UP Steam Shop Video

And you know this how? Surprisingly, twice since Steve Lee retired (December 2010), Mr. Dickens has phoned me and requested my presences on different trips. I respectfully declined, has I had/have no desire to work with/for him ever again. 

All you need is just a little common sense. We have two locomotives not ready to run.

Now we have a third one, which also is not ready to run. Common sense would have

caused me to leave 4014 where it was, instead of ginning up the railfan base by putting it back in service, and having a full court press to have at least 844 or 3985 ready for next year.

Guess where this puts the UP steam program? No steam this year..and maybe NO steam next year. Somebody at UP is gonna think much money for nothing...

Might even lead to the UP steam program being tabled.

Ed Mullan

To answer your question..Steam locomotives are dependent on people. I like steam locomotives 

All I know is there's no steam this for the first time ever, right?  Never happened under Steve Lee watch.  That's all I know.

So if the current "alleged" bad management were to be dismissed, would there be anyone to replace them?  And could they go in an not reflect on the past issues and move forward?  

Since cel I have no personal knowledge about any of these dealings I just prefer to get a straight answer and not rehash the crap.

844 had a pretty bad failure in 1999 in Sacramento, I watched it get towed home. The 3985 was down for a few years for various things

Yes  I will confirm that, Ed did tell me he called you twice.

Yeah but she did run in 1999.  Nothing at all this year.

Right but I don't believe there was ever a calendar year (JAN-DEC) without 1 of the 2 operating. 

This mess originated with certain issues with 3985 and that was my point. Blaming one party for all the ills shared by several is ridiculous and non productive. In due time they will be corrected. Why? Because this program is not a hobby. Its an important arm of UP's public relations program. To think otherwise is simply naivety. 

Even when 844 was "down for a complete firebox/boiler overhaul", the 3985 was always available for service. Bottom line, there has not been one full calendar year, since 1861, that the Union Pacific Railroad has NOT had at least one steam locomotive "available for service"!

Does available for service equate to FRA compliant? Who does Steve Lee work for now?

Who did the boiler work on 3985?

OK, just what were/are those "certain issues with 3985"? During the fall of 2010, 3985 operated all the way east of Kansas City, and performed well, while 844 was getting crosshead guide repairs, in preparation for her 50th anniversary excursion from Omaha to North Platte, in December of 2010. 

All sorts of lies were put forth concerning the "status" of 3985. The bottom line is, she has been relegated to the farthest away stall in the roundhouse, with her tender removed, her appliances removed, her superheater units removed and scrapped, and no work has been performed on her since the winter of 2010/2011.

Was any boiler work done on 3985 in the past by Mr Lee's new employer as an outside contractor during his tenure as the supervisor at UP? I am not referring to the original restoration. Was there a issue with the work as completed? Perhaps the mystery person called "the realist" at Trainorders could weigh in on this. Do you know who "the realist" is?

I suspect you do. 

Here is a "damage control" memo addressing and disavowing any disparaging comments regarding UP from Mr Lee's employer that addresses comments by certain parties in their employ hiding behind a pseudonym.

"Agree with me or not, that is up to you. However, I will not participate in along debate, a drawn out conversation or any further speculation. I have made the comments that I feel are true, warranted and honest from the shoes and positions in which I stand. I value the UP and the current steam program for what it is. I hope they succeed in all that they do and I hope that this project is as great as they are making it sound right now. 
Be it known that no other Wasatch employee is hiding behind false names or cover-up titles. This is the official position of Wahsatch (Wasatch) Railroad Contractors. Enough said. "

http://www.trainorders.com/dis.../read.php?10,2936553

Hot Water is careful to point out what has not been done in the shop,in that time period leaving out what has been accomplished in that time frame.... here we go again.

electroliner, you specifically asked about the BOILER on 3985! Wahsatch Railroad Contractors did LOTS of other work for the UP steam operation, including the complete rebuild/refurbish of the two auxiliary water cars. They also installed the European Design exhaust nozzle system on 3985, which didn't work and was subsequently removed and scrapped, and her original twinge exhaust nozzle arrangement was reinstalled (which took all of 3 or 4 days). Wahsatch Railroad contractors did NOT perform any work on the boiler of 3985, as that was done by in-house employees, Ed Smith and Scott Turley, both Union Boilermaker/Welders.  

 Since the question was for Hot Water and he is more knowledgeable on the subject I don't understand why you would answer for him considering he and others actually have worked in the industry versus a being a rail fan. I am an SME in my field(CBRN Defense/CWMD/HAZMAT( response, shipping and Storage/Transportation and logistics) It wouldn't be appropriate for a hobbyist/outsider to give opinions or tell me what to what I should or should not do. Same applies here with hot Water and other in the industry. They are the experts! We who are not are just observers. The fact there has been good things don't matter. From what I have read here and elsewhere. The bad outweighs the good. The fact that the program has collapsed on its self is note worthy. Its what you don't see in the video that raises a flag. You don't see people working on equipment and the fact that they do not have an operational engine. Dead engines do not bring in revenue or good PR.

What HAS been accomplished?  So far, they have partially dismantled THREE steam engines, and then tore into the steam shop.  So they have FOUR projects going on at the same time, and no sign of ANY of them getting closer to being finished, which would be hard anyway, when there is basically NOBODY left in the program to do any work.  Sounds like STELLAR management to me....

The time frame from 2010 to present? Only "accomplishments" have been going from 2 operable engines to 0.

Heres what I do know. There are two versions of events that transpired at the UP steam shop leading to the departure of a certain individual who is well known as well as issues that are suggested to have been involved with 3985... Having lived in the corporate world, some events, some comments, some allegations, rumors etc never resolve the more pressing problem of moving forward. Whether what you say or they say is true or not true detracts from the job at hand. All sides play a PR game in the public purview whether by omission of details or hiding behind avatars or by using innuendo, etc.

You are, to say the least, very disgruntled about current management and it's a safe bet they are not thrilled with your public disparagement of them.

The only way a potential PR debacle can be avoided is pretty simple. UP needs to set the record straight and quash all of this nonsense by a simple status report on the scope of work being done there and their projected time frames. Perhaps we can agree on this.

Otherwise there is enough hubris to fill a couple of box cars on all sides. One thing I learned the hard way is to get in front of this kind of thing, report the facts and let the chips fall where they may. Otherwise this thread is a good example of what happens otherwise. The irony of this is that UP owes us nothing.

We want this we demand that..we fret over imagined or real slights to our expectations on a personal basis, when we are not stake holders and all the complaining has to go to those in charge, not to be left to fester by misdirection on goofy threads that go nowhere like this one. At the same time UP should just be more proactive in communicating resolutions to a potential PR problem. It takes two to tango. One side has to talk to the other directly.

As for me, all I want is steam where it belongs..either on the rails or being restored. We can perhaps agree on that as well.

Hot waters response to Electroliner answered most of my question :

electroliner, you specifically asked about the BOILER on 3985! Wahsatch Railroad Contractors did LOTS of other work for the UP steam operation, including the complete rebuild/refurbish of the two auxiliary water cars. They also installed the European Design exhaust nozzle system on 3985, which didn't work and was subsequently removed and scrapped, and her original twinge exhaust nozzle arrangement was reinstalled (which took all of 3 or 4 days). Wahsatch Railroad contractors did NOT perform any work on the boiler of 3985, as that was done by in-house employees, Ed Smith and Scott Turley, both Union Boilermaker/Welders.

in addition Dieselbob:

What HAS been accomplished?  So far, the have partially dismantled THREE steam engines, and then tore into the steam shop.  So they have FOUR projects going on at the same time, and no sign of ANY of them getting closer to being finished, which would be hard anyway, when there is basically NOBODY left in the program to do any work.  Sounds like STELLAR management to me....

So electroliner whats the issue other than Hot water and others don't agree with your view of the world.

Electroliner wrote:

At the same time UP should just be more proactive in communicating resolutions to a potential PR problem. It takes two to tango. One side has to talk to the other directly.

As for me, all I want is steam where it belongs..either on the rails or being restored. We can perhaps agree on that as well.

 That would imply, That there willing to hold somebodies feet to the fire and deal with the bad PR and the stock holders for the short term. 

In answer to your question, my interest goes back to the status of the steam program and balancing what rail fans see as a right not a privilege to have steam running and the realities behind this overall complaint. The gap between the two is filled in with opinions based on the surface of appearances from the outside looking in from a strictly circumstantial view in what could be called a piling on of woes real or not real. None of this answers anything. UP simply needs to address the status of the steam program. Those who have a complaint should direct it where it belongs..to the UP. It would seem a simple resolution. Everyone seemed more interested in listing woes here than taking the time to contact the UP. There are two sides to every story, maybe three. We have heard one side. We need to hear the other in order to make an informed opinion. This is not rocket science. 

As for me I am off to ride a train today and it's a beautiful day and all of this is a tempest in a teapot in the real world.

P.S

When I return I will do my best to get an e-mail address to express my concerns to the UP about this merry go round. If anyone has an e-mail address for Ed Dickens Id much appreciate it being shared. In other words, I am taking my own advice. If I find one..Ill share it.

Unless you are a shareholder, UP doesn't owe you or "need" to do anything. 

Taking a look at the photos of the 844's boiler is pretty much all you need to understand how the program is going downhill FAST!

Part of the problem is that if what we have been told (and I have no reason to doubt it) is that the people currently with oversight of Ed and the steam program couldn't pick a Big Boy out of a police lineup, so they likely don't even know the right questions to ask, and even if they DO ask, they are pretty much dependent on what Ed tells them. There is also the issue that if the program looks bad, they may look bad by association, so they may feel it's best to turn a blind eye for now and hope the whole issue resolves itself some other way.  If Ed gets fired because of the sexual harassment lawsuit, that would sort of take them off the hook, and the truth about how badly the program got run down might just get swept under the rug. Electroliner, there ARE some hurt feelings and a war of some sorts between Ed and some people that were associated with the program, but don't forget that it was Ed that started it, and despite that, I don't recall much of ANYTHING said publicily about him until his mistakes started showing up in public and couldn't be ignored.  Lets also not forget that as far as EMD is concerned, Ed LIED about the events leading to the 844 wheel sliding incident, and MAY have actually tampered with evidence.  That alone should have gotten him rode out of Cheyenne on a rail.

UP owes us something?  Well, it depends........

1.  As far as running steam or specail passenger trains, and that only, UP owes us nothing.

2.  IF the steam program somehow is taken as some sort of local or IRS deduction as some sort of business expense,  the the citizens of that state and all US citzens and tax payers DO have a valid right to inquire if something is going very wrong.  IF this is a tax duduction, no matter how you put it, makes this program in fact a subsidized project. (Note the IF's!!!!)

3.  If this project is distract UP from servicing its customers, then it is a concern for those customers ans stockholders.

That is, without a doubt, one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever seen on the internet. Are you actually suggesting that any business that deducts expenses for special projects gives the government and taxpayers the right to stick their nose into the business of a private company and question their decisions and policies? Good grief...

Under that scenario we would stop going to York. The taxpayers will no doubt want to know why we deducted our travel, meal and lodging expenses from our gross revenue.  

That's our man Mazoch.

The fact that you feel its your right to see steam operate is your issue not UP. The word is privilege. UP and other operators of steam depend on Corporate sponsorship and donations from we the public. No money No honey. Because of this its a privilege, not your right to see 611,844, and others in operation. Personally if you walked into my office with that attitude. I tell you to take a long hike of a short pier. Sending an Email to Mr Dickens will do nothing but fan the flames if he even bothers reading it since you don't pay his salary, nor are you on the UP board of Directors. Bottom line you have a right to express an opinion, these threads allow you to ask an educated question and learn something, but you don't have a right to openly disrespect Hot water and others in the industry and on the forum because you feel your rights have been violated as a rail fan or don't agree with you.. Once again ITS A PRIVILEGE TO SEE THESE ENGINES IN OPERATION< NOT YOU RIGHT>.

I have no doubt that many rail fans do indeed view it as a right which is just ridiculous because it most certainly is a privilege and the UP is not running steam for rail fans, it is and has always been about "Public Relations" for them...period.  Now when one looks at that PR machine now, silent and cold one does have to wonder what circumstances lead to this point...we are all aware of what has been posted on the matter so I will not re-hash this here again. 

     Now that said the UP does need to get in there and figure out just what the heck is going on with the program, the locomotives, the personnel and their money.  Granted nobody in Omaha knows anything about steam other than it's what comes out of the tea kettle on the stove when the water is ready, and what they have been told by the mgr. in Cheyenne.