2 Rail MTH, not that impressive

Premium 2-rail models are a good bit more expensive than those converted from 3-rail.  I have one of the very first MTH 2-rail SD-9s, and an identical PSC model.  I am pleased with both, but they are vastly different in fidelity, pulling power, and price.

 

If you want truly accurate O Scale, consider Key, PSC, and for the very best, Henry Bultmann's imports.  Bring lots of cash.

 

Opinion.

Have you been hanging around the real locomotives for years?

 

The Gap you see is filled by beams on the real DASH 9s that would not be possible to put on an O Scale model, unless somebody builds true to scale traction motors.

 

Andrew

The best thing I like about the scale wheels models, are the scale wheels. I also like some of the changes PS 3 has provided, i.e. the lighting and it's functions...

 

Having tilted pilot ends catches my eyes, because the steps are not parallel to the chassis or the rails, as they should be. There's even a bit of a gap, at the rear of the Dash 9, where the plastic body is supposed to meet with the rear deck.

 

I also don't like it when grab irons are tight up against the shell. The assembler probably doesn't know how they are supposed to appear, to look realistic.

 

I like the horn on the 9. Nice tones.

 

Many of my hi-rail models actually look better; they don't sit up as high, over the trucks. The Scale wheels pieces have a 4x4 suspension thing, going on.

 

I have 4 nice Atlas O 3-rail models, and they have a heft to them. They feel substantial. I haven't held any Atlas O 2-rail models, but I assume they have a die-cast frame, as well. That feel feels like quality, to me.

 

The MTH Scale wheels models don't have that same type of physical presence. They feel light, sort-of cheap. MTH's hi-rail rigs have more of a physical presence, which I like better.

 

Two little screws holding on those flimsy/flexing pilots. Not my idea of a solid locomotive model.

 

I'm sure there are some scale wheels units that show better than others. I thought these models(Dash 9, EE44DC and the SD70ACe) would be some of  MTH's better work.

 

BTW, the first scale wheels unit I bought was MTH's UP SD70ACe. I was almost shocked, when I saw the pilots and how they were attached. The unit had a defective speaker, which would be an easy fix, but after I returned it to my dealer(to replace the speaker) I told them I had changed my mind. I didn't want it back. It wasn't what I had expected...

 

Hi-rail has it's failings, as do the scale wheels models. My feelings re: fit, finish, quality... seem to wax and wane. Sometimes, I find it easier to overlook certain shortcomings and other times, they just bug me.

 

 

BTW, paying a couple of grand for a model doesn't work for me. That just seems a wee bit ridiculous. Nothing you could do, model-wise, would make an O gauge/scale model worth $2,000.00, or more. Nothing!

 

I could have easily bought numerous high priced models, with the money I've spent on my trains. There's just something frivolous about going past a certain price point, for one model.

 

Will I buy any more MTH scale wheels models? Maybe? Who knows? If I do, I won't have the same expectations, though.

 

I guess it comes down to good enough or abstain?

 

 

Rick

 

 

 

 

 

 

Andrew,

 

I usually see Canadian and American modern locomotives, every day.

 

 

Rick

Take photos of the DASH 9, ES44DC, & SD70M-2 just an hour after sunrise and just an hour before sunset to see how the real truck gap looks in light that aims directly at the sides. It looks different depending on the time of day.

 

Andrew

Andrew, for those of us who will not have that opportunity, what would we see?

 

 

Andrew,

 

The guy I buy my trains from is a long time 2 rail guy. He is located thousands of miles away from me. He sees my purchases, prior to me getting them. He also checks them out to make sure they are okay, prior to sending them my way.

 

I sometimes ask him what he thinks of a new purchase of mine. He didn't like the height/gap on the 9.

 

I've been up close to many modern North American freight locomotives; viewing and photographing them from many different angles. The ones I've seen don't look like rail 4x4's, with tilted pilots and steps.

 

Rick

I know there have been guys on this forum that have filled those gaps and did a few other cosmetic things and it has made a big difference in their apperance. For the amount you are paying for them your not getting the detail of a brass model. If you want that then pay the money for the brass or get the stuff and do it your self like some of the other guys the forum.

 

As for the speaker being bad, it happens. If it's under warranty get it fixed.

 

http://www.toytrainsontracks.com/  He has done a few MTH engines like what you are describing.

 

Look this up in the search and it will show you what guys have done. Lowering MTH Diesels

 

Ralph

Hi Ralph,

 

Thanks for the info. I am aware that some modelers have/do alter new purchases, to improve certain perceived shortcomings. I'm not one of them... at least not, yet.

 

I'm thinking that paying approx. five and a half, should get you level pilots, decent scale proportions/features and the proper locomotive stance.

 

BTW, the UP SD70ACe is long gone. It was my first look at a scale wheels model. Even though I sent it back, and after some time had passed, I decided to try out another scale wheels model. This time I chose the CN ES44DC(one in 3-rail and the other scale wheels). The scale wheels unit looks too high, but not as bad as the Dash 9.

 

The front windshield ruins that particular model, for me. I hate the noticeable border on the clear plastic(the simulated glass). It(the border) captures the excessive lighting(spillover) coming from inside the cab. That reflected captured light sinks any chance for that particular model, to resemble the prototype. MTH has this problem with a number of their hi-rail models windshields, too, including their hi-rail CN ES44DC.

 

Again, I never had the feeling of a solid model re: the CN scale wheels unit. Those pilots, just don't do it for me. I loved having 6 steel wheels making contact with the rails, though. That's very nice, to me. I really like the look of those scales wheels, too.  Again, very very nice!

 

If MTH could somehow come up with a more substantial(solid) and level pilot, and drop their chassis/body, to a more realistic looking height; that would work for me.

 

Lose the weird looking glass windshields, too. Their PS 3 package is a lighting improvement, as long as they eliminate the overspill from models that have the above windshield number boards. MTH should shoot for eliminating any areas of overspilling

light.

 

The things I am looking for are not outrageous demands. Just better quality, and attention to noticeable details/features. It shouldn't cost MTH more to get these things done, right.

 

 

Rick

 

 

 

Hi Rick, If you think the new windshields are bad, do you remember when they used to be one solid piece of clear plastic with the wipers molded into them?

Hi Bill,

 

Only some of the newer models have that problem. Some are fine, i.e. my Premier CSX ES44DC has nice windshields. I don't know why they gave the CN DC model that distracting treatment? The CN unit has teardrop windshields and the CSX has the standard rectangular windshields. My Premier CN SD40-3's (tunnel motor) windows have that distracting border, and it's got conventional cab style windows.

 

MTH might have tried to give it's new models a flush appearance(trying to make the windshield surface more-or-less flush with the rest of the cab surface). If that was their intent, the experiment did not work.

 

BTW, my first MTH purchase, a 2005 Railking UP Dash 8, has the windshield with the molded in wipers.

 

 

Rick

 Maybe you should look at these:

http://www.overlandmodels.com/showroom.php?scale=2

get your wallet ready. Joe

posted by rick b

The guy I buy my trains from is a long time 2 rail guy. He is located thousands of miles away from me. He sees my purchases, prior to me getting them. He also checks them out to make sure they are okay, prior to sending them my way.

rick who is your 2-rail guy? sounds like a very good resource.

jerrman

Joe,

 

Those prices fall into my ridiculous/frivolous category. Might as well just lease the real thing... with some track rights, included.

 

Jerrman,

 

The shop I deal with and especially, the guy that I usually deal with... They are good guys, knowledgeable, helpful and a valuable resource for anything to do with model railroading.

 

Sorry, but for privacy reasons... they will remain anonymous.

 

 

Rick

 here's a pic of a recent one. It's good enough for me. I guess the frame gap is bigger if you look at eye level? I'm happy with the overall value of these engines from them. I have seen a couple of rougher examples. (I fixed the pilots on the AC6000 that were tilted.)

I have 2- railed a couple of these kinds of models.  It is naot difficult to attach the pilot with two screws.  I try to get the screws into the sheet steel floor, rather than in the soft plastic.  The only visuql problem I see is that the step at the interface is either thicker or of the wrong rise.   Not terribly noticeable.  I do spend time filling that gigantic coupler hole.

 

If you want decent 2- rail wheels, insist on carbon steel.  Most converted stuff coming from factories uses plated brass, and that is a lousy wheel.  3- railers can use sintered iron, but the conductivity is not good enough for two rail.

 

I believe you can no longer expect everything to be perfect at the $500 point.  You are buying a compromise.  You do not have to buy it, but if nobody buys these things MTH will quit making them.  They have been there before.

 

 

That is K-Line, but you get the idea.  Pilots on straight with a couple of 2-56 machine screws.

As a recent convert to scale-wheeled MTH, I can tell you that the price point on MTH locomotives is very attractive compared to the alternatives (MTH UP1995: $410; OMI UP1995: $2,800.)

 

I've seen first-hand where the compromises were made as the superstructure and truck blocks are, after all, designed around the 3-rail majority market. If I couldn't accept compromise (and had the requisite skills and spare time) I'd be scratch-building to Proto:48.

 

I decided to go with the scale-wheeled units as I prefer the fixed pilots and if you believe some of my colleagues at the club, I've been exhibiting 2-rail tendencies (that's a joke for Phil Gatto.) As others have said, if we buy them, MTH will keep making them. Hopefully, the market demand will be sufficient to have them package the units 3-rail "as-delivered" with the spare parts included for setting the units up with fixed pilots. 

Lads,

 

I've always, as long as I can remember had an eye for detail. I also know how to live with good enough...

 

Getting a level pilot shouldn't be a big challenge, nor should an acceptable body height. Joe's picture shows some of the space I'm talking about(look just behind the front set of steps). Depending on the height of your layout... the higher your layout, the more noticeable the open space is...

 

I've got over 50 Premier/Atlas O engines... I know their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Why can't their 2-rail models sit nice and low? Check out their Premier 3-rail standard cab SD45; it's a low-rider.

 

The 2-rail pilot connections are lame. Going into the steel deck, like Bob mentioned, should make a stronger connection.

 

My Dash 9 actually looks as if the metal chassis has a slight arch to it... with tilted outward/downward, pilots/steps.  Certain models have the bifocal looking window glass. I hate the look those windshields produce, especially with the lights on.

 

You shouldn't have to spend another grand or more to get better results. My Atlas O models have nice substantial heavy die-cast chassis's; weight that improves the units traction effort. Those things never cost me more than $600.00 tops.

 

I don't buy it, guys. We're talking basics here, not extravagant extras.

 

The pilot connection on my 9 is just sloppy/poor craftsmanship; and it doesn't take much to flex those pilots by hand. For me, a good model not only looks good... it feels good... to the touch.

 

Rick

An addendum to my last post:

 

The current stamped steel frames seem to be adequate, for 3-rail equipment. Probably, because the die-cast hi-rail trucks have strong pilot connections(they are part of the molded die-cast truck).

 

I can see where an Atlas O die-cast platform, would be a better/sturdier, more rigid, connection for the pilots.

 

BTW, I'd probably pay $100.00 more, for these things to be done right.

 

 

Rick

Use a camera with a telphoto lens and a flash to take a series of images of the details between the truck and the frame on the real Diesel-Electric Locomotives to see what is missing on the scale models.

 

You have to tell them to make new injection molds or modify the injection molds if they want to say that the fixed pilots are truly fixed.

 

Andrew

Andrew,

 

I was thinking about an earlier comment you made, in this thread... earlier, today; and I went into my digital photo collection. I found numerous close-up, head-end/cab, modern diesel-electric shots(both GE and EMD); and a series of BNSF Dash 9 shots. Those pictures where taken on a sunny day and there was absolutely no daylight/gaps/open spaces... to be seen. These where close-up shots, taken only a few feet away from the locomotive. Some of the pictures where photographed, from a significantly low camera position; and nothing resembling a 4x4 suspension was captured/seen. Everything looked as it should.

 

 

Rick

The problem as I see it is that 80% of a production run of any diesel by MTH is for the 3 rail market.  The only way to get a scale diesel with everything we want it either has to be brass or we build them ourselves.     

 

The 2 rail scale diesels from MTH get you about 80% there and I would not expect them to get you there all the way. So it is up to the modelers to go the rest of the way if you buy MTH.  I for one is not willing to pay OMI or anybody else $2000 plus for a diesel locomotive, number 1 I can't afford it so I will continue to buy the MTH models and then upgrade them to my liking and get them close as possible to the prototype. Not a perfect solution but it works for me.  

Good point Andrew, your second comment, in your last post. One of the strongest components of modern diesel-electric locomotives is where the pilot meets the locomotive platform. This component is usually one of the first sections of the new locomotive, to be completed.

 

It has to be able to withstand tremendous amounts of stress/force exerted on it, day after day... Rock solid, is a suitable description.

 

MTH's O scale 2-rail models do not share their prototypes "Rock solid", attributes.

 

 

Rick

 

 

David,

 

 

I'll say it again, solid platforms are currently in use, for around the same price. How much does it cost to make a decent windshield and to mount the frame... where it's visually acceptable?

 

Have you ever taken one of these models apart? I have and there's not a lot... to them. Five or six bills, should do the trick.

 

 

Rick

IMO, Rick, for the small price difference why not just go with the Atlas product?  It seems like MTH can not make you happy.

 

There will always be products that any of us just can not get our heads around.  Not worth the keystrokes IMO, when remedy is available in a different color box.

 

I have had equally good service and product quality form both Atlas and MTH.  I just buy what I like and pass on the rest from either of them.  Less angst. more peace. 

To be clear, the area where the pilot meets the "locomotive platform", is not as strong as you think, on diesel electric locomotives. The end sheets (proper term), are only about one inch thick steel, and have absolutely NOTHING to do with the forces transmitted to the coupler, which pulls the trailing train load. The coupler & draft gear assembly is inserted into a MASSIVE pocket that is welded into & onto the bottom plate of the under frame assembly (the bottom plate being over 3" thick steel). 

 

Thus, the end sheet of diesel units are only to support the end steps, uncoupling levers, MU air hose connections, hand railings, and a snow plow, if ordered by a customer. After grade crossing accidents, many times the units end sheet require sectional replacement, and the shop forces simply torch off the bent portions of the sheet, and weld in a new section. No big deal!

 

Thus your statement, "It has to be able to withstand tremendous amounts of stress/force exerted on it, day after day... Rock solid, is a suitable description", is NOT true. The end sheet has absolutely NO FORCE exerted on it, "day after day", unless they hit lots of vehicles at grade crossings. ALL pulling/pushing forces are exerted through the under frame bottom plate & center sills weldment assembly to the coupler pocket to the draft gear assembly to the coupler.

What Hot Water Stated above....

 

 

The load bearing(re: pushing and pulling massive tonnage) structures(components) of real locomotives are "rock solid". The load bearing structures(components) of MTH 2-rail models, aren't.

 

 

Tom,

 

For some reason, I prefer operating my MTH equipment. I like my Atlas O locomotives, but seldom run them...

 

 

Forum,

 

The title of this tread "2Rail MTH, not that impressive" is an accurate, candid, opinion.

I'm not that impressed by MTH's current 2-rail work. Some of their Premier 3-rail locomotives receive higher grades, from me.

 

 

Rick

 

 

 

 

Sure they are, if you attach the Kadee coupler properly. Any MTH 6-axle model will pull well over 70 freight cars.

HW,

 

I have yet to hear that anyone ripped the pilot off their MTH 2-rail locomotive. That's not what I'm saying, here.

 

It's in my nature to seek out quality. I can and do, at times, get by with "good enough"; but that state is not where my real passion lies.

 

 

Rick

Well, you best be purchasing the diesel models from Key or Overland then. 

Nah. If something looks a wee bit interesting... you never know; but I won't be spending large, on model trains. They're not that important, to me.

 

Rick

You are sending us contradictory signals.  You are dissatisfied with inexpensive models and are seeking quality, but will not be paying for better quality because you do not take this that seriously?

No mixed signals, Bob... it's straight forward. I think 5.5 - 6 should get me the basics that I'm looking for. I'm willing to go a little higher, but not large...

 

 

Rick

And I guarantee you the 3-rail folks think you get every pennies worth of that.  It's a block with a pretty paint job that looks great 10 feet away and runs forever and has lots of bells and whistles.  You are getting those 3-rail models with a different wheel set and a basic fixed pilot, no more, no less.  If your not OK with that that's your problem not MTHs.  I have that problem and that is why MTH is off my list until their O stuff is at least as good at their HO stuff.  And MTH is perfectly OK with that because that makes me not part of the market they cater to.

 

Richard

I guess I understand.  I think four bucks ought to get me a gallon of Avgas, but I simply cannot convince big oil that my opinion counts.

 

Nobody makes high end O Scale for $600 any more.  I have found MTH to be adequate - especially their PAs and Hudsons, both of which need lots of work to fit in around here.

I'm well past those days...  pining for a manufacturer to build my dream models.

 

I'm offering a seasoned opinion. My take on MTH's 2-rail diesel-electric offerings...

 

BTW, Joe seems to have the knack; maybe, we should get him to open up shop(Just kidding, Joe, about opening...)?

 

 

Rick