Sound suppression

HI John,

 

Sounds like a nice size layout in the plans.

 

Just a few thoughts.  You may want to look at OSB or plywood.  Typically particle board is not as strong as the other options.  OSB is less costly than plywood, however good plywood canlt be beat.

 

On sound deadening foam is kind of a mis-nomer.  The rigid foam available for insulation does not deaden sound, in some cases it actually amplify's it.  A good sound stopping material is homasote, or other products such as quiet brace, or other use a celtex.  These come in 4x8 sheets and vary in availability around the country.  They are typically 1/2" thick and are a sort of compressed paper/fiber.

 

Foam is a good material for creating structure of mountains  and other features in the landscape, but IMHO is not very good for sound deadening.

 

Just my opinion here, lots of talented folks on the forum with suggestion that will help you decide what is right for you.

A pro layout builder once told me that to deaden sound, put sound dampening materials on the ceiling.  And carpeting on the floor...

I would also reccomend a skirt around the outside of the benchwork. It will help with sound reduction too.

I don't know about GarGraves, but foam does not deaden sound with RealTrax, it acts as a resonator and is louder than RealTrax directly on plywood, at least it is for me. That could be solely because of the hollow plastic roadbed, but I would do some testing before going too far. I am going to test foam and carpet on my temporary layout, but I am switching to ScaleTrax without the built-in roadbed and will use the tried and true plywood, foam, and cork on my permanent layout. I didn't want to lay cork, but unless I find the ScaleTrax on foam is quiet enough, cork it is. I am also going to consider the desert themed carpet Woodland Scenics is supposed to be releasing this year. I haven't decided yet just how much scenery work I want to do and my layout might turn out to be a combination of carpet on the base and other stuff on the elevations.

From a practical pov, I don't like the idea of using particle board, especially if any scenery will involve moisture, like plaster, or weight, like heavy plaster mountains. . It's probably cheaper than OSB or plywood, but both OSB and plywood will perform much better over time.

John;

I too would avoid particle board, bad juju in the low strength there. You will end up adding so much bracing underneath to eliminate sags that it will cost more in the long run. That stuff will sag of no more than it's own weight after a couple years.

2x4's are overkill for support but readily available, I"m using them for legs myself.

I use 1x4's for bracing and L girders, it's plenty strong. Also, go to Lowes, not Home Depot for better wood. Or a local lumberyard for even better wood.

 

Cork under track is good for a little sound reduction as well.

 

Gargraves and Ross is a well spoken of combo on the forum. I'm using ScaleTrax and Ross. I prefer the smaller proper shaped rails of ScaleTrax and the Ross rails are a very near match except in color. ScaleTrax is similar to Gargraves in rail shape but the rails are solid.

 

A couple years back a forum member did some testing with actual sound measuring equipment. From what I remember:

Foam under track is bad, no help or actually louder.

A Cookie cutter layout is much better than tabletop plywood, the top acts as a speaker cone / drumhead.

Homasote is good, especially if done cookie cutter style under track.

Celotex Soundstop is even better, it is designed to muffle sound.

Quietbrace was not tested as I recall but others have mentioned it works well.

 

Odd thing he found; Stuff blocks of pillow foam inside the boxcars, ect. The plastic box of the car resonates and acts as a speaker as well. The foam acts to stop the vibration in the car and works very well.

Naturally you can't do this in passenger cars with clear windows, but a thin layer of foam in the roof helps.

Gondolas and hoppers with loads also benefit from a foam insert.

 

Hope this helps

That's some good info for those of us who are new or returning after a long absence. I haven't bought the DCS book or received my Black Diamond videos yet, but one problem I've had with recommended instructions in the past is the lack of reasons for choosing a method or comparisons with other methods. While I trust the experts, there are just too many with alternative methods. I'm sure they all work, but I'm sure some are better/cheaper/easier depending on the situation. Heck, just choosing track today is a major decision and once you choose, you're almost "priced in" after the first purchase. I hate asking all these questions, but I'm just not comfortable with one opinion. For example, my LHS doesn't like ScaleTrax and that leaves me wondering if there is something wrong with it or if it's just not as profitable or something else.

Dave;

When Scaletrax first came out some folks did not like it and there were availability issues.

You do need to be careful in connecting the sections, it is not robust like RealTrax or Fastrack.

A decent pair of small pliers helps a lot to snap the sections together.

For a look at it, check out www.toytrainsontracks.com

Rich has some clips from his DVD's there to give you a hint. The Videos are awesome. I have the first two.

I can't imagine it being worse than N or HO. At any rate, I'm not opposed to buying tools to make things easier and I already have quite a few regular tools from my earlier scale endeavors. I am looking forward to getting the videos, they were shipped last night via USPS and should be here before we leave. After watching some Woodland Scenics videos on scenery, I'm even looking forward to learning that too now and am rethinking the approach to my temporary layout. Rather than building a 2nd large section, I'm thinking of adding modules that will eventually go in my bedroom layout. Once I upgrade RR-Track for ScaleTrax, I think I'll be ready to put the ideas together. The recent discussion about overhanging landscaping and buildings really focused some of my ideas for dealing with limited space and doing something more than just a wall mural and faux-fronts.

ChessieFan72, have you found that roadbed to be too soft that your track moves up/down as trains pass over? Or do you place it on a 2nd roadbed of cork? Someone in another thread mentioned this being a problem when used alone. My RealTrax does that in sections when placed on a table without being attached.

Particle board is dangerous stuff, IMO. It fails when it gets wet (spilled coffee or soft drink) and it breaks without warning. I wouldn't use it for anything.

DoubleDAZ, I was not watching the roadbed when I was running my experiment as I was focusing on the sound. I laid out straight track 60+ inches in length. Half of the track was on the roadbed and the other half was on bare door. As I had not secured the roadbed, I would have expected some movement. When I return home tonight, I'll shoot some video.

I'm going with Hobby Innovations Flexibed for this iteration of the layout. It's vinyl and easy to cut and bend. I tested a piece of rolling stock on the Ross track directly on the OSB and then on the Flexibed. The sound was reduced considerably and it changed the frequency by reducing some of the highs. In the previous layout I used their Vinylbed which is reconstituted granular vinyl particles. It too worked well, but the Flexibed product seems to be easier to work with. I went from 3/8" thick to 1/4" so it exactly matches the preformed Rossbed roadbed that is custom designed for all of their switches. The Rossbed is low-density polyurethane and is light beige. I'm gong to paint it background gray before installation. The Flexibed is already a neutral gray color. All the track is going to be painted and ballasted.

Please don't go through any trouble on my account, I'm just curious. If track isn't secured at enough points with screws, ballast, etc., I expect some up/down movement as trains move through, especially with track like RealTrax that includes plastic roadbeds. The indication was that didn't happen with cork underneath, but it doesn't seem like one should need 2 roadbeds. I don't see others doing that, but then all I see is ballasted cork.

DoubleDAZ,

 

It's not trouble at all, and I'm sure many others would be interested in a video of the product. I just got home for the day, but I'll try to burn a little midnight oil and shoot some vid. I have a stash of AtlasO and and Lionel tubular, but I do not have any RealTrax. 

 

My hypothesis is that either the RealTrax base is wider than the Woodland Scenics track-bed and so the plastic roadbed of the realtrax sinks down over the track-bed as a train passes over, or that the cork roadbed, which is sturdier, is not as susceptable to undulations in the tabletop.

 

Here's the video I had mentioned previously:

 

John: My layout is 20x20 and I used 7/16 OSB covered with Homosote and built the entire structure out of 2x3's and it has been up for 15 years with no problems. I am a 300 pd guy and get on top of it with no problems of sagging. I braced it every 4 feet and it is 40 inches off the floor. Some day I may get more than track on it. Actually just took it all apart and converted my Lionel tin plate track to Gargraves and added a 10x8 section for a transfer table and turn table.

Wow! That's a pretty impressive display of the difference in sound levels, Stewart. I'm going to have to try a roll of that at some point.

When I mentioned RealTrax, I was talking about it without added roadbed. Because it's plastic, it's not completely flat when laid on a flat surface. It seems to "bunch" in places and gets pressed flat as trains pass over. Maybe that's because my tracks are not quite fitted at all connections, though I've just got a simple 6x8 oval at the moment and it's not tacked down yet. I noticed in the video they make a point of ensuring a smooth layer of glue, etc. I assume this means if you pull it tight in one area and leave it loose in another, you can end up with this undulating scenario.

I used that on this and i like it

Dave,

 

I think I understand now...

 

If the RealTrax is bowing as trains run over it and you don't have roadbed under it, the solution, as you surmised, would be to secure the track pieces to the tabletop. If you still encounter bowing, then the problem would lie in either the track, tabletop, or both. It could be that as the plastic roadbed has shrank or warped to some degree. Also, the table top could have small imperfections, and a skimming of drywall plaster might help.

 

As you noted, the layer of glue applied for the WS roadbed would need to be smoothed out. I have not glued any roadbed yet, but it feels light enough that it would sit on top of a bead of glue. I will be adding a step not in the video by going over the roadbed with a roller which should help smooth the glue underneath. I also agree that loose roadbed would lead to undulations.

 

When I was researching WS roadbed, I came across a webpage where a modeler used it to line the inside of FasTrack to help reduce noise. This might also be helpful.

 

On a side note, Dave, were you in ATC at Eglin AFB? You look like an individual I worked with. 

As others have pointed out, the rigid foam board is not a good sound deadener at all, it is not acoustically rated and for good reason. Based on my knowledge of acoustics,most of which is empirical (i.e trial and error), some thoughts:

 

-Don't use foam

-If you can, build open grid work type of benchwork, where the trains run on a plywood/homasote kind of composite. The tabletop as someone else surmised is a major vibrating surface, that amplifies the sound, like a drumhead. 

 

Even if you build a solid table, use homasote or something similar.Drop ceiling tiles, if you can get them cheap enough, (like a friend of mine did when a local home warehouse place had flood damage and they had tiles that were spotted/dirty looking, but perfectly strong, got a lot of them for some ridiculous price, since they would probably have thrown them out) can work. My dad had picked up a bunch a store was throwing out, and I used them on my layout, which was plywood tabletop/tubular track, no roadbed, and it helped a lot. 

 

-Isolate the benchwork from its supports. Rubber feet under the legs will work, carpeting is good. Anything that can transmit vibrations to another surface will cause noise, rubber feet with carpeting over a hardwood surface is great. If you mount the railroad into the walls, Have some rubber material between the edge of the tabletop/frame and the wall (not perfect, the screws will transmit some vibration, but a lot less then screws and the in contact length of the frame/tabletop.

 

-When putting the track down, don't nail it where the screws/nails get to the tabletop, go only as far as the roadbed or underlying homosote or whatever. When you nail the track into the tabletop, it is transmitting vibrations to the table surface. Glue the homosote to the underlying tabletop, and if you use roadbed glue it to the underlayment, so there are no nails there, then either glue the track to the roadbed (if you use it), or use nails that go only into the roadbed and/or underlayment.

 

-You can put rubber sound deadening material (available at auto parts stores, it isn't that expensive) under the roadbed or if using homosote only, under the track on top of the homosote. It is usually self stick, so you won't have to do much. If you are going to ballast the tracks, then this may be an option even if you don't use roadbed.

 

-If your train room has an open ceiling, think about either putting a tile ceiling up, or doing what a friend of mine did, hung up cloth as a kind of ceiling and painted it black. It helps absorb the sound, too versus an open ceiling. 

 

The other thing you can do to deaden the sound is have a white noise generator, like an air conditioner, or an air cleaner, or maybe even a white noise generator, it helps cancel out certain frequencies of sound and may make it a more pleasant experience, if the noise bothers you. 

 

Just my thougts based on my experiences.

Whatever you use, don't screw the track down through the roadbed. The screws carry the sound directly to the hard material below like the bridge on a guitar or violin. When possible, glue the track to the roadbed and the roadbed to the substrate.

I am using Scaletrax on cork too.  I have done only some ballasting, but in one area theballast  extends over the sides of the cork by only and eighth inch or so and wow the noise transmits right through to the plywood and it is a dramatic change in volume there versus the unbalasted track, which is glued to cork, which is glued to the plywood.  I bought some double sided foam tape and am going to put that along side the cork to try to avoid this.

Stewart, it sounds like you understand the issues. My table is temporary, so I'm going to find some close-out carpet squares or something because I don't want to permanently attach the RealTrax. However, my permanent layout, is going to be cookie-cutter style with plywood, homasote (maybe), cork (or WS) and ScaleTrax. Foam will be used for scenery, though I'm still going to test foam in place of the homasote. Mine might be noisy because there is no plywood and my underlying grid act as speakers.,

I've only been TDY to Eglin for a week or so back in the late 80s, so it wasn't me.

Jeff, that is interesting, but it does make some sense. I haven't decided yet if I'll ballast, but I'm making a note.

I'm using Fastrack for my 15X28 layout.  I'm still in the track tweeking stage of layout building.  I have both loops layed out and have a couple crossovers in place.  Still have plans to install another crossover and raise the track so the trains can run through the planned tunnel section.  I test ran one MTH diesel pulling two cars.  I really didn't notice much track noise over the built in engin sounds.  Once I get the inclines in place and the benchwork finalized I will test the noise levels.  I found a fabric outlet in PA that sells the type of carpet you find in the truck lining of your car.  It's gray in color, but with a little flocking and glue it might blend in nicely.  I bought a couple yards to try out when I get to that stage.  The outlet also had some felt like material that was sticky one one side.  I picked up a couple sheets and thought I could peal off the backing and stick the track on it and trim pff the excess.  I'll let you know when I try it. 

 

Jim Miller

Jim, is your layout a tabletop or cookie cutter style? Plywood base?

My layout base is 3/4" plywood covered with 1" green foam.  The plywood was purchased at a local Builders Surplus Store for $11.00.  Half the cost of 1/2" plywood from the big box lumber yards.  The green foam comes from Lowes.  Thats the brand the local stores carry.  Home Depot has the pink stuff.  I found a source for custom cut styrofoam, so I had 6" X 12" X 48" and 6" X 6" X 12" pices cut to raise the track to the upper level.  I plan to use Woodland Scenic risers to get up to that level.

 

Jim

Jim;

Try that test with 10 cars and you will see a marked difference. I notice it even on my Christmas loop with only 8 cars - It's far louder than my main basement layout which has various materials under the track to cut the noise.  And of my various materials, Celotex Soundboard is the best by far. Also it's more available and less expensive than Homosote at least around here.

Beware tho, it has low structural strength. don't try to pick up a sheet by the corner, it will break right off. Sort of like Ceiling tiles in 4 X 8' sheets.

 

I too am glad to read the info about the ballast connecting the track to the plywood conducting sound the roadbed had muffled. I'll be doing something to avoid that.

There are a few photos of my progress under a posting "I've been working on the Railroad Room"  Work is progressing a little at a time.  I have a bunch of progress photo's I need to download and still tweaking the design.  I started out with a folded dog bone two mainline  O84 and O72 loops.  It's a U shaped layout but more of a modified letter G with a staging yard off the short side.