Sunset 3rd Rail SP/DRGW Krauss-Maffei ML-4000 engine

I have 3 of the Rivirossi HO scale versions....but yes......the cost is to high for me to justify....$500 I'd be in. Good luck to them...hope it makes it.

In talking to 2 friends, who also been waiting for an "O" scale engine a long time and were thinking of buying 1 or 2, tell me also that they are turned off by the pricing and will not reserve. After thinking things over and definitely wanting one for decades after giving up HO and having several in that scale, alas, I will also have to forego only because of price. Lovely engine, but------------------- 

You guys are like me - not aware of inflation.  I agree - a good plastic shell Diesel ought to be $300.  A good light plane ought to be $30K.  A good Mustang Convertible under ten grand.

I am currently paying $50 for a tankful of gasoline for my car.  I have no idea what a loaf of bread costs, but I bet it is approaching five bucks.

One must remember the tooling to be able to produce the model is what drives the cost. I personally prefer it to be a brass model, but id be happy either way.

I'm waiting for more "details" to follow before placing a reservation

Bruk posted:

One must remember the tooling to be able to produce the model is what drives the cost. I personally prefer it to be a brass model, but id be happy either way.

 

I'm waiting for more "details" to follow before placing a reservation

Working in the plastic model hobby I fully understand the price/cost. 

I don't fault 3rd Rail at all....takes guts to pull this off.....just outside my comfort zone.  I didn't pay much more for my new Ford 5.0 crate motor for my 66  Mustang!!!

So, Scott should sell these for less than what they cost him?  Yeah, that's a great business model (no pun intended).  Costs are rising for many reasons and you can place the blame wherever you want.  Scott isn't making a fortune here folks. 

Jay

Jay C posted:

So, Scott should sell these for less than what they cost him?  Yeah, that's a great business model (no pun intended).  Costs are rising for many reasons and you can place the blame wherever you want.  Scott isn't making a fortune here folks. 

Jay

Jay,

I am not criticizing Scott Mann: I love the guy and what he has done for the O scale community. I own more than a dozen of Sunset engines, in brass an plastic and a few cars, too. I have other engines reserved with Sunset. Sunset is the main reason why I am an O scale collector.

I know that the tooling to produce such an engine in plastic injected fashion is way too expensive for what he can expect to sell. The solution would be to manufacture the shell in brass or 3D print it. For low quantities, 3D printing may be the way to go. Chassis can be made of stamped steel like what has been used for all the other Sunset diesels. Trucks can be cast from lost wax, as usual.

Liking the ML-4000, I am simply worried that this project will be aborted because of the upfront price of the model. I agree with you that Scott should not lose money on anything he does and I wish him as much financial success as possible. I have in the past and will support him in his endeavors, but I am afraid that at $1200 a pop, Sunset will not find too many enthusiasts and this project will die. It is just regrettable.

Yves

In 1957 I remember buying an All Nation dummy F-7 for $25.  All I could afford - it was on sale, down from $53.  I do not remember what the powered units sold for.

My $25 would be $512 today!

For myself, prices or cost of the past have no bearing on what I can afford or am willing to pay today.

josef posted:

For myself, prices or cost of the past have no bearing on what I can afford or am willing to pay today.

I agree.........

It boils down 'wants' and 'dis-possible income'.  And now that we are at the point our O scale locomotives are getting close to a high performance motor for a car I am restoring......I gotta make a choice.

A loco that runs around my basement or a 5.0 V-8 that runs down the hi-way. My editorial that prices for the O scale toy is passing the prices for my other toys......quickly.  

I know... I know... It's not cheap. My first car wasn't much more too (73 Pinto) ;( .

But we are getting enough orders and will be moving forward with the ML4000.  I am very excited about this project, so close to home too (Niles Canyon).

Making a model like this in brass would at least double the price tag, so that's why we are tooling it in plastic.

3D printing is not ready for making production models. I wish it was, but it ain't.

Plus our dedicated factory knows how to do this with an ABS body and brass detailing. They can get the same look and feel as a brass model. I am confident in their ability to make a really nice scale piece this way. Look what they did with the SD7s and SD9s.

So if you want one, order one. If you don't think it's worth the price to you, then don't.

I can only promise you, that you won't be disappointed or your can return your model for a refund.

http://www.3rdrail.com/reservation.html#KM

Hope it works out.....one of my favorite locos......like me....odd. 

Waited approximately 25+ years for this engine to be made in O scale.  Almost pulled the trigger on purchasing one when Overland Models made them a few years back in HO scale. Without question an absolutely must have model for any Southern Pacific train collector.

A bit pricey but a 'once-in-a-lifetime' opportunity to have one regardless of whether its brass or plastic/brass construction. A couple of years ago a modeler on the Niles Canyon Krauss-Moffei restoration website was doing a very limited run of these diesels in O scale at approximately 2 1/2 times the price so Scott's price to my way of thinking is very reasonable for this unique diesel.

Scott is to be congratulated for seriously considering to do it.

Will be interesting to see if the market supports 75 reservations for this model, if successful it will allow Sunset to offer unique prototypes to a more limited market willing to invest at this level. Clearly the standard runs at 400+  and 700 +/- price range need a good mix of 2 rail and 3 rail buyers to make it happen, it seems this market is limited to mostly first generation diesel buyers. JMO 

I can only promise you, that you won't be disappointed or your can return your model for a refund.

doesn't get any better than that from an O scale builder!

I went ahead an ordered (1) SP this morning. Very Unique - probably a once in a life time opportunity.

I am glad to see that project coming to light! Also happy to see that there are enough collectors being able to afford it.

Yes, I wish 3D printing would be ready as it would allow us to have this model (and others) for a lot less money.

Yves

sdmann posted:

But we are getting enough orders and will be moving forward with the ML4000.  I am very excited about this project, so close to home too (Niles Canyon).

http://www.3rdrail.com/reservation.html#KM

 

 

Scott, do you plan on installing dual smoke units with these units? Its probably a given knowing 3rd rails rep.

Thanks,

With a horizontal motor design and all the electronics, speaker and full cab interior there probably isn't room for a 2nd smoker, but we do put a manifold to distribute smoke where it's supposed to go.

Scott

Scott,

Why didn't I think of that!  All my smoke comes from the wrong places.

Jay

still trying to find out about the 3rd rail AC4400CW of the late 1990s thats listed in my TM price guide although i did email scott about it this morning before english class.

Glad to see this project is moving forward.  Any chance of making the body style of the one at Niles Canyon.  

sdmann posted:

With a horizontal motor design and all the electronics, speaker and full cab interior there probably isn't room for a 2nd smoker, but we do put a manifold to distribute smoke where it's supposed to go.

Scott

Understood. I figured that's how you would do it, I noticed the offset exhaust stacks so I had to ask the question.

Also,

• Will it have an optional fixed Pilot w/kadee mounts for the 3rail models as seen on the f7's and f3's?
• Will it have easily accessible Volume Controls/Battery for replacement - Removable roof panels?
• Estimated production start, if orders keep flowing in? (the time frame for me to save that money)

Sorry for asking so many questions early, I want to put in a reservation but I' am trying to convince my self to do it. I'm always second guessing if I should do because you may come out with something else I'm interested in....... the T&P 610 late I got is Beautiful btw.

Thanks Scott,

We will discuss the KM project with our staff in Design to see when they could begin. Probably first quarter next year. Then delivery is most like about this time next year.

Yes, 3 Rail models will come with a 2 Rail style pilot with Kadee mount.

Yes, Controls will be under a magnetic hatch for easy access.

The folks designing and building the KM will be the same that have been making our diesels since the first run of E7s.

Awesome looking, I like it.

looking forward for these , i am in for two Rio Grande

i am hoping you will make them as they where dilivered, not with all the experimental air intakes 

Cor

I wanted to know if both nose light styles (DRGW Large headlight and SP small red light)  are going to  be made.

Also, for a short time the DRGW units retained their yellow paint job and had Southern Pacific on the sides!

I have had a really soft spot for this locomotive ever since Rivarossi brought them out in HO.  I had 2 of them in SP then and can't wait to get the O gauge model. 

Rolland

Any updates on the ML-4000 project!? @sdmann

Scott, is there a possibility of separate decals for the units? That way German O scalers could run an SP one with either K-M or SP on it. And the DRGW units  with SP on it. One of the DRGW units remained in yellow for a year.            FYI, Division Point was going to build a brass KM but couldn't get enough takers at around $3500 each.

We have scheduled design and production of the KMs for late this year.

I will be breaking out the Krauss Maffei lettered version of both the SP and Rio Grande paint schemes with buffers added for European customers. I hope to get a few orders of each.

Scott Mann

Although outside my era of interest (1936-1959), a very nice addition to the O Scale portfolio. It appears folks do have a full appreciation of the many additions to O Scale Scott has made, engines that I never expected to see the light of day 20+ years ago (CGW 2-10-4 comes to mind, and note that all 2R have sold out, so sound business bet).

Here's a photo is the one SP painted and KM lettered unit that was tested on the Austrian railway. Note the horn location. It had to be moved for clearance on their railway. Also an extra lights were added.  Division Point had models made, and am posting their pictures of the  alternate lettering scemes. DRGW WITH SP lettering won't download. Will work on it. 

JOVILA posted:

.

Amazing that a "high end" brass importer would ship something like that.  I'll bet Sunset -- or even MTH ! -- would get it right.

SZ

so I am a little confused. is scott offering the rio grande yellow model with sp lettering and large headlight? if so I am in

I had the Rivarossi HO unit in the 70s and loved it.  I was working with a 3D printer guy I know locally to make the body of this engine in approximately O scale with the intention of getting a semi scale unit for myself to run. 

Now that the O scale engine is coming from Sunset, I abandoned my semi scale plan.  As of right now the Sunset reservation form only has 2 options, SP and D&RGW.  I signed up for one of the SP engines and really wanted the Rio Grande but could not justify it to myself.  If Scott offered the Rio Grande unit with SP lettering it would be real hard to say no. 

Rolland

Sounds like I need to put the Rio Grande / SP Lettered option. Will do.