Marx 999 Stall Speeds

@Mossback Mike -  Given the elaborate layout you pictured I am sure that you know this, but just to make sure.  Some 999 and 666 locomotives came from the factory with a "double reduction" drive.  There is no currently published record of which ones, and when or where the trade off took place.  The double reduction ones are designed to operate more smoothly at low speeds.  You can easily find out if any of your loco's are double reduction as the gearing is clearly visible on the side of the motor housing.  Normal drive, just one gear from the armature drive to the drive wheels and double reduction has an intermediate gear between the armature drive and the drive wheels.

I am sorry if this is "old hat" to you as I said in my first sentence, but I wanted to make sure you had this information

Sincerely

Don

@Don McErlean posted:

@Mossback Mike -  Given the elaborate layout you pictured I am sure that you know this, but just to make sure.  Some 999 and 666 locomotives came from the factory with a "double reduction" drive.  There is no currently published record of which ones, and when or where the trade off took place.  The double reduction ones are designed to operate more smoothly at low speeds.  You can easily find out if any of your loco's are double reduction as the gearing is clearly visible on the side of the motor housing.  Normal drive, just one gear from the armature drive to the drive wheels and double reduction has an intermediate gear between the armature drive and the drive wheels.

I am sorry if this is "old hat" to you as I said in my first sentence, but I wanted to make sure you had this information

Sincerely

Don

Don

All of my 999s have a single reduction spur gear drive. Although you brought up a good point, I should probably try running some other types of locomotives on the Crazy Train to see which ones perform the best. I have some double-reduction Lionel 2-4-2s, and I also have 666 which has a double-reduction drive.

Mike

Hi Mike!  I ran postwar and MPC for years (and made a good-faith attempt to run them at realistic speeds, imagine that!!)  I also observed that they tended to speed up as the motors got warm.  I never figured out why, nor was I able to tame that tendency.  Some people attributed it to friction or lubrication, but I don't think that explains everything.  I believe the internal resistance of the motor or its magnetic flux changes with temperature, and the motors seem to run faster with less torque.  For your consideration, I recently posted this little-known fact on another thread:

"The speed of the toy motor can be reduced by bridging a 4-ohm resistor across the brushes of the motor but not across the field.  This resistor acts as a shunt to by-pass some of the current around the armature thus causing the armature to get less current and the field more current.  In this way a definite speed reduction can be obtained.  However, this scheme will not work with all motors equally well and some experimentation may be necessary to determine the exact value of the resistor.  It should not be less than 4 ohms and should not be more than 10."   --W. K. Walthers, Handbook for Model Railroaders, Kalmbach Publishing Co., 1946.

If you took your fastest runner and added a resistor as described above, I wonder if it would tame the speed variation?  You would have to put more voltage into the track, for sure.  Some kind of variable resistor would be amazing, because then you could adjust it as the loco warmed up.

You could also put a full-wave bridge rectifier between the transformer and track, and try running your trains on DC.  They will probably run quieter and more consistently.  This is a fine way to run "traditional" trains, as long as you don't have horns or whistles built into the locomotive because in that case they will sound continuously!

I like the way double-reduction Marx motors run.  I think the extra gearing translates to a smaller percent change in RPM for a given a change in voltage or resistance.  That means more consistent running.  I would bet that a double-reduction Marx will outperform the Lionel double-reduction 2-4-2, especially if the Marx is a non-smoker (it won't have to contend with the momentary drag of the smoke puffer.)  It'll be fun to find out!

Also... With series-wound motors as used by Lionel and Marx, speed is inherently sensitive to load.  Your layout looks great and I'm sure you've made every effort to keep things level.  But any kind of sag or downhill will cause the train to speed up.

Last thing AND THIS IS IMPORTANT... I know the ZW is cool with four throttles and all.  But... it's NOT the best choice for precise control.  If one loco starts working harder for any reason, it draws more current which subtlely reduces the voltage to the other 3 mainlines.  If you really want consistent control, power each loop with its own small transformer.  Trust me on this!

Look forward to more of your videos, and further posts as you experiment and test the other locos!

@Ted S posted:

Last thing AND THIS IS IMPORTANT... I know the ZW is cool with four throttles and all.  But... it's NOT the best choice for precise control.  If one loco starts working harder for any reason, it draws more current which subtlely reduces the voltage to the other 3 mainlines.  If you really want consistent control, power each loop with its own small transformer.  Trust me on this!

Amen to that. The ZW has two throttle levers on the left and two on the right. Any throttle adjustment will affect the voltage applied to the other throttle on that side. It is a constant balancing act to keep everything controlled - and you cant walk away from it. You really have to keep an eye on everything and be prepared to slow down or speed up to prevent stalling or run-aways. I have a rocker switch on the plug strip - and that is my panic button when things are really out of control.

I need to put some sort of guardrail on the outer perimeter of each deck.

@Mossback Mike posted:

Amen to that. The ZW has two throttle levers on the left and two on the right. Any throttle adjustment will affect the voltage applied to the other throttle on that side. It is a constant balancing act to keep everything controlled - and you cant walk away from it. You really have to keep an eye on everything and be prepared to slow down or speed up to prevent stalling or run-aways. I have a rocker switch on the plug strip - and that is my panic button when things are really out of control.

I need to put some sort of guardrail on the outer perimeter of each deck.

Ditto. I have a few speed sensitive setups on my layout, and am running four loops using all throttles on my ZW. Any variation in load on any loop, including the automated trolley stops at the stations, will have a small but immediate effect on all the other loops, so when I'm running on all loops, I find I can't stray too far from the throttles. FWIW, I installed post-and-wire catch fences at all four outer corners of the layout some time ago, after one of my Marx Santa Fe 1095 diesel's tried to commit suicide by throwing itself off the edge and onto the concrete floor of my basement at speed!

Make sure the lower screw on the brush plate is tight, this is the ground. A loose screw can cause some erratic performance.

Steve

Marx locomotives are generally guaranteed to run.

Run WELL, is another kettle of fish entirely. 

I recommend alternating directions on each level.  That way, discrepancies in speed won't be as noticeable. 

Mitch

@M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

Marx locomotives are generally guaranteed to run.

Run WELL, is another kettle of fish entirely. 

I recommend alternating directions on each level.  That way, discrepancies in speed won't be as noticeable.

Mitch

Once I get some guardrails installed - I will do that. That would add to the excitement.

@Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

Make sure the lower screw on the brush plate is tight, this is the ground. A loose screw can cause some erratic performance.

Steve

Good advice.

Mike

Thanks for pointing out that changing the voltage on one throttle of a Lionel ZW will effect the throttle voltages to the other trains.

The major reason I started with two Lionel LW transformers on each end of the control panel was to allow two operators to not get in each other way.  I will also say LWs were much cheaper than ZWs and have a higher output per channel that on ZW.

The application of NO OX track treatment givers better train operation at low speeds on my and others layouts, especially with conventional control.  Another NO OX advantage is no more track cleaning forever.  See OGR forum link for details on NO OX.

https://ogrforum.com/...7#159660139094824137

Charlie

You did not state your goal as best I can tell.  Is it to have them moving in unison?  If so, lots of luck.

My ten cents says have each layer going the opposite direction from the one above and below it.  However you may want to have some plastic bags for the people that are going to be parting with their dinner as they watch.

@Bill DeBrooke posted:

You did not state your goal as best I can tell.  Is it to have them moving in unison?  If so, lots of luck.

My ten cents says have each layer going the opposite direction from the one above and below it.  However you may want to have some plastic bags for the people that are going to be parting with their dinner as they watch.

Bill - my goals are to get the locomotives running at stable speeds, and prevent the locomotives from falling down.  For nausea relief, I would advise viewers to either avert their eyes or use Dramamine!

I'm replying to this old thread because it was very helpful in answering some questions/observations I had while running 3 old Marx/Lionel/Unique Art trains and a trolley using the four throttles of a postwar ZW. It saved me having to ask questions that were already asked. I entered one of the issues in Google and found that and other questions I've had answered above.

Thank you to @Mossback Mike, @Ted S, @Steve Tyler, @Steve "Papa" Eastman, @Don McErlean and anyone else I missed.

John

@John's Trains posted:

I'm replying to this old thread because it was very helpful in answering some questions/observations I had while running 3 old Marx/Lionel/Unique Art trains and a trolley using the four throttles of a postwar ZW. It saved me having to ask questions that were already asked. I entered one of the issues in Google and found that and other questions I've had answered above.

Thank you to @Mossback Mike, @Ted S, @Steve Tyler, @Steve "Papa" Eastman, @Don McErlean and anyone else I missed.

John

John

Despite its quirks, the ZW, at 275 watts, is still a highly desirable transformer. It is the only transformer I have that will drive my ultra-heavyweight Lionel 1947-vintage Pennsylvania 2332 GG-1 locomotive. The 100 watt transformers just doesn't have enough power to operate this GG1 locomotive when it is pulling a string of heavyweight Madison cars.

Mike

@Mossback Mike posted:

John

Despite its quirks, the ZW, at 275 watts, is still a highly desirable transformer. It is the only transformer I have that will drive my ultra-heavyweight Lionel 1947-vintage Pennsylvania 2332 GG-1 locomotive. The 100 watt transformers just doesn't have enough power to operate this GG1 locomotive when it is pulling a string of heavyweight Madison cars.

Mike

Yes, Mike. I think I'm gonna keep my old ZW - especially since I just had it restored. It is nice, and it does make for interesting running, even though they're all flat tracks. You're not a spectator, and the quick moves to cut all power keep the blood circulating. Imagine the excitement if there were grades involved, with the inner throttles on upgrades and the outers on downgrades! 😊

John

I've had similar experience.  Locomotives with the same mechanism will run differently.  For a given voltage, some locomotives will run faster or draw more current.

That said, the biggest problem I've had with Marx locomotives is that there's no reverse unit lock out.  A locomotive runs down the track, hits a dirty spot, and reverses.  I've added reverse unit lock out switches to some Marx E7s and converted them to Lionel rear couplers and I've gotten a locomotive that's as good a runner as a single motor Lionel F unit or Geep.

The ZW is the best transformer for MANY applications.  However, a bunch of CW80 transformers is better for a multi-train layout with smallish engines.  A CW80 will handle any Marx engine for hours and give you independent speed control.

@cbq9911a posted:

That said, the biggest problem I've had with Marx locomotives is that there's no reverse unit lock out.  A locomotive runs down the track, hits a dirty spot, and reverses.

One CAN add a lockout to the steam engines; just install a switch in the cab and run wires to the feed from the track to the reverse solenoid...   

Mitch

FWIW-When I first started running Marx locos (Commodore Vanderbilts and Canadian Pacifics) on my small layout, they all had single reduction motors and exhibited the same increase in speed after warming up as describe in the original post. I bought some Marx 400s with double reduction motors and placed those motors in the Commodore Vanderbilts and Canadian Pacifics and ever since, I have been able to run them at much slower and stable speeds.