What age demographic should O Gauge Manufacturers concentrate on?

None. Age has nothing to do with it. I like today what I liked when I was 10 or 12.

Sure when your older you can afford more, but when your young is when it leaves a greater impression. What creates the drive? Seeing it, and playing with it, having it as a child.

Focus on a product and hit it out of the ballpark as far as realism... you will have  a follower for life.

Just look at the 700e scale Hudson and the scale freight cars. Still always sought after. 

Younger train fans want to run what they see in real life- that means intermodal and Autorack unit trains pulled by diesels. These may not be exciting to older train guys who actually saw alot of steam engines and older rolling stock, but it's what the younger crowd usually likes and wants to replicate at home. I'm sure there are some under-50 train fans who are into steamers as well, but unless they have the disposable income, they're not gonna pop for a $1000+ engine. I never get bored watching a lash up of 20+ Autoracks, or a triple-headed intermodal consist that's over 50' long, but that's just me.

Space is also an issue that affects most of us. I had a 20 x 20 L-shaped layout a few years ago, but it never got past the benchwork stage because my better half didn't like not being able to use her family room. The layout came down, but I saved some of my 2 x 6 bench modules that will get re-used on my second attempt. It will be a shelf-style layout with modules that are 2-3' wide at most and can be broken down when not in use. An even narrower 12" to 18" wide shelf can be used and still pack alot of scenery and interest into a small space- this would make O gauge more appealing to people looking to do more than just run trains on the carpet or floor. And it's a layout that's gonna keep new O gaugers interested in the hobby.

Geno

With Williams going for fancy electronics, finding an affordable starter set has just gotten harder. I'm sure that the Lionchief sets are nice, but something needs to be made that people of ANY age on a budget can enjoy. As to who to market to, Lionel used to market to women (who buy the gifts), men (who want to play with them - for the kids, of course), and kids (who will want to expand the "Empire-to-be"). Look at families at Christmas displays: the interest is still there. But the product is NOT (and don't say how much the trains cost way back when - I'm willing to bet that a lot of us got "this year's present" from "last year's day-after sales).

Market to families, advertise in women's magazines and the "Parade", "Weekender", etc. found in the Sunday papers.

I like how MTH offers starter sets with SD70ACe's because I actually see them in life.  I like steam locomotives too but it sometimes nice to be able to replicate what you see on a daily basis.  I still think Lionel is missing out by not having a near scale SD70ACe or ES44AC starter set locomotive. 

I could not help but remember part of an interview with Lionel Cowen. When asked why he painted his trains bright colors, instead of realistic paint schemes. He replied to attract mothers who then would by them for their children. I think this still holds true to day. Good advertising and whole family interest are needed. This makes targeting hard.

I think they are on the right track. Lionchief ,formerly Trainchief may not be as high end, but does a great job of filling in the middle and their latest low end sets, like my Lionchief scout, are good at grabbing attention and compared to what I grew up with are extremely advanced. As long as they stay connected with their customers they will find the right market to sell to.

Same applies for MTH. I do not have any of their products yet. Seems more like they start lower mid range and go up, nothing wrong with this, just an observation.

I just hope the lessons learned in the 60's into the 80's in the model train market remain learned and passed down.

From what is posted above, about kids wanting to operate what they see in real lifel....sounds like everybody needs to get their kids to Strasburg, Cass, Silverton, etc.

I rarely see modern trains, unless one goes by while I am photographing an old station

or grain elevator.   I see boxy diesels that I can't tell, and have no interest learning,

one from the other, followed by anonymous rows of rusty, graffittied oversized

boxcars with indistinguishable alphabetic reporting marks.  About as interesting to me

as the architecture of a block of Russian apartment houses.   If that is what THEY see

in real life, no wonder they'd rather play with their phones.

In my opinion reality and changes in real railroading have had an enormous impact on train modeling.

The appeal to kids being lessened is understandable and that of the older crowd is as well. My back is bothering me hence this comment is being written in the wee hours to distract from the aches..none the less...

I think the answer is twofold. Ask yourself how many consists sold to kids are powered by modern diesels and yet carry long ago discarded equipment like forty foot slogan boxcars, short tankers,old heavyweights, obsolete streamliners and early  even cabooses instead of end of end of train devices?  Why is the transition period between steam and diesel power the predominate era modeled? Why are long ago discarded road names dominating the market? The simple answer is what existed back in the day was more variety.  How many folks rode trains back in the day compared to now? How many everyday folks were employed by the roads, as hostlers, firemen, station agents, passenger conductors, Pullman porters,crossing guards, freight handlers etc, etc. A comparatively enormous percentage were involved or interacted one way or another with railroads. Do consists and equipment match what is used now thats marketed to kids? How many kids have seen a living steam locomotive, a PA, a Shark, or an F unit, etc? How many regional or Class One’s once existed with a local and distinct flavor like the Monon, the Lackawanna, the Rocket Island and their Rockets? What do we have here in the U.S now? Three maybe four roads if you include KCS? The consists are as monolithic as to type. All of the above explains to me the disparity in the demographics of involvement in the hobby. Lets face it we are in love with what are to kids today essentially non existent antiques confined to museums. This also explains the growing steam excursion or tourist operations as seeing something rare ..very different from today's experience, hence their popularity.

Philip Hastings said that with the passing of the steam era, train watching comparatively became the equivalent of watching a conveyor belt. Ours run in circles.

I wouldn't go so far but close.

The cure for the demographic shrinkage?

Stop making adult toys for kids.Kids do not need electronics to have play value at an age where they get hooked. By the time they are teenagers and do get into electronics guess what? They want a I phone, a laptop, etc..model trains with push buttons that go around in a circle? Give me a break. How many of us ditched trains at puberty? 99%.

The secondary causes are the lack of no frills very basic, cheaply made simple to use, conventional run basic sets using equipment actually seen by kids ..We need more Amtrak sets, more basic non complicated accessories with play value, not blinking billboards..we need play figures...trucks and forklifts, even small plastic basic container ships with loads  .Take a page from the hugely successful Marx playsets. Why do we think LEGO is so popular? we need more investment in media advertising using these advantages. Isnt that what the owners of these companies did that kept them gong for decades? I love the hobby but daydreaming or the current status wont save it.It will continue to shrink unless manufacturers wake up and smell the coffee burning.They are about as insular as a hobby gets. I give ( is anyone) Lionel a lot of credit but what are they thinking? North of the Mason-Dixon line or West of the Mississippi NASCAR interest is about as popular as horse sulky racing. Wheres the play value in a Sponge Bob Boxcar? Frankly I think the market for grade school kids is horribly mismanaged, even incompetent. Want to change the demographics? It doesnt happen with aging boomers.

Start them young 3 years old and up.. and make it affordable, fun and easy to use.

The reason why "most" younger folks can not afford O scale etc is the price, Lionel has always been expensive going way back to the 1930's-- plus there stage in life. I remember when I was in my 20's I didn't have a huge basement or attic and all I could afford was N scale. N scale is very inexpensive compared to O plus it doesn't eat up huge real estate in your home. When I go to a train shows and look at the Ntrak module (huge layout) there are some older folks but lots of kids (running trains and participating) and younger adults that belong to that club.

Now that I am older I spend money like a "drunken sailor on leave" and the last I checked "you can not take it with you".

Yes, but did you stick with the hobby straight through from childhood to oldguyhood?

Very, very few people stay in the hobby continuously. They get a train as a kid, and play with it until they discover girls and cars. Girls and cars and the consequences thereof (i.e. marriage, children, house, job) consume much of their time until they're in their mid 50's to early 60's. Then they find that they need something to do.

There are a LOT of potential old guys out there just waiting in the wings to get into the hobby, whether they know it or not. One day, they will remember that train they had as a kid, and it's all downhill from there.

What I don't understand is, why we can't just admit that this is predominantly an old man's hobby?

So, what I gather from this thread is that 3 rail O-gauge is basically a hobby that in order do "right" you have to be a rich old man (seems there's a lot of hobbies in the same demographic boat these days). I have been told that before, but even though I am not rich and only now beginning to get old, it hasn't stopped me from enjoying the hobby my way.

No wonder the death of 3 rail O-gauge is worried about so much here. Unless there's some kind of miracle in the next few years there's gonna be a lot fewer rich old men and a lot more "less rich" people of any age or gender. It would seem that in order to survive, manufacturers would want to cater to more younger, less affluent people to stay in business.

That means more O27 type trains sold in places like Wal-Mart or even Big Lots, that can run in smaller places and controlled by some simple means, whether conventional transformers or perhaps a simple battery RC system. What O gauge will need is another Louis Marx who can produce durable, inexpensive toy trains (some that are very detailed too) that can get people, young and old alike, on limited incomes, into model railroading or at least 3 rail O-gauge trains as a lifetime hobby. An inexpensive foot in the door that may get more people interested in more expensive trains at some point in their lives.

3 rail tons of fun. N & HO scales is all about cost and size. Less cost & less real estate for similar layouts.

Well to me..any age.. But more like the 12 +  it mainly depends on the person.if they like realistic looking or not....heck I'm 46..and thanks to my grandpa I wouldn't be a train fan..he got me started at age 5...if he was still alive.he would poop his pants to see how far these train have evolved.... With there looks and sounds..all my trains are scale o gauge and if he saw them he would be proud of me..and probley be alittle bit jellious too....his trains where 027..

an age demo that can afford the "TOY" trains being manufactured now.

Have you looked at some of the prices in the major manufacturers catalogs lately???

$300,$400,$500.............upwards of $1000-$2000 just for locomotives.

That's not a very good way to get new blood into the hobby.

And I didn't even mention the price of rolling stock. There are pieces I would love to run on my board, but at $60-$80 each...........I think not. Not when I can go to the train show and pick up used items for $5-$20 each and put together a complete train for under $100.

I think entry level sets that easily interface with iPads would be the key to growing the hobby.  Every kid I know has an iPad and/or a smartphone.  We are never going to win the war against the electronic interface with this generation, so we might as well join them... and them US.  

A decent amount of the O-gauge I own was bought second hand because of the cost of new items.  Even HO and N Gauge locomotives especially equipped with Sound and DCC has gotten expensive too in the last few years. I agree even $300 is alot of money for a single locomotive. I wish Lionel still had some of cheaper conventional locomotives for around $100.  One of my favorite conventional locomotives I have is a Lionel Docksider Switcher that was a really nice locomotive for around $100.  Still though it pretty easy to find new locomotives and equipment at discount from some of the larger dealers. 

Then I ain't going!

Jerry

You wrote pretty much what I would, that it makes sense to target older, more settled people, who will have the money and space for a layout. I also agree that they need to find a way to introduce these trains to younger people today,so that when they get older, they might think of it.

In terms of getting younger people involved, I kind of wonder if clubs with three rail o gauge may be the way to go. Many kids in their 20's and even in their 30's tend to live in rentals that won't have a lot of space, so a club would allow them to be involved, maybe run some equipment of their own, and otherwise be exposed. Makes you wonder if perhaps clubs should become a focus for the hobby, and also in making clubs a bit more friendly to those who are younger and/or may be newbies to the hobby (this is not aimed at any particular club, just a general observation). Put it this way, I have seen club application forms that looked more to me like an application for the CIA then a club encouraging new members, I could see why a newbie who brings little but enthusiasm feeling like they won't be wanted. 

Along with clubs, I think things like modular layouts, holiday displays and the like would go a long way. It would be kind of cool to have tv characters with layouts, I could see someone like Gibbs on NCIS having one, I think of the old Addams Family tv show, for example, anything like that will go a long way to keeping these in the eyes of all, while marketing to the 'older' set . 

Well as you old guys die off, we become the old guys

Someone has to take ownership of our stuff.  Would hate to see it go to a landfill (or more in line with the times, a recycling center).

What, me worry?

I think Lionel is starting to do the right thing by targeting people at all ends of the spectrum.  The scale offerings are second to none now targeted at the serious older people in the hobby.  Yet JUST LOOK at what they are doing at the lower end.  LionChief has totally re-engergized the starter set market.  And then look at the branding they are doing.  Batman (and I assume other DC Comics sets to come).  Frosty, the dinosaur set, etc.  These are the sets that will draw kids in. 

The critical importance I see about the LionChief is how they are able to get the cost down.  Last Christmas, like it or not, Amazon was selling the Polar Express LionChief and the Penn Flyer set for around $120.  Because of these low prices, many deal sites across the internet were alerted.  So you had thousands of people who likely were not already in the hobby, buying these sets for Christmas.  Amazon vs LHS argument aside, this was a GREAT thing for the hobby.  The low prices gave Lionel the exposure nothing else possibly could.  I wish I knew just how many of these were sold last December but it must have been thousands upon thousands.  At $120, you are getting in the price range of many other toys.

So my point is, I think Lionel is doing a superb job in these past couple of years.  They are not putting out starter sets anymore with PowerMax transformers and underpowered un-smoking trains sold only in the LHS for $300.  They have really shaken things up and everyone benefits from it.  Just think of how many kids received those sets from Amazon last Christmas.   

The only reason Lionel has a business is because people our age,for whatever reason, are buying their high end products.I can assure you they are not surviving on selling $175.00 train sets. 

Think again Nick. How long have the high end scale products been in the Lionel line? The last 20 or so years, and yet Lionel has survived all those other years selling train sets and all the other related products.

In 2012, Lionel CEO Jerry Calabrese said, "Lionel's customers include several thousand serious model railroaders, several million people who just run a train set under the Christmas tree and everyone in between. We can't just pull out of areas where it is harder for us to make or sell products. We don't have the luxury of focusing on just one segment of the market."

I'm sure Lionel was and is very happy with sales and success of the Polar Express train set. You don't hear much talk on this forum about the many train sets like the Peanuts sets, which are made in the multiple thousands.

Or Lionel's excitement with the new Frosty the Snowman set... they wouldn't be excited if they didn't expect good sales. Or with the LionChief and LionChief Plus items, which have already been proven to be successful. In addition, hardly any of the starter sets have the related tooling costs to be recuperated as do many of the higher end scale items.

Truth be told, Lionel needs all the customers they can get, which means having products that appeal to a wide variety of buyers. Years ago, I heard someone from Lionel say they could survive without the high end scale products. It would hurt them, but they could survive. But they couldn't survive without the broader traditional products and the starter sets.

I trust the folks at Lionel have some idea of what they are doing. Dick Kughn in his recent Notch6 interview mentioned here on this forum, said as much.

I'm always reminded of what Jerry Calabrese once said when asked why Lionel doesn't have more bonafide hobbyists working for Lionel. He responded that they are not able to set aside their own interests and agendas for the sake of the overall health of the company.

I would gather from reading this forum, that is quite true.

Target them all. Trains are an ageless tradition.

I agree with Gilly....

I think it's a matter of volume related to the scale of production to entice the very young versus a shrinking and aging customer base with an interest in railroading as it existed more than a half century ago. Which one has a future..long term?

While I lauded Lionel as having done the best job of expanding their markets by having a spectrum of product types, I still think ( like everything) it could be improved by the "playset" concept using contemporary prototypes. 

I dont worry about the future of the hobby, but I dont think 1,000.00 to 1,200.00 dollar engines has much of a long shelf life as viable long term strategy. Look at how the so called catalogs are actually voting blocks...Polar Express is a brilliant product but...so were Mickey Mouse or Frontiersman sets back in the day. For my money, the playset concept is still viable...thats what built AF and Lionel..the idea that you can do more with trains that watch them run circles around themselves.

Off the top of my head I can think of many playset concepts..involving trucks, spaceships, boats, etc as loads that could be used with inexpensive buildings ramps, launchers..none of this stuff needs to be high tech..it shouldn't be for that age group.

Thats my thought of the day for better or worse.

Case in point: Here is a listing right on the OGR forum for two sets. One at $50

and one at $20. Have fun!!!

https://ogrforum.com/t...73#37470280380405573