What makes a collectable?

Rule of thumb, anything labeled as a collectable isn't.

When most people think of collectable, they are thinking of stuff that has a defined market and usually defined "values" (prices).

My one personal definition is different. Anything that holds interest for an individual, causing that person to seek out and purchase is collectable to that person.

People collect all sorts of things. I doubt you can name something that doesn't have a group of collectors, although it might be a small group.

I will agree with John, anything made and sold as a collectable isn't.
Just this morning I saw a thread about the current market for collectable cars.
Lionel must have sold quite a few. Today they are very hard to sell at any price.

I have long thought that Lionel leverages the instant collectable mentality, and continues to do so today.

It's simple:  Buy what you like, enjoy it, don't worry about resale or "collector's value."

Rusty

Having been around this hobby since the mid-1960's during childhood, many of us have experienced the "rebirth" of Lionel-branded trains in the 1970's and 1980's... just when we thought post-war Lionel trains were gone for good.  And slowly but surely, reproductions of many Lionel postwar favorites hit the market... and folks grabbed them up wondering whether Lionel 1969 was just around the corner again.

Guess what?  It wasn't.    And the technology treadmill kept obsoleting newly built trains rather than make them long-term collectibles.

Bottom line... Generally speaking, toy train collectibles seem "collectible" for only a VERY short moment-in-time... namely the so-called "hot items", which is all a farce anyway.  Stuff that was considered highly collectible in 1985 (remember Lionel's "Collector Line"?) can't be given away today!   

Even Lionel post-war "originals" don't carry the price clout they did back when reproductions were being issued.  I can remember when newly built Fairbanks Morse Train Masters were re-issued around 1980-ish for $159 or so.  And some of the the original post-war FM's were pushing $750+.  You just don't see those kind of prices nowadays for those items.

We just can never seem to predict all the elements that must converge in order for something to be a true, long-term collectible.  And even if we got 90% of it right, it's the 10% wild-card factor that can disrupt the entire apple cart. 

David

If you are focusing on the value part, it follows what John and CW said.

The reason items from the past become collectable is because very low low numbers (compared to today) were intentionally squirreled away for future sale, which is not what happens today.  People are trained to think (by collectable industry, including some model train companies) things should be stored unused and then reap a huge profit someday.  Problem is everyone is doing it, so there is no shortage when people try to "cash in".

Post War trains in general were played with.  Hence why they are readily available in the secondary market, but a very nice condition item can be more scarce and carry a higher value.  There was a (unfortunately deleted) thread around a week ago regarding a box of old Post War rocket launcher rockets (5 of the 6 that were in the master box, all in their baggies) that sold for over $2500.  You will never see 5 standard PW rockets sell for $2500 if they are just loose parts, even if in good condition.  This item was because it was not as common as if you just collected 5 rockets and sold them together.

There is a great example in the baseball card world.  Anyone remotely into baseball cards knows of the 1952 Topps set, and the standard stars (Mickey Mantle, etc).  There is a story of another player, named Andy Pafko that is actually one of the most valuable parts of the set.

Casual observers would say "who the heck is Andy Pafko?" (no disrespect meant to Mr Pafko or his career).

The thing here is, kids in the 50's also used baseball cards to put in the spokes of their bicycles to make noise with.  Many sets are arranged in numerical order when assembled.  Andy Pafko was the card numbered "1" in the set, so was often on top.  As a result, the number of surviving Andy Pafko cards in good condition from the 1952 set took a huge hit.  Link to Andy Pafko card info from PSA graders.

Nothing like that happens today.  Ask all the people who were going to fund their retirement with Beanie Babies from the late 90's.  A lot of people had similar ideas, so most are worthless.

If you are collecting because you like something, your set of 6464 boxcars is still collectable, and it's now a relatively easy thing to collect.  Most of the modern 6464 series cars can now be had for little money (the ten 3 packs and also the single add-on pieces, of which I forget exactly how many there are). 

You may pay a slight premium for the 1st set, but that's about it.  Years ago, it was standard for the  "6464 Series One" set to sell for $300 or maybe more, and people used to try to get $1000 for the 10 sets, (driven by the 1st set value mostly), but I believe those days are in the past.

-Dave

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Rule of thumb, anything labeled as a collectable isn't.

Bravo, SO TRUE!!! Just a marketing ploy aimed at those folks not in the knowledgeable loop.

#Dave

Thanks, well put, sir, and thanks for the flashback to baseball cards in the spokes. FUN

yes, I am playing with, not collecting.

collectible=whenever 2 or more people desire something.

ogaugeguy posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Rule of thumb, anything labeled as a collectable isn't.

Bravo, SO TRUE!!! Just a marketing ploy aimed at those folks not in the knowledgeable loop.

Folks can collect the same items for different goals.  I knew a fellow who collected just cabooses, had hundreds.  Some collect an era within a finite period (PW, MPC, etc etc) while others limit collecting to certain roads.    Bottom line, the sport of collecting still lives and can be anything you want it to be.  

joe

Look at past collectible--the worse in recent memory was Beanie babies. I knew grown men collecting those with retirement plans based on resale, Baseball cards/sports cards in general, etc. Anything made, marketed and sold as a collectible 99 times out of 100 is not. True are because they were never meant to be

Miggy,

   Collectables - Pre 1913 L.C. Smith & Pre 1929 LeFever double guns that keep increasing in value every year.  Never viewed my O Gauge Trains as collectables.

PCRR/Dave

LeFever 1919-1926 one of a kind Double Gun.  Still works like the day it was made.

Jagrick posted:

Look at past collectible--the worse in recent memory was Beanie babies. I knew grown men collecting those with retirement plans based on resale, Baseball cards/sports cards in general, etc. Anything made, marketed and sold as a collectible 99 times out of 100 is not. True are because they were never meant to be

Back in the day it was called Fools Gold.   Lionel trains are really no different then Beanie Babies. They're both still made today and improved on along the way.   So like beanie babies, why in the world would anyone think trains in continuous repetitive production are a good investment grade collectable directly out of the factory? 

JC642 posted:

Back in the day it was called Fools Gold.   Lionel trains are really no different then Beanie Babies. They're both still made today and improved on along the way.   So like beanie babies, why in the world would anyone think trains in continuous repetitive production are a good investment grade collectable directly out of the factory? 

joe

Probably because they are hoping to hit the exceptions.

You can't casually buy the Lionel GE Evolution engine, the Hot Air Balloon accessory, the Milwaukee S-3 steamer, or the Operating Coal Tipple for less than they were sold for originally.

Probably not coincidentally, but these have also not yet been "continuously repeated", nor improved upon yet.  I'm sure if they are re-released (and in with decent QC), the demand for the original items will go down and probably follow a more regular used price point.

Those are just a few of the rare exceptions, but those exceptions stick in people's minds.  For every one of those, there are 50 regular items no one cares about after it's released.

-Dave

It's only collectible to me if I enjoy the piece now not what it may or may not be worth down the road. I'm not a box guy either.I buy and run trains for the trains not the cardboard they come in.  Just visit some of the member halls in York and you'll see the same guy's and the same "collectibles" year after year meet after meet at the same ridiculous prices!  Their trains spend more time riding back and forth in the trunk of a car then they ever will on a track. 

#PineCreekRailroad <salute> That is a mighty fine shooting iron there, mister...

I appreciate the thoughts, agreed

Dave45681 posted:

JC642 posted:

Back in the day it was called Fools Gold.   Lionel trains are really no different then Beanie Babies. They're both still made today and improved on along the way.   So like beanie babies, why in the world would anyone think trains in continuous repetitive production are a good investment grade collectable directly out of the factory? 

joe

Probably because they are hoping to hit the exceptions.

You can't casually buy the Lionel GE Evolution engine, the Hot Air Balloon accessory, the Milwaukee S-3 steamer, or the Operating Coal Tipple for less than they were sold for originally.

Probably not coincidentally, but these have also not yet been "continuously repeated", nor improved upon yet.  I'm sure if they are re-released (and in with decent QC), the demand for the original items will go down and probably follow a more regular used price point.

Those are just a few of the rare exceptions, but those exceptions stick in people's minds.  For every one of those, there are 50 regular items no one cares about after it's released.

-Dave

The three items you mentioned are certainly not "rare" or investment grade collectable.            Tons were made.      Food for thought... They are popular items, well received..  Because of that current prices of each are driven higher ONLY  by not much more then current availability.  Although IMO, because its possible all 10 die-cast ES44's may not be reissued again in die-cast, they may continue to hold appreciable value over time..   

Joe 

C W Burfle posted:

I have long thought that Lionel leverages the instant collectable mentality, and continues to do so today.

...and with great success, judging by the posts on this site...  

Mark in Oregon

Heirloom's may be Collectible, Certain Older Automobiles, Knives Possibly Baseball/Football cards from Yesteryear, Definitely Pistols, Rifles, even 100 Year old Lionel - Ives - Dorfan  - American Flyer - Marx - Colber Trains, etc., which are New, never ran, just Displayed Under Glass......WOW, Simply put, something Really Wanted, few Available...Supply versus Demand.....Our trains are made to Enjoy, not worry about the Value Years Later...As we can see today, with the many estate sales, Auctions, and collections for sale, it boils down to the Quality, of the items being Sold....There are fewer folks getting into the Hobby, this makes a Huge difference in resale of Our Prized Possessions. Good Question..

In my thinking, it is the consumer that determines the collectibility of any item. Certainly not price guides. Limited initial production of an item is no guarantee either, which would include the BTO method. Auction sites aren't always an accurate indicator either as sometimes people pay top dollar for their own very individual personal reasons. You can get a general idea by auction sites, but only by looking at the average price paid and not the one single exceptional price paid.

In addition to the items Dave mentioned above, consider the K-Line 21-inch passenger cars, which appear to command good prices, but that's because they are desired by consumers. I don't know how many were originally made by K-Line: I suspect if the demand had been greater when they came out, more would have been made. The desirability of these cars has happened over a period of time, as some operators have made the switch from traditional to scale.

Or the K-Line ISO bulk containers, which certainly were not hard to find - even at a discount price - when released. I remember seeing them at blow out prices. I wouldn't call these collectible items, yet the demand for them has grown over time, thus higher prices being paid for them.

And as the market changes, so do the collectible items. The interest in the different command technology locomotives and scale proportioned products has certainly contributed to some previously collectible traditional products no longer being as desirable. As has the shrinking of the overall market size.

We all could probably name many more items made in limited quantities that are certainly not collectible at the current time. My rule of thumb (as others have also said) is to buy what you like because YOU like it and then go ahead and enjoy it.

If you then at some point decide to sell it, you at least got a percent of your money back. Or use the item for parts... in many cases the individual parts (door guides, rivets, [brake wheels, truck sets, etc.) will cost you far more to purchase.

The best example of a collectable is an item that is well made and produced in very low numbers for a very short time. Anything mass produced saturates the market and becomes more or less worthless as far as being collectable.

Demand + Time + Rarity =Collectable
Time has to be a factor, things sold as a collectable won't due to low demand and rarity. How any people still have them mint-in-box? Does anyone care? Rarity has to be defined by the amount of the product still around at a later date. Look at the cardboard box craze, people still want the original box, most have been thrown out over the years and suddenly the boxes become collectable. Personally I won't give you $5.00 for any box. We may found out in 30 years (I may not be around then, but someone will be) that the most collectable trains of our era maybe wooden Thomas trains in mint condition in their original boxes.

Scott Smith

Anything that I want and don't have is collectable by me.  I have some things that no one else seems to want or buys but that I enjoy.  For example, I have have an extensive collection of K-Line circus cars.  I enjoy running them.  I personally don't know another person who buys and runs circus cars.  I bought a K-Line clown speeder at a train show yesterday.

NH Joe

One or more weirdos with an overwhelming need to have said thing makes it collectable.

There's a fair amount of mud being slung here, both implicitly and explicitly ("weirdos"--this from someone who whose sig line is "I love my trains!!!" [note the three exclamation points] and who styles himself the President and Chief Operations officer of a model railroad), and that slinging is quite ironic considering where we are discussing the issue.

I collect Late-Styled, Row crop John Deere tractors.  Perhaps my admiration for their engineering excellence, robust character, and continuing utility makes me a weirdo, but there are a LOT of us weirdos in that collecting community.  Of course, there ARE those weirdo Farmall guys . . . . 

Scott Smith wisely notes the necessity of time.  We don't know what, if anything, will be collected from today's train offerings because not enough time has passed, but the definition of what is collectible is those things folks collect.  "Overwhelming need" is a stereotype (like most stereotypes, true in some cases), but "weirdos" is rather too harsh, I think.

Back in the 80's I decided and got caught up in that I had to collect all of the 5700 series wood side reefers and anything else that was in the 5700 series including bunk and tools cars.
For me it was more of the hunt as lot of them were sold in sets and the set had to be broken open by a dealer.
Mission a accomplished and what did it get me? A shelf full of 5700 series cars and duplicate/triplicates of the 5720 and 5712 wood side reefers.
Would I do it again? The answer is yes because it was fun and I always came home with something I caught.
Price increase on these? I do not think that I could break even if I sold them.
Just glad they stopped the 5700 series.
How many of you collect the Christmas box cars. I did to mine started in the early 80's and stopped in 2012 Christmas car. Reason for that I stopped was that  Lionel did not release this car until the late spring/summer of 2013 year and what you got for the price was not worth it.
So buy what you like and need or for trading power. Just enjoy.

Johnnie Poppers and Farmless?  My ranch supply store is a Case dealer with Case steam and gas tractors around it.

Jagrick posted:

collectible=whenever 2 or more people desire something.

 

 

No.  It only takes 1 person - just fill in the blank - I collect ____________

Back in the 80's I decided and got caught up in that I had to collect all of the 5700 series wood side reefers and anything else that was in the 5700 series including bunk and tools cars.
For me it was more of the hunt as lot of them were sold in sets and the set had to be broken open by a dealer.
Mission a accomplished and what did it get me? A shelf full of 5700 series cars and duplicate/triplicates of the 5720 and 5712 wood side reefers.
Would I do it again? The answer is yes because it was fun and I always came home with something I caught.
Price increase on these? I do not think that I could break even if I sold them.

I learned my lesson collecting Lionel series with the billboard reefers (like 9850) of the 1970's, purchasing them as they were released. At first collecting them seemed to be very doable, three cars a year, at about six dollars a car. Then they started putting the cars in sets, supposedly not available for separate sale. That ended my collecting billboard reefers. I sold off a bunch of them. I still have a few.

I have the first eight 5700 series wood side reefers. They have die cast metal sprung trucks and are weathered. Very nice cars. I got them on closeout from Trainland in the early 1980's. 

# MWB    <salute>

i also am collecting grandchildren. two so far. i take them out and play every chance i get.

p.s. (i did a morning coffee spit take the first time I read your tagline. "Engineer sees three idiots standing on the track", I smile everytime.)

Too many people associate "collectibles/collectable" with value.

Sometimes people collect to attain a complete series of something as C.W. and I, too, had done for a while with the reefers.

Others just collect similar items with no intention or even the possibility of attaining "completeness", such as T-shirts or coffee mugs from places they visit.

I see collecting as the "joy of the hunt". Searching for inexpensive items in a category or series just makes train shows or flea markets more fun for me.

Currently, I have been seeking out postwar Lionel flatcars without loads. I could never afford some of them with their loads, but even the hard-to-find ones are seldom expensive by themselves when you do come across them. If I ever finish with the major variations, the "collection" still won't be worth more than a few dollars a car. But, the search has been fun, whether I ever come close to completion or not. 

Part of the "collection":

Jim