Timeless Photography: What's your opinion?

OK Mike, a few of my thoughts, having grown up in the steam era, and started taking B&W "snap shots", in the early 1950s. 

1) I much prefer well done black & white photography, since in my opinion, it tends to duplicate the "real world of steam power", at least as I remember it.

2) For those "posed" photo events, especially with "dead/display" locomotives, that use color photography, I find my eyes being quickly drawn to the "errors" for the period that is trying to be duplicated. Such as NOT period clothing & shows, "inspecting" the running gear with a RED LANTERN, and the generated "steam" coming from places that are NOT correct.

3) A proper "railroad setting" is always helpful.

PennsyPride94 posted:

Feel free to post any pictures you have that serve as an example of a timeless image. 

Okay, here are some of mine:

PennsyPride94 posted:

 

Filling the enginehouse with steam, the hostler pulls out the throttle and backs N&W #475 out into the morning sun.

How is the hostler pulling the throttle from the fireman's side? Or has this image been reversed?

smd4 posted:

PennsyPride94 posted:

 

Filling the enginehouse with steam, the hostler pulls out the throttle and backs N&W #475 out into the morning sun.

 

How is the hostler pulling the throttle from the fireman's side? Or has this image been reversed?

He's facing rearward in the engineer's seat backing out of the enginehouse.......

Color record photography is very useful for us, we who are trying to recreate the prototype in 1:48, but black & white is an art form that can capture the light, mood and textures as color seldom does.

I enjoy photography as another of my hobbies.  While I do it once in a while...and it can be effective...I generally find black and white photography to be dull and sometimes gloomy.  When I was a kid steam was still on the rails.  My grandfather would take me down to the Southern Pacific Bayshore Yard in San Francisco/Brisbane.  And...yes...I have all of  O. Winston Link's books...and...they are beautiful...but steam locomotives are not black and white. I remember other colors that went with those fire-breathing monsters and loved it.  Although they're rare...I appreciate some of the color train photography that was taken...say...of the Daylight...in the 1950's.    As for "posed" photography of steam or diesels...I always prefer to capture them in color.  It just adds more to the scene.  Many people who weren't around for steam can see a more living picture of a steam locomotive.  Here is one B&W and some color photos I took.  Just my preference.  Matt

I guess part of a timeless photo is making something extraordinary appear ordinary.

Rusty

Rapid Transit Holmes posted:

Color record photography is very useful for us, we who are trying to recreate the prototype in 1:48, but black & white is an art form that can capture the light, mood and textures as color seldom does.

Not every time. There are plenty of photos that wouldn't have the same impact in b/w that they have in color.

Case in point already posted here, this wouldn't have the same effect without that nice green background and blue sky, which sets the locomotive as it's own element very effectively:

To me, a timeless image is meant to capture a moment in time, whether one is posing RR employees at a museum in steam-era garb, or trying to get #611 or any other steamer at a location that is evocative of say, the 1950s N&W.
Unfortunately the modern world has intruded severely on places where a timeless image can be attempted, as even rural landscapes have been altered or cluttered.
As shown above, RR museums can be of real service in providing an outlet for photographers to recreate those moments from the golden era, provided enough attention is given to the details.
I also believe that B&W can also aid in establishing a "timeless mood" to a photo, after all, those hi-viz vests (hate em') that some members of the 611 crew wear show up real well in color images.
Attached are a couple of my images that have IMO a timeless mood, all 4 looked OK in color, but editing into B&W allowed me to hide certain things and accent others.
All digital images by Warren W. Jenkins

BTW, O. W. Link also shot color photos, they are also quite nice, one of his books has a whole chapter of them.

p51 posted:

Rapid Transit Holmes posted:

Color record photography is very useful for us, we who are trying to recreate the prototype in 1:48, but black & white is an art form that can capture the light, mood and textures as color seldom does.

Not every time. There are plenty of photos that wouldn't have the same impact in b/w that they have in color.

Case in point already posted here, this wouldn't have the same effect without that nice green background and blue sky, which sets the locomotive as it's own element very effectively:

Except, the Southern Pacific steam locomotives did NOT have white tires, and stars on their drivers & engine truck wheels (except for those locomotives with pressure feed oil lubrication), in regular service. Thus, that is obviously a "dolled up" excursion locomotive, and not "period correct".

Beautiful shot, however!

I will always love the 2472 in a color shot...but I'm sure there are some great B&W photos of it also.  It may be a "dolled up excursion" locomotive that is not "period correct," but a lot of people put a lot of hard work, sweat, time, experience, and perseverance into taking it from a static locomotive at a county fairgrounds to a beautiful operational steam locomotive.  Many people...including me...will look at it with awe, respect and affection regardless if it has white tires and stars!  Matt 

Borden, Love that B&W shot of the 611. Thanks for posting.

boin106 posted:

I will always love the 2472 in a color shot...but I'm sure there are some great B&W photos of it also.  It may be a "dolled up excursion" locomotive that is not "period correct," but a lot of people put a lot of hard work, sweat, time, experience, and perseverance into taking it from a static locomotive at a county fairgrounds to a beautiful operational steam locomotive.  Many people...including me...will look at it with awe, respect and affection regardless if it has white tires and stars!  Matt 

All well and good, except a similar group of people pulled SP 4449 out of a park, fully restored her, toured the western portion of the United States with the American Freedom Train, then rebuilt her again for the New Orleans Worlds Fair Daylight trip in 1984, operated many excursions since, performed her FRA mandated 15 year boiler inspection, and STILL try and maintain her "historic" appearance in the 21st century, without looking like a "circus show".

Well Hot Water, I guess you must have thought the 4449 in Freedom Train Colors was a "circus show".  I didn't. Try to stay on subject please. Don

scale rail posted:

Well Hot Water, I guess you must have thought the 4449 in Freedom Train Colors was a "circus show".

Well, as a matter of fact, I did! But, besides that, it was still a VERY historic event and nation wide operation, what with the three different steam locomotives painted up for the two year bi-centenial celebration.

Then again from my vantage point in the Fireman's seat, I really didn't care what color she was painted! Especially since she was NOT involved in a "period photo shoot".

 I didn't. Try to stay on subject please. Don

Please remind me,,,,,,what was the subject again?

A MoPac guy posted this on Face Book, and I showed it to the Frisco groups...it generated a flood of positive comments.  For people who had the opportunity to railroad pre-1990's, this photo evokes good memories.

"The brakeman on Frisco Train 337, the northbound Local from Wichita to Ellsworth, KS, locks the gate after crossing the Mop Pueblo Line at Frederick, KS. 1978."  Glenn Diehl Photo

Great posts everyone! And thanks Don for returning us to the original topic. 

I must agree with Rapid Transit Holmes about the use of B&W. The shots I posted above looked rather artificial and fake with the mood of the present lighting. B&W, again IMO, provides the best outlet for capturing the texture of a scene especially in the case of my picture with the hostler surrounded by the smokey and steamy enginehouse backing #475 out of the stall. 

At the same time like Matt said, color does have its merits. I have looked at a TON of O.W.L. images in color and love the film like features of them. Using film filters allows for me to express that era as best as I possibly can and its fun! Additionally, color definitely has its advantages in capturing the beauty of a scene particularly in the setting sun or early morning hours. 

Keep the posts coming everyone! Thanks for replying.  

My favorite engine. Don

How many youngsters over the years have been amazed at the living, breathing giant on the track near them? As did I many years ago, standing near a Baltimore and Ohio Mike, her turbo whining, steam hissing, and the air pump making her sound like it was alive. Is this is what is on this young boy's mind as he takes in the sights and sounds of 734 on the turntable at Frosturg? I made this fifteen years ago,with my first digital camera, a Nikon 990.

Color can work sometimes, as well. Imagine, at the Ridgeley Western Maryland shop, back in the days of steam, how many times this was repeated! Here is 734 doing her best to relive the past....

Thanks to eBay, I  was able to purchase two 5x7 B&W photos taken at the Hollis, NY train station...one taken in 1930, other other in 1948. Because I spent many, many hours watching trains from this platform during 1948-56, these help me re-live those days. One is of a steam passenger express nearing the platform. The other is a wide view of the platform and station (burnt by arsons in 1967), showing how the 4 tracks went straight into the horizon (in each direction).

Amazing photos posted by everyone. 

To answer the original post, "What makes a timeless photo to you?" To me, the photos that include the human element are "timeless." When you can see the dirt, grease, and hard work on the person's face - or on the flip side - a freshly pressed suit and shined shoes, the photo translates aspects of the human element that do not change much over time, and we can all relate to it, no matter what else is in the photo.  

When the photo's subject matter is solely a steam locomotive (which I love) while it may be a great shot, to me it becomes more of a historic shot, versus a "timeless" photo. 

For example, look at this photo of high rise iron workers. To me, this is a timeless photo because we can all relate to going to work, taking risks, going to lunch break with colleagues, and doing whatever it takes to support your family.  If it was just a picture of the iron structure, I can appreciate it, but to me, it wouldn't be timeless. 

Or this photo from the Canadian Pacific archives: Conductor and engineer comparing train orders. We've all been in a situation like this, so when seeing this photo, we can almost hear the conversation.  

It translates in color too:

Courtesy of Strasburgrailroad.com

Just my two cents.

JD

Hey How did this guy get in here?

Everybody who watches and prefers a b&w TV hold your hand up!  I was a kid in the steam era with a junk Kodak and captured none of it.  "Ansel Adams" (b&w) photos are an art form, like a Picasso painting, but do not for me, capture real life and preserve the moment. And for determining correct color for a model? Useless. I remember a disparaging remark in one of the Beebe and Clegg books about a photographer they met who was shooting in color, as to how they knew none of it's mysteries. If only they had, and recorded the history of those vanished short lines as they actually saw it, and not through animal eyes. We would know what color the caboose was on the Podunk and Western.

Timeless, even in 1977:

Rusty

Ed and Rusty, 

Great shots. I always like to capture the steam plumes emanating from a steam locomotive. Here are some more "timeless" pictures: 

The Reading's Iron Horse Rambles back in the 60's have become a part of railroad nostalgia!

BTW, this location today is a "tree tunnel".

Hot Water posted:

scale rail posted:

Well Hot Water, I guess you must have thought the 4449 in Freedom Train Colors was a "circus show".

Well, as a matter of fact, I did! But, besides that, it was still a VERY historic event and nation wide operation, what with the three different steam locomotives painted up for the two year bi-centenial celebration.

Then again from my vantage point in the Fireman's seat, I really didn't care what color she was painted! Especially since she was NOT involved in a "period photo shoot".

 I didn't. Try to stay on subject please. Don

Please remind me,,,,,,what was the subject again?

 

Well...sorry to disappoint you, HW, but the 2472 is not a "circus show."  No one cares if the 4449 was or was not in a "period shoot."  Neither was the 2472.   If you don't know what the subject is...why are you on this thread?

boin106 posted:

Hot Water posted:

scale rail posted:

Well Hot Water, I guess you must have thought the 4449 in Freedom Train Colors was a "circus show".

Well, as a matter of fact, I did! But, besides that, it was still a VERY historic event and nation wide operation, what with the three different steam locomotives painted up for the two year bi-centenial celebration.

Then again from my vantage point in the Fireman's seat, I really didn't care what color she was painted! Especially since she was NOT involved in a "period photo shoot".

 I didn't. Try to stay on subject please. Don

Please remind me,,,,,,what was the subject again?

 

Well...sorry to disappoint you, HW, but the 2472 is not a "circus show."  No one cares if the 4449 was or was not in a "period shoot."  Neither was the 2472.   If you don't know what the subject is...why are you on this thread?

Matt,

Just what seems to be your problem with me? Darned near everything I post, you seem to take some sort of offense, and have to "attack" back, even on subjects that you are not familiar with. Besides, YOU didn't disappoint me, however the appearance of 2472 does disappoint me, especially considering my long time friend, Mr. Mike Manginni, the original man behind the 2472 restoration, surly wouldn't have gone with the white tires stars.

Well. Hot Water, I'm not sure Mike, who I started filming when the engine was still in the park, would care. They just wanted to get her on the SP rails and running. I shot all those Christmas train and many others with the 2472. All the major work in the park. I go way back. Don't put words in Mikes mouth. You don't know!!!!. Now, once again, let's get back on subject. Don

Hot Water posted:

boin106 posted:

Hot Water posted:

scale rail posted:

Well Hot Water, I guess you must have thought the 4449 in Freedom Train Colors was a "circus show".

Well, as a matter of fact, I did! But, besides that, it was still a VERY historic event and nation wide operation, what with the three different steam locomotives painted up for the two year bi-centenial celebration.

Then again from my vantage point in the Fireman's seat, I really didn't care what color she was painted! Especially since she was NOT involved in a "period photo shoot".

 I didn't. Try to stay on subject please. Don

Please remind me,,,,,,what was the subject again?

 

Well...sorry to disappoint you, HW, but the 2472 is not a "circus show."  No one cares if the 4449 was or was not in a "period shoot."  Neither was the 2472.   If you don't know what the subject is...why are you on this thread?

Matt,

Just what seems to be your problem with me? Darned near everything I post, you seem to take some sort of offense, and have to "attack" back, even on subjects that you are not familiar with. Besides, YOU didn't disappoint me, however the appearance of 2472 does disappoint me, especially considering my long time friend, Mr. Mike Manginni, the original man behind the 2472 restoration, surly wouldn't have gone with the white tires stars.

Well...HW...I just like to present a different view on things.  You're the one who seems to be taking offense.  After all...that's what a forum allows.

p51 posted:

Rapid Transit Holmes posted:

Color record photography is very useful for us, we who are trying to recreate the prototype in 1:48, but black & white is an art form that can capture the light, mood and textures as color seldom does.

Not every time. There are plenty of photos that wouldn't have the same impact in b/w that they have in color.

Case in point already posted here,this wouldn't have the same effect without that nice green background and blue sky, which sets the locomotive as it's own element very effectively:

Depends on one's mood, I guess.

Yep..timeless, I think depends on the subject and composition.

Here are two examples, can't imagine number one in black and white, and the impact of the second is much better, IMO, in black and white rather than color.

Ed

You are so right, Ed.

The Everett RR  in Hollidaysburg,PA. can be a good place to find "timeless" settings.

In the engine only shot, I edited in B&W to hide the murky skies.
The shot of the entire train was changed to hide certain details, such as a modern red fire extinguisher on the tender.
The Everett's crewmen are always in correct garb, no slime green hi-viz vests here.
11/2015 and 10/2016 images by Warren W. Jenkins

Our very first run early in the morning. Don

This photo.........

As poor an image it is......one of my very favorites. It's my great grandfather and 'His' loco B&O 1212 at Weston WV. I met him one time....but I was 2 at the time....but his love for railroading must have been transferred to me.  I have an article from the Weston newspaper about him when he retired......add the family stories and I know this was not just a job....it was his passion.  You can just make him out between the 2 and 3 drivers. Thx

Dave, is this the same locomotive? Don

From the digging I've done...yes. That 3rd photo reports 1212 in the scrap line....Thx

This is the depot in Richwood WV as it is now. In the story about his retirement he said this was a common destination on his daily trips. I found all this out after I moved not far from Richwood.  I can trace most of his trip but the tracks are gone. 

Photos of old things taken with a modern digital camera using modern coated lenses just jump out at me and scream "MODERN!"  The differences in image quality between a lens from the first half of the 20th C and those from the second half (and even more so from this century) are tremendous.  I have no desire to take a modern camera to one of those foamer re-enactment deals and take photos.  If I were to do it I would take my 1925 Gundlach Korona 5x7 field camera and 1914-1928 Dagor/Heliar/Tessar lenses and shoot something like Fomapan b&w film.  That would be fun!  However, instead of trying to replicate photos that might have been taken  in the 1920s, I've done the reverse.  My premise is, "What if a foamer from the 1920s were to show up today and take photos using his 1920s gear?"  What I get is a collection of photos taken in the style popular from 100 years ago, with 100 yr. old gear, of current railroad scenes.  

Really though, most of my photography is generally all about "Life on the Northern Plains" during my life time.  It's about how trains are interwoven into society and life now.  I don't actively try to recreate the past because that is gone, and it's of little consequence to me artistically.

As for b&w, I do like it of course.  About a quarter of my shots are shot on b&w film.  (I don't personally care for taking a digital file and simply turning it "monochrome.")  I'm after a more vintage look, thus I use vintage cameras & lenses and older formulations of film (Fomapan, Efke etc.)  Link did shoot some color film but didn't like it.  Partly he didn't like it because he couldn't do any dark room work with it, and partly he didn't like it because color film of the time was very slow (ISO 25).  To shoot at night with ISO 25 instead of ISO 100 he would have had to use an amount of flash that was four times the brightness of what he used for b&w film.  That's a tremendous amount of light!  I have a book of some of Link's color shots, and honestly while they are well composed they really are no better than that of any other foamer of that period.  

There was a foamer from the pre-war period that used color film (Kodachrome 25) who was shooting a 4x5 camera to take some of the best shots ever.  That guy was Jack Delano in the late 1930s and early 1940s, working for the federal government.  Anyone care to argue that his color shots "don't work?" 

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Kent in SD