UP Steam Shop Video

Men are right up there with the ladies with a penchant for gossip. None of this second hand rumor mill output generates anything of use other than satisfy idle curiosity.

The fact is that the UP has been more dedicated than any other road in preserving our history and they are allowed to stumble occasionally without becoming a catch basin for negativity. Who has not screwed up if this is the case? Who is keeping score anyway?

The whole gossip aspect of this is a waste of brain cells. It seems the great shop improvements which was the subject were seemingly glossed over. I say kudos to the UP where putting it's own money into our shared history where the focus is concerned. 

they are allowed to stumble occasionally without becoming a catch basin for negativity.

When you are inviting the public to come and look at your 300 psi boiler under steam no "stumbles" can be tolerated.

It really is that simple.

The steam locomotive operators here get that.

I believe that is why they seem so intolerant of bad practices, they know the consequences are deadly.

Until there is better verification my view is that this is simply gossip and any specific bad practices outside of generalities based on second hand information have yet to be identified. I agree that if "bad practices" are the case, finger pointing doesnt resolve anything from the perspective of correcting an issue, especially from the outside looking in. As a retired project manager, I say until more is known, some nuance is called for in the comments as a fairness issue. UP and their safety record speaks for itself until  actual facts surface or are shared.

Again simple logic. If 3985's boiler was gunked up like 844's there would be pictures of it on the internet. That means there is relitivly nothing wrong with it. If there were evidence that made the old team look bad Ed Dickens would present it. One way or another.. The old team or at least some of them in response to Ed Dickens finger pointing at them, has done a really good job of vilifying him. If 3985 was not maintained like Ed has claimed where is the evidence? Simple picture would go along way to restoring some of Ed's credibility..

What I know is: for the first time in my lifetime, UP has no operational steam.  I see a restoration treading in molasses while smaller, less funded operations race ahead.  I see enthusiastic volunteers pulling superheater tubes on 611, while UP shows video of shop ceilings.  I see WMS do in weeks what it took UP months to do.  In Maryland I see laughing men making sparks fly, in Cheyenne I see a deserted shop with rusty small parts on a table.

I think a better perspective is to look at ( as an example) how the NS collaboration is organised and managed versus an in house union shop funded privately by UP. One is more in the public perspective due to public participation via donations etc (NS) and the other is more prone to being insular and politic to internal policies, which leads to talking out of school via social media. The NS model seems less prone to a lack of scrutiny  where UP is prone to outside perspectives that are all in the eyes of the beholder from the outside looking in. To put it simply there is less us versus them sort of scuttlebutt involving the NS program versus the UP and the reason for this seems obvious.

Until there is better verification my view is that this is simply gossip and any specific bad practices outside of generalities based on second hand information have yet to be identified.

844 is out of service awaiting the replacement of her flues and tubes.  The UP has also stated that 844 will receive a new boiler survey as part of the project, several years and many hours before it was due.  There are numerous photos that have been posted showing a very large amount of scale or sediment that has accumulated in 844's boiler.  It has also been reported that her tender has suffered from internal corrosion.

Those who are familiar with 844 and the UP's past operating practices have stated on this forum and elsewhere that when the leadership of the UP steam program changed there was a change in water treatment procedures and the frequency of boiler blowdowns. 

As as someone who does not work in locomotive service or as a stationary engineer I am inclined to believe those with steam locomotive experience who have stated that the change in procedures has resulted in the need for early heavy maintenance to 844.

I also believe that those who have retired from the program have nothing but good wishes for the UP, their steam program and the people who hopefully will operate it for many years to come.  Unfortunately, the benefit of their experience and advice does not seem to be wanted by the current manager.

I have followed news of the UP steam program here and at other venues.  Do you think that I have made too much of the information that is available?  Do you think some of that information is incorrect?  Do you think that their is important information that is missing from the story?  Do you think the guys who have retired from the program have some axe to grind?  If so why?  I am interested to hear your thoughts.

I have no idea  whom you are referring to in reference to those "familiar" with past operating practices or what that infers. My point is that if there was an issue with water treatment etc, I am confident it will be addressed. If this was the case, this is a UP issue that will not be resolved in a model railroad forum.Referring to employee turn over, management styles, previous versus former employee's expertise, etc accentuates inferences and casts a unnecessary pall over what should be potentially a wonderful opportunity to see a Big Boy return to steam. 

My comments were in response to previous ones regarding management, past and present from the outside looking in as "armchair generals"..which are from my point of view have no demonstrable purpose other to assume an objective stance over a process they have no involvement in. The axes being ground are in the previous comments from non UP employees. Any further comment from yours truly would be redundant and only fuel a potential purposeless debate.

Electro, you miss the point.  I don't care about scuttlebutt. I've heard all sorts of things. (The steam community is rather small)  What I SEE is a well funded program losing ground to other programs in the same time span.  SOMETHING here, is wrong. 

Exactly!  Point being is that you can toss all the $$$ you want at the program and it won't get a wheel turning without the appropriate people in place who possess the knowledge and the skillsets necessary to get it done. 

Sorry but, I don't understand your logic. I was there, for some 17 years as a Contract Fireman on 844 and 3985. I saw what happened when Mr. Dickens came on board the steam crew the first time, and was subsequently fired off the steam crew.

Upon he's later promotion as manager of the steam sop, I saw him change EVERYTHING, from lubrication, to water treatment, to numerous operating and maintenance practices. Now none of the machines run,and ALL the previous EXPERIENCED crew members are gone, after only three and a half years of his management style and lack of knowledge.

My point of view is that none of the roads owe us anything.

Having overseen many a project I can tell you that no two projects are the same. These things in terms of a time frame to completion are always based on preexisting field conditions and then there is the matter of retrofits and the design issues that are required for eventual installation. I would rather see previous issues addressed, and time taken to do a full restoration rather than rushing things for the sake of expediting completion. Rail fan's expectations and the restoration realities are two different animals. When you take personalities out of the equation, it's a challenge that can be daunting none the less. I remain convinced the business model for the restoration of 611 remains superior. 

Obviously!  The previous EXPERIENCED members of the old N&W/NS steam crew were brought BACK to do the job.

Again, one perspective out of many. You may be right and you may be wrong and you have an ax to grind publically about your previous employer's current track record as I assume you are no longer employed there as a contracted fireman. I get it...

But..... time will only tell if you are on point or not.

We will see one way or the other.

I cannot vouch for what he knows or does not know or what you know..it all boils down to this inference versus that one. When the job is done, will any of this matter? To you, I guess it always will and how can I disagree with that?

Again, one perspective out of many.

Yes, one opinion.

One informed opinion.

The UP asked Hot Water to fire for them.  He brought thousand of miles of experience firing SP 4449 with him.  How can taking vacation time from selling EMD diesels to fire for the UP at their request be held against someone in assessing the current situation?

I am at a loss to understand your perspective on that.

I have sat in the hot seat more than once over issues between new employees, new managers, and long time employees and long term managers. Some are resistant to change, some welcome change. Who is correct? I respect both Hot Water' and your views in terms of being sincere and passionate. A line employee and a manager's point of view don't always coincide..more often than not. I have managed both union and non union employees under some tough circumstances and the only way I resolved any issue between all parties was to hear all sides of a issue. It is not that I doubt or attempt to refute what is being said but it's one opinion..regardless of it's possible veracity, which is just as likely to be on point..Who is dwelling on the Dismal Swamp fiasco or many others I could name based on a fail? All I am saying regardless of this or that, the project will move on, the UP program will not meet an apocalyptic end. If this new fellow fails, he will hopefully be shown the door. We can point fingers all day long to no effect so what is the point? If those involved are convinced the program is doomed write UP..complain to management. A model railroad forum seems the least effective forum. Express concern to UP about all steam being down. I am at an equal loss to assume that either my comments or others here will produce anything but a heat sink for grievances real or not producing...nothing..zero results.

All I am saying regardless of this or that, the project will move on, the UP program will not meet an apocalyptic end.

That is just the thing about a steam program.  The locomotive doesn't care about any of the human factors.  If the locomotive isn't treated properly it will come to a catastrophic end.

If due care is not taken to follow proper O&M procedures then it will fall to regulatory agencies to step in to ensure public and worker safety.  I certainly hope that the people at the UP do not allow things continue to head toward a point where regulatory action is required.  It is pretty scary to me, and I am sure that the guys here who operate steam locomotives are even more concerned, that the UP steam program has recently had problems with water treatment, boiler washing and that swimming pool test kits or chemicals may have been used on 844.  Those are all things cited as contributory factors in the fatal accident at the Gettysburg Railroad.  I certainly never want to read an NTSB report about an accident involving 844 or any other excursion locomotive.

Steam operations can have no tolerance for soap operas.  It is serious business.  If not taken seriously it has been and will be deadly.  Not everyone had had a chance to move on from an improperly run steam operation.

http://www.athra.asn.au/librar...Boiler_Explosion.pdf

Well hopefully the courts will finally solve the issues. This past week the attorney for the lady that filed the sexual harassment lawsuit against Mr. Ed Dickens, Jr and the Union Pacific Railroad, conducted the first serious of depositions with said Mr. Dickens. Things reportedly didn't go very well! 

A hot auto radiator is bad, and you can really get burned by it.  From what I can see from a steam boiler explosion pictures, the area around ground zero would not be prety!

Hmmm could that be change that I smell in the air?...

Well, you can bury your head in the sand if you want, but this whole thing is about to blow up in Ed's face, and several of the people here and at Trainorders have known it was going to happen for a couple of years.  Welcome to being behind the curve.

This sort of thing lowers the bar for responsible adult behavior on a model railroad forum.

 Resorting to character assassination should not be allowed here.

This being the REAL TRAINS FORUM, I don't see the issue!

Defamation of Dickens' character?

More like definition.

Ted Hikel is spot on. The Gettysburg Railroad thought THEY too were doing a good enough job at water treatment and boiler washing....

 Obviously someone in the upper management, or all management at UP, is having the wool pulled over their eyes about the steam program.

I expect you wouldnt

If you read the report, you would find out that this was certainly not the case.

Mud slinging is a real class act

Especially when it is all the mud, scale, and concrete in the boiler of 844.

It ain't mudslinging if it's the truth.

Nice folks who sling mud behind another's back...I think someone is hard at work developing a reputation for that..good luck with that rap.

Care to name names? Since Steve Lee was the person that always hired me, and NOT the "Fireman", I don't agree with your statement. Unless of course, it was Mr. Ed Dickens you were talking to.

This brings to mind a scene from the movie The Train where the engineer purposely sabotaged the locomotive to get back at the new operators.  

I just did some surgery on this thread to remove a few posts. Play nice, eh boys?

A few comments if I may, to those of you still trying to claim that everything is OK in Cheyenne...

First off, please understand that I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't know anyone on the current UP steam crew. I have never met Ed Dickens. And I don't care one way or another about seeing the Big Boy run. However, the problems on the UP Steam Crew currently in play in Cheyenne are well known in the steam locomotive owner/operator "fraternity." The photos which documented current state of the 844's boiler got the attention of EVERYONE in the steam locomotive fraternity when they came to light. The condition of the inside of that boiler was downright frightening! I have been inside the 765's boiler many times and can tell you that on its worst day it has never looked anywhere close to the mess they found inside the 844! The 844's flat wheel incident was another well documented event that tarnished the UP steam crew's reputation, especially when Mr. Dickens attempted to foist blame on others.

Two lawsuits have been filed against Mr. Dickens. One is an employee discrimination suit and the other is a sexual harassment suit. These are not rumors or mudslinging. They are a matter of public record and I have read them both. It is serious stuff.

Other documented issues include the fact that the Union Pacific does not have an operable steam locomotive this year - that's a FIRST.  The steam crew has had more than 100% turnover in the short time Mr. Dickens has been in charge. These are also not rumors or mud slinging...they are provable facts. Many of the things which Jack (Hot Water) has stated about this situation are also provable facts. He still has contacts inside the company and gets a lot of first-hand intel on this situation.

The bottom line is that none of this bodes well for the future of the UP steam program. The operational and maintenance issues in play are serious enough that they could even have far-reaching, negative effects on other steam locomotive operators.

To those of you who think this is nothing more than a few disgruntled former employees just trying to stir the pot, that is NOT what this is! This situation is much more serious than that! The guys doing the complaining (there are several - it is not just Jack) are trying to expose real problems in the UP steam program. It would appear that this long-standing corporate railroad steam program is in real danger of collapsing.

UP has got to get this mess straightened out one way or another...and soon!

Rich:

Does Omaha really "knows" what is going on?

And this also brings up another issue.  If UP cannot take care of the steam program, then by extension, a normal rational person would think Omaha has little control over the entire railroad.  This is/could become a MAJOR PR explosion across the system if not cleaned up.

I would be inclined to think that most if not all of what Omaha knows comes from Mr. Dickens directly.  I'll say this, if the issues in Cheyenne with the 844 have gotten the attention of the steam community as a whole then brother it IS that bad. 

Thanks Rich for posting a clear and well thought out summation of the facts. 

Rich

I would disagree with saying Jack is not disgruntled and so the real question is, does it have any basis? As far as lawsuits are concerned, this has nothing to do with the conditions, past or present with any locomotive. The lawsuits have not been decided in court and bringing them up infers guilt ahead of a verdict. I would be concerned with the issues surrounding a defamation of character and tread more wisely.

The UP is a very successful road if you look at their metrics. They are not a museum or operation running on someone else’s rails and many issues surrounding inspections predate Ed Dickens which resulted in a campaign waged at Trainorders by Jack and a certain individual whom Jack had a close association with.

Have you read them? Steve Lee once proclaimed very loudly Big Boy would never run again. Obviously he was wrong. Opinions are not always reflective of an actual situation.

There is more to this story than Jack’s side of it and common sense dictates UP knows more than you do and they have an excellent track record on a much larger scope than running a single excursion engine.  That is mixing oranges and apples.

Despite your “documentation” UP will run steam in the future but I doubt Jack will be invited back. I know you and Jack are friends but allowing this one sided diatribe to continue is irresponsible in my book.

If you are concerned with the effect of your claims on your or other steam excursion operators, have you contacted UP to make them known?

I think railroad end of the business has Omaha's undivided attention. 

The steam program is just a hobby for the UP.

Rusty

A few comments if I may, to those of you still trying to claim that everything is OK in Cheyenne...

 

First off, please understand that I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't know anyone on the current UP steam crew. I have never met Ed Dickens. And I don't care one way or another about seeing the Big Boy run. However, the problems on the UP Steam Crew currently in play in Cheyenne are well known in the steam locomotive owner/operator "fraternity." The photos which documented current state of the 844's boiler got the attention of EVERYONE in the steam locomotive fraternity when they came to light. The condition of the inside of that boiler was downright frightening! I have been inside the 765's boiler many times and can tell you that on its worst day it has never looked anywhere close to the mess they found inside the 844! The 844's flat wheel incident was another well documented event that tarnished the UP steam crew's reputation, especially when Mr. Dickens attempted to foist blame on others.

 

Two lawsuits have been filed against Mr. Dickens. One is an employee discrimination suit and the other is a sexual harassment suit. These are not rumors or mudslinging. They are a matter of public record and I have read them both. It is serious stuff.

 

Other documented issues include the fact that the Union Pacific does not have an operable steam locomotive this year - that's a FIRST.  The steam crew has had more than 100% turnover in the short time Mr. Dickens has been in charge. These are also not rumors or mud slinging...they are provable facts. Many of the things which Jack (Hot Water) has stated about this situation are also provable facts. He still has contacts inside the company and gets a lot of first-hand intel on this situation.

 

The bottom line is that none of this bodes well for the future of the UP steam program. The operational and maintenance issues in play are serious enough that they could even have far-reaching, negative effects on other steam locomotive operators.

 

To those of you who think this is nothing more than a few disgruntled former employees just trying to stir the pot, that is NOT what this is! This situation is much more serious than that! The guys doing the complaining (there are several - it is not just Jack) are trying to expose real problems in the UP steam program. It would appear that this long-standing corporate railroad steam program is in real danger of collapsing.

 

UP has got to get this mess straightened out one way or another...and soon!

 

Rich Melvin, Publisher & CEO

O Gauge Railroading magazine

Thanks Rich!

Steve Lee once proclaimed very loudly Big Boy would never run again. Obviously he was wrong.

Moved and run under its own power are not the same.  There is a long way to go before that happens.  The recent difficulty maintaining operating equipment in good order does not bode well for restoring another locomotive and maintaining it for the long run.

Electroliner

My point of view in this saga is from the perspective of a rail fan with an interest in the equipment and what it takes to keep it operating.  I've met a few UP steam crew members when they were touring my area but I do not know any of them personally.  You seem quite interested in the interplay between the persons involved with the present and past UP steam crews and some of your comments have struck me as being more focused on the people than the bottom line physical realities of operating steam locomotives.  What is your point of interest or point of view into the people behind the machines?