 4' x 8' layout?

There isn't much you can do to slow down a train (other than lower the voltage) on the downgrade created by a trestle set.

 

Regarding your smoke unit: Several folks have suggested removing a winding or two. If you go that route, try removing one at a time. Check the resistance. You don't want to go much below 16 ohms. If the resistance is too low, the smoke unit can consume excessive power, and slow down the train. The element life will also be shortened.

 

I checked one of the parts guys. He lists his replacement smoke elements as being 18 ohms. That might be OK for engines pulling long trains, but for a typical train set, I think that is too high,

 

If you want to try rewinding an element, there are many listing on Ebay for the correct wire. I like the one linked below because it appears to come on a spool. 100 feet would do around 100 smoke elements, probably a couple of lifetime supplies.

 

Ask for tips before trying a rewind

 

 

I don't recommend converting to the liquid smoke unit because you will have to keep it wet with smoke fluid all the time or risk burning it out.  That means your engine will be smoking every time you use it and you will need to buy liquid smoke.
Rob

 

quote:

I do read 16Ω of resistance on the smoke element

 

Then your smoke element is properly wound. I would not remove any turns.

The output may be diminished because you put so many pellets in at once.

If this is the case, it will smoke better as you run it and use up the pellets.

The Lionel instructions warned not to add another pellet until you are certain that what was in there is used up. When the unit cools the smoke material hardens and will be there for the next time you run the engine. So don't automatically put in a pellet at the beginning of an operating session.

No offense intended, but you described a smoke unit that was rather clogged up, so too many pellets were used in the past.

Hello--

No offense taken; I understand. This locomotive had been sitting since the late 1970s, and the smoke unit was likely (over)stuffed with pellets by my brothers and me when we were too little to have known any better...

Being that you have a 682 and a 6557 (both desirable pieces), and had a ZW transformer, it sounds like you have a very nice set. I hope you won't mind my asking, what else do you have from your childhood?

This sounds like the same behavior on todays engines.

Is there a "reduce the voltage to the motor solution" on these engines?

 

My 2011 Berk, Jr. wouldn't smoke well until around 7 volts or higher, but it ran way too fast. Put some voltage reduction to the motor only ( thanks to some forum members) and got good puffs at reasonable running speeds.

Ok, I found the reference from Dale H. here: Eliminating Jack Rabbit Starts.

The side benefit of this is the lights, smoke unit and e-unit get full track voltage.

I cannot speak for Dale, but that solution looks to be geared more towards modern era can motored engines. The original poster did not write that he had problems with his e-unit or lights. Being somewhat familar with turbines, I doubt that he would.

 

Being that his smoke unit measures 16 ohms, it should be working properly. The engine should smoke properly when it is pulling it's consist of postwar cars. As I wrote earlier, the smoke output may increase as those four pellets are consumed.

 

If he has to have more smoke, an answer would be to remove one turn of wire from the smoke unit.  That written, I would not do it.

 

 

CW,

Dale H. has another post(which I did not link for simplicity), where this works for the AC motors also.

Note that he mentioned that he already tested the smoke unit in neutral at higher voltages, which produced more smoke. So, the smoke unit is fine.

 

I can see where a longer train(more weight, more volts needed would work) also.

 

Just offering some options other than modifying the smoke unit.

Something doesn't seem right with this. I've got one of those engines and it smokes like a champ....even at low voltages because the wheel diameter on them is small so that the piston produces more puffs per cycle. I would definitely try some liquid smoke or replace the element.    In fact, I've got a bunch of PW engines and it's my best smoke producer.

My engine seems to smoke well only at the higher voltages, which I'm ok with. The element is brand new and reads 16Ω so it *should* be ok, but who knows with this Chinese stuff.

 

CW, I only have these trains and some audio equipment from my grandfather's company. I don't know why I let the trains sit for so long; they're fun.

quote:

Note that he mentioned that he already tested the smoke unit in neutral at higher voltages, which produced more smoke. So, the smoke unit is fine.

 

Smoking at high voltage really doesn't mean the smoke unit is fine. The smoke units were designed to smoke at the operating voltage of the engines, which is well below 20 volts. The original poster says the resistance of the smoke unit is correct, so that should not be an issue, although with reproduction parts, who knows! As I have already written, putting in four pellets in short order may have just been too much. If so, the engine will smoke better as the pellets are consumed.

IMHO, adding any smoke material at this point would be counter productive (so long as it is smoking at 20 volts).

All this is assuming that the piston hole is clear and that the piston is moving up and down properly.

 

Thank you for the information on Dale's solution. I still think that a Postwar "O" gauge engine should not need to have the voltage to the motor reduced, but I do have some 027 locomotives that could use some voltage adjustment to get their 2-position e-units to cycle before the engine starts moving.