Using Lionel's 6 wheel tender truck/hall effect sensor to control Lionel's early Mighty Sound of Steam

It will most likely fail. The original make and break contacts on the smoke unit carries track voltage, If you try AC track voltage through the hall effect sensor it will most likely burn it out instantly.

Chuck Sartor posted:

It will most likely fail. The original make and break contacts on the smoke unit carries track voltage, If you try AC track voltage through the hall effect sensor it will most likely burn it out instantly.

Under stand this is DC like mots of the components.

A full wave bridge in front with a suppression cap should be good for the Hall effect sensor and  with the switching circuit. I have nor really looked yet but I m sure that the Mighty Sound of Steam circuit board also is rectified.

Would this circuit work operating the Mighty Sound of Steam. this circuit would be powered by battery maybe rechargeable using small dimension type cells to get near 9 VDC.
The Mighty Sound of Steam did originally work on AC so I m sure that there is just a bridge of some type on it.
Since there is no digital circuits I do not think I would have to worry about edge triggering and the steam duration/sound should be long enough.

Be a interesting project

Any thoughts?

Many uses including:

• Counting revolutions, oscillations, or sequences
• Turning LEDs, alarms, or other devices on/off
• Detecting presence of magnetized materials
• Intruder/theft alarms
• Monitor start/stop of a moving process
• Robotic effects and magic tricks!
• For me operating the Lionel's Mighty Sound of Steam

Schematic of an example circuit included. Part number may vary from picture. Very unique!

Hall Effect Semi-Conductor Sensor (Cat. #A402) ........... $2.00 each 

Transistor is a PNP

Radio Shack:

220 ohm 1/4W 5% Carbon Film Resistor pk/5, $1.49, Model: 271-1313 Catalog #: 271-1313

1K Ohm 1/4-Watt Carbon Film Resistor (5-Pack), $1.49, Model: 271-1321 Catalog #: 271-1321

470 ohm 1/4W 5% Carbon Film Resistor pk/5, $1.49, Model: 271-1317 Catalog #: 271-1317

7-9VDC/12A SPDT Relay, Mini, $4.97, Model: 275-005 Catalog #: 275-005

PNP Amplifying Transistors (15-Pack), $3.49, Model: 2N3906 Catalog #: 276-1604

I think I'd be inclined to try to use a relay to replace the original contacts, don't know what the SOS would require, but I don't know that I'd want to have a battery in the mix.

Which brings up another question! Does, the ERR sound board support the Hall effect from Lionel.

Why use a hall sensor with it's complications when all you have to do is connect the chuff wire to ground.  A cherry switch, reed switch or the main drive rod hitting a spring contact each revolution will work.  A Hall sensor will not make SOS sound any better than it did in 1977 but will add considerable complexity.  ERR will not support a Hall sensor out of the box. There is a reason Lionel abandoned the Hall sensor. How do you make three wires do the work of one?  The Hall sensor on my L3 Mohawk generates one chuff on the original RailSounds 1 board for two revolutions of the tender wheel which = one revolution of the loco drive wheel. There are a couple of different types of Hall sensors the one Lionel used only responds to the South pole of the magnet one pass of the south pole turns it on one more pass turns it off. This is why it takes two rotations of the tender wheel to generate one chuff. I have thought about making a disk to replace the magnet on the axle in Lionel's chuff trigger. The disk would have four small magnets mounted around it's circumference all with the south pole facing out. This would give two chuffs per revolution of the tender wheels which would equal four chuffs per driver revolution.  Though they would not be in sync with the drive rods. Another way to get the four chuffs and sync them with the drivers is to move the hall sensor to the loco and mount  eight magnets around a driver.  However I am not sure four chuffs per driver revolution would work as the sound board seems to reach a saturation point at higher speeds and sounds less and less like a steam locomotive. When I installed the L2RU  board in my L3 Mohawk  I added power pickups on it's tender. The four wire tether between loco and tender just controls the rear light on the tender and shares power pickups  between loco and tender.  The RailSounds 1 board is fully functional without connecting the tether. I can clip power to the pickups and chassis and spin the wheels by hand and it will chuff. I can also spin this wheel with a motor so fast that it no longer sounds like a locomotive but more like white noise with static.  I am fairly certain the sound board cannot keep up with four chuffs per loco drive wheel at scale speeds above 60mph perhaps even as low as 40mph. The circuitry for the hall sensor is built into the board and I am not sure it is worth the trouble to bypass it and uses some other switching method for chuff.  J

Note that the Hall component you show  is a so-called "latching" sensor.  You must flip the magnet polarity to turn it off - just removing the magnet does not turn it off. 

The description does not indicate the operating DC voltage range.  If your sound board has DC powered circuitry as I'd think it would, I'd think you can power the Hall sensor with the existing DC supply.  Hall sensors are available that operate over a very wide range of DC (over 20V range) and draw very little current (a few mA) so it shouldn't burden your sound board to tag on.

I am not familiar with your sound board.  But if you can specify in electrical terms what it is you're trying to activate with your Hall sensor, I'm sure we can come up with some options.

In any event, as GRJ says, I don't think you want to mess with a battery.

stan2004 posted:

Note that the Hall component you show  is a so-called "latching" sensor.  You must flip the magnet polarity to turn it off - just removing the magnet does not turn it off. 

The description does not indicate the operating DC voltage range.  If your sound board has DC powered circuitry as I'd think it would, I'd think you can power the Hall sensor with the existing DC supply.  Hall sensors are available that operate over a very wide range of DC (over 20V range) and draw very little current (a few mA) so it shouldn't burden your sound board to tag on.

I am not familiar with your sound board.  But if you can specify in electrical terms what it is you're trying to activate with your Hall sensor, I'm sure we can come up with some options.

In any event, as GRJ says, I don't think you want to mess with a battery.

What I have are two new Lionel 6 wheel tender trucks Only going to use one for the circuit) and both are fitted with the hall effect sensor and cam assembly and would like to use what is there.
The Sensor shown in the diagram may not be the same part number that I have on the trucks. I will check tonight.
If it is not I will pull up the data sheet to find if it is a latching type or not (hopefully not).
I will also check the power on the Steam board and as you suggested running the DC voltage of of this board hope fully it will be in range.
With the tender there is a real estate problem as being lowered. 
I also have two 6-16655 Railsound tenders but the PCB with speaker take up a lot of room. Will have to look again as this tender sits to high to be behind the 221. I will also check this out to see if there is anyway I can lower it on the frame.

I m looking to add a generic steam/whistle sound that the 221 stream line Loco never had. 
Not looking for anything prototypical just fun and to have a tender behind with the 6 wheel trucks

JohnActon posted:

Why use a hall sensor with it's complications when all you have to do is connect the chuff wire to ground.  A cherry switch, reed switch or the main drive rod hitting a spring contact each revolution will work.  A Hall sensor will not make SOS sound any better than it did in 1977 but will add considerable complexity.  ERR will not support a Hall sensor out of the box. There is a reason Lionel abandoned the Hall sensor. How do you make three wires do the work of one?  The Hall sensor on my L3 Mohawk generates one chuff on the original RailSounds 1 board for two revolutions of the tender wheel which = one revolution of the loco drive wheel. There are a couple of different types of Hall sensors the one Lionel used only responds to the South pole of the magnet one pass of the south pole turns it on one more pass turns it off. This is why it takes two rotations of the tender wheel to generate one chuff. I have thought about making a disk to replace the magnet on the axle in Lionel's chuff trigger. The disk would have four small magnets mounted around it's circumference all with the south pole facing out. This would give two chuffs per revolution of the tender wheels which would equal four chuffs per driver revolution.  Though they would not be in sync with the drive rods. Another way to get the four chuffs and sync them with the drivers is to move the hall sensor to the loco and mount  eight magnets around a driver.  However I am not sure four chuffs per driver revolution would work as the sound board seems to reach a saturation point at higher speeds and sounds less and less like a steam locomotive. When I installed the L2RU  board in my L3 Mohawk  I added power pickups on it's tender. The four wire tether between loco and tender just controls the rear light on the tender and shares power pickups  between loco and tender.  The RailSounds 1 board is fully functional without connecting the tether. I can clip power to the pickups and chassis and spin the wheels by hand and it will chuff. I can also spin this wheel with a motor so fast that it no longer sounds like a locomotive but more like white noise with static.  I am fairly certain the sound board cannot keep up with four chuffs per loco drive wheel at scale speeds above 60mph perhaps even as low as 40mph. The circuitry for the hall sensor is built into the board and I am not sure it is worth the trouble to bypass it and uses some other switching method for chuff.  J

Hi John. sounds like you played around a lot with on this subject.
The reason for the sensors is that they are already on the new Lionel 6 wheel trucks and thank you for the info as they are not the latching type.
I did use a micro-switch years ago on a LGB. Made a cam for the axle and mounted the switch. This was installed in a nail car that sat behind the loco. It worked good but the problem is that the opening and closing noise of the switch was noticeable.
The read switch may be good and would like to see if the stock magnet on the switch could close it.
As far as the 4 chuffs per drive wheel revolution, there would be a problem and as you stated, if the loco is going fast enough it would just be white noise coming out

RonH posted:

... planning to use Lionel's 6 wheel trucks with the hall effect sensor.  I would like this sensor to control a early Mighty Sound of Steam (working board) and not with a open close switch as it was with the original. Reason for this board is the physical size with a smaller speaker...

If the truck uses a non-latching Hall sensor (as I think you confirmed in your most recent post), then the next trick is to determine whether its output can directly connect to one of the two wires as used in the original "open-close switch"... and if so which one.  If you have this all figured out, great.  Otherwise post some photos of the circuitry near/around the 2-wire switch input and we can determine if it's just a matter of connecting one of the wires to DC common.  I say DC-common rather than ground because if the board indeed uses a bridge-rectifier to derive DC power for the sound electronics, then that is not the same as frame/chassis ground and you will be on your way to a magic smoke event!

While reed switches have become smaller and smaller...and to your point, silent relative to a Cherry switch...I don't think you will get it to be as small as a Hall sensor since it appears that size-matters in this case.

If for assembly/mounting purposes you want to stay with the truck as-is and its Hall sensor, then similar to your diagram you could use a relay to emulate an open-close switch.  There are fairly tiny relays (much smaller than your Radio Shack).  Again, this would be if you find the existing Hall sensor cannot easily/directly connect to the existing sound board's trigger wire(s).

It's hard for me to imagine the hall effect sensor directly driving the SOS board, but I could be wrong.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's hard for me to imagine the hall effect sensor directly driving the SOS board, but I could be wrong. Thinking about the sensor control circuit to uperate a reals as the control on the Mighty Sound of Steams is just closing a switch.

Closing a relay with the hall effect sensor makes more sense, that's what I suggested a while back.

Can you post a photo of the board so I (we) can see what kind of DC circuitry is on the board?  If you go the Hall-sensor driving a relay approach, we need to know what DC voltages are available and if it has enough spare capacity to drive a relay.  A Hall sensor typically consume only a few mA, and when triggered can only drive a few mA.  So you may need a transistor (as shown in your earlier diagram) to boost the current to drive a relay coil.  And of course you need to choose a relay coil voltage that is available or created.

I suppose the relay approach is the most likely to succeed...but if you're interested in drama and intrigue, I think there's a reasonable chance a Hall Sensor alone can trigger your board (again, a picture would be worth a thousand words).  Assuming there is DC circuitry on the board, and even though this is decades-old technology, I can't imagine why you'd want lots of current flowing through the 2-wire trigger switch.  That is, as I understand it, a momentary trigger activates a much longer "chuff" sound.  In other words, that switch is not carrying the load current but rather something that triggers something else that carries a higher load (audio) current.  Anyway, even in absence of a schematic, using a basic multimeter you can measure those 2 switch wires to determine the so-called open-circuit DC voltage and the closed-circuit DC current which would tell you the trigger electrical requirement.  If you can then read off the Hall sensor part number, its specs can be examined for compatibility.  Yeah, kind of geeky and your head is probably spinning so I will cease and desist.

In any event, even if going the relay approach, additional info about the existing sound board circuit would help to reduce cost, size, complexity of the added circuitry.

Ron, here is one of the reed switches I have  about 12mm long x 2mm around I think you need a normally open for your purpose. I am curious how they would react to the round magnet on the axle.

Just so I understand what we're dealing with, are these the items in question?

If so, can you read a part number on the Hall sensor?

How does the magnet work on the wheel axle?

As for small reed switches, DigiKey has this 5mm long body:

As for sensitivity, if you have as much space for the magnet as shown on the photo above, I'm sure that would be able to trip one of these miniature reed switches.  But in the big scheme of things, the idea is a magnetic field moving some reeds which of course have some weight.  In a Hall sensor you're using that same magnetic field to move some electrons via the so-called Hall-effect.  Electrons weigh less than a reed so I wonder which method would win a sensitivity contest.

While counting chuffs tonight on a loco where some time ago I added a reed switch and 4 magnets on a drive wheel.  It is rather hard when you have 4 chuffs per driver rev. to tell if the chuffs are timed perfect or not. Looking at the cross head on one side of the loco from full forward to full rear 4 chuffs come so close together that any speed above an absolute crawl and you just couldn't see the miss timing if it did exist. Guess that is a vote in favor of a Hall sensor on a tender wheel.  IF ! it does not latch and you can get two chuffs per rev. Though the sensor in my L3 Mohawk tender is latching and has to turn 3 Rev to get two chuffs. The question this raises for me is the latching occurring at the sensor or in the supporting circuit.  When I finish installing the motors and TMCC boards on my Atlas Erie Built which is occupying my work bench at the moment, I will tear into the Mohawk and see. J

The latching is probably occurring with the sensor itself, it's not getting the reverse magnetic field to flip it back.

One way to get the chuffs timed perfectly. Chuff-Generator

I took the sound boards to work so I can get some pictures (both do work).
Looks like there is no bridge rectifier just a diode (Half rectified) with a large cap to help smooth things out.
This is a simple circuit as the original switch just turned AC power on or off to the sound board. So every-time the switch is close the circuit would turn on to generate the white noise (simulating a steam sound). The sound duration is controlled by how long the connection stay on.
I just used a AC wall plug that I have at my work and it has a 9 VAC output rated at 1 amp.
The sound board pulls about 90 ma.

With the board only on during a steam cycle I will not be able to pull power from that. So I will either have to use a battery (9 volt rechargeable) or make a bridge rectifier to supply DC power to the Hall Effect switching/relay circuit.

I will get the hall effect sensor number on Friday as I brought the wrong 6-wheel  trucks to take a picture.

On the last picture, note the two diodes on the lower left, both are connected to one of the power leads coming in. The round one (not sure what type will look it up later) looks to be the rectifier and the other end goes to a trace where the large 470 uf cap is (filter?).

Plan "B" will be the read switch trying to use the existing magnet on the truck that is used for the hall effect sensor.

Remember, "No Problems Just Solution

JohnActon posted:

Ron, here is one of the reed switches I have  about 12mm long x 2mm around I think you need a normally open for your purpose. I am curious how they would react to the round magnet on the axle.

This will be my plan "B". Thank you.

Unless you like tinkering with electronic projects, I think what you want to do is over complicated. If I was doing your same project, and wanted 6 wheel trucks I would use the tender trucks from Lionel's 8003 Chessie 2-8-4. It has a make and break set of contacts for the early SOS board. You will get approx. 2 chuffs per driver revolution.  The trucks have a small wheelbase so it won't look so out of place with the 221. Lot less complicated and more reliable. 

Chuck Sartor posted:

Unless you like tinkering with electronic projects, I think what you want to do is over complicated. If I was doing your same project, and wanted 6 wheel trucks I would use the tender trucks from Lionel's 8003 Chessie 2-8-4. It has a make and break set of contacts for the early SOS board. You will get approx. 2 chuffs per driver revolution.  The trucks have a small wheelbase so it won't look so out of place with the 221. Lot less complicated and more reliable. 

Thanks Chuck, I did not know that these trucks existed. I will be on the look out for them

If you need, contact me via profile, I have 1 in stock.

RonH posted:

Chuck Sartor posted:

Unless you like tinkering with electronic projects, I think what you want to do is over complicated. If I was doing your same project, and wanted 6 wheel trucks I would use the tender trucks from Lionel's 8003 Chessie 2-8-4. It has a make and break set of contacts for the early SOS board. You will get approx. 2 chuffs per driver revolution.  The trucks have a small wheelbase so it won't look so out of place with the 221. Lot less complicated and more reliable. 

Thanks Chuck, I did not know that these trucks existed. I will be on the look out for them

Hi Chuck, just looked up the Lionel's 8003 Chess 2-8-4 and it looks like it has a wire going to the engine, where a switch is. The tender looks as if it only has a pickup (axle wipers) for the power from the outside rails. If you have one could you send me a picture so that I keep on the look out for these trucks?

My error. 8002 UP 2-8-4. There are some pictures on the net of this truck if you Google Lionel 8002.

Chuck Sartor posted:

My error. 8002 UP 2-8-4. There are some pictures on the net of this truck if you Google Lionel 8002.

Thank you again

I'll check the price when I get to work a little later. To compliment this truck, and not have to run any wires back to the locomotive, the rear truck you can add a pick-up roller and ground strap and have a totally self contained SOS tender that can be used behind any engine.

Chuck Sartor posted:

I'll check the price when I get to work a little later. To compliment this truck, and not have to run any wires back to the locomotive, the rear truck you can add a pick-up roller and ground strap and have a totally self contained SOS tender that can be used behind any engine.

I have one 6 wheel truck with a pick-up roller and Knuckle coupler. I believe it is post war from a 2671W tender as there is no flanges on the center wheels and it is a older type knuckle coupler (wich I like).
just hope the side of the truck matches mine to yours, if not I have some extras and will make things work Think your truck with the center wheel flange is longer.

The trucks would not be a match. the newer ones are a tad longer. Not sure how you would have used the wheelset with magnet as the sideframes on the postwar truck will not hold the tapered axle of the newer style wheels.

Chuck Sartor posted:

The trucks would not be a match. the newer ones are a tad longer. Not sure how you would have used the wheelset with magnet as the sideframes on the postwar truck will not hold the tapered axle of the newer style wheels.

I do not have the other 6 wheel trucks with the magnet and sensor with me (two of the same/no coupler), they are home. I will check later tonight.

Game changer, I have pictures of two new 6 wheel trucks with hall effect sensors. There is no coupler attached and I do not know if I can attach a coupler where the sensor mounts to be s able to use these. Maybe someone might know? Going price on eBay for one 6 wheel truck with a coupler is $28.oo and up (plus shipping). These new 6 wheel trucks look like they are die-cast and do not know how long they would last (zinc-pest).

The other option is to use the post war 6-wheel trucks. On already has a coupler with pick-up. The not coupler 6-wheel truck also has a pickup for the center rail. What I would do is to remove the Pick-up with the bracket that holds it between the two axles.  Make a slide on cam for one of the end axles and glue it in place. Do not know how many lobs as I have to calculate the drive wheel diameter to the tender wheel and try to get it for 4 revolutions if I can (or somewhere close). Then to uses a miniature micro switch with a long arm to ride on the cam. This switch will be glues onto the bottom of the truck frame.  Should work by doing some adjusting. Then run the a wire from the center rail pick-up to the switch and then attach another wire from the other switch connection to the Sound board and to attach the other sound board wire to the frame.

Do you think this is a better approach for this post war 221 streamline loco?

Trucks with hall effect sensors:

Post war trucks

Post war to new truck comparison, note that the post war have a shorter length.

A magnet and a reed switch from Electric railroad would do the trick much more simply than all of this discussion so far.

Don't know how well the cam idea will work with postwar trucks. Remember the wheels spin on the axle, so the axle won't turn with the wheels.

Chuck Sartor posted:

Don't know how well the cam idea will work with postwar trucks. Remember the wheels spin on the axle, so the axle won't turn with the wheels.

Thanks for pointing thAt out (overlooked it). Solution would be to mout a cam on the inside of one of the truck outer wheels. The cam would be made with axle clearans. Cam coul be made out of brass and solderedglued to the wheel or made of plastic and glued to the wheel. Cam duration should be fun to experiment with.

Thanks for the heads up Chuck.

RoyBoy posted:

A magnet and a reed switch from Electric railroad would do the trick much more simply that all of this discussion so far.

Looked at the Electric Railroad site as you suggested. The setup is really simple, just have to contact them for the price of the magnet and read switch. Also have to find out what the current raiting for the switch is, The sound board only draw 90ma at 9 vac, it should be good. Thanks for the info.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The latching is probably occurring with the sensor itself, it's not getting the reverse magnetic field to flip it back.

One way to get the chuffs timed perfectly. Chuff-Generator

Then that is the way Lionel designed it, as the sensor and magnet have not be altered, nor the circuit board. Problem is, it only gives one chuff for two revolutions of the tender wheels, one for the drivers.  I have four locos from the 89~91 period with RS-1 and all only give one chuff per driver rev.  Used a compass to mark N and S poles of the magnet on the tender wheel and it only triggers a chuff on the S pole and then only every other rev. The N pole seems to have no effect on the sensor at all.   I am going to make a replacement disk  for the magnet on another wheel set using some small 1mm X  3mm  disk magnets with the S pole facing out and try 2 and 4 magnets on the disk.  I am not so interested in smoke output in relation to the sound as I have chronic pleurisy and bronchitis  I usually turn the smoke off unless I am showing off for company.  I do wish I could find a smoke fluid that did not set of the pleurisy.   J

Hate to keep raining on your parade Ron, but the cam on the wheel idea probably won't work out either. It will probably foul going through the guard rails on the switches and operating rails on uncoupling tracks.

Chuck Sartor posted:

Hate to keep raining on your parade Ron, but the cam on the wheel idea probably won't work out either. It will probably foul going through the guard rails on the switches and operating rails on uncoupling tracks.

No problem Chuck, always open for suggestions, this is how I learn. Like to get a as much info as I can then sort it out. I was also thinking about switches and uncoupled tracks as a section is always raised in the center. This is where I relished tha the cam would have to be a small diameter. I did look up the Electric Railroad site and the way they did the magnet on the side of the wheel with the read switch was kind of nice. If you get a chance look it up. It is kind of hard to locate it on there site, I believe it was in one of the instruction sections

Hi Ron, I am familiar with the ERR set-up. (I am a official ERR technician installer)

a.) the magnet is mounted to a wheel that is fixed to the axle, not loose spinning on the axle like postwar trucks.

b.) the magnet is smaller that you would be able to make a mechanical cam to trip a mirco-switch.

c.) the reed and magnet set-up will not handle regular AC track voltage to operate the sound of steam board. The reeds in the switch will either fuse themselves together or burn out prematurely.

d.) physical room inside the truck for a mirco switch.