@Brad Kowal posted:In one direction you have the F45 which was ordered by more road than just Santa Fe and Milwaukee Road.
Well, kinda sorta, but not quite. Milwaukee Road didn't have any F45's. Only the Santa Fe, Great Northern and Burlington Northern (12 of them were ordered by the GN before the merger) got them new from EMD.
Although, some F45's went on to second and third lives to various railroads.
Rusty
@Brad Kowal posted:Hey Guys: How about an Amtrak F40PH? I know this is a little off topic, but the nose looks similar.... Overland Models did not produce a lot of these. I know one guy who has 4, two more guys that each have three, which I believe accounts for most of them. With the Amfleets coming out and the Horizon Cars that have been out for some time, I think there might be some demand here. I can think of 2 different Chicago-Metra paint schemes, 3 different Amtrak paint schemes, plus the Amtrak conversion to a cab control car........
What is wrong with K-Line, Lionel and MTH F40PH?
The FP45 has only been made by MTH (1st generation Premier, it's dated) and you can't count Williams horrible rendition.
@Boilermaker1 posted:...
Yes, I know they're not identical, but we're in the ballpark here. Trucks would exist in Scott's parts bin from the SD40-2 project, and if he does Tunnel Motors he also has a frame with the right wheelbase. Its not too much of a stretch to make the locomotives for the otherwise somewhat orphaned El Cap sets.
...
Yes, but, the expensive part, the body shell, is mostly different. Only the cab area is the same. The sides, the roof and the ends are different. Don't get me wrong, I want SDP40Fs not FP45s but... Even the first run of SDP40Fs is different from the second run.
@Boilermaker1 posted:Its not too much of a stretch to make the locomotives for the otherwise somewhat orphaned El Cap sets.
im lost. please explain how the el cap sets were somewhat orphaned and how that has anything to do with the sdp40f.
@Tom Taipalus posted:im lost. please explain how the el cap sets were somewhat orphaned and how that has anything to do with the sdp40f.
I believe he is referring to the very limited production GGD Amtrak El Cap sets which are “somewhat orphaned” because they do not have any prototypical Amtrak head end power to pull them. A couple of 3rd rail SDP40f’s would solve that.
@BigJohn&theWork posted:I believe he is referring to the very limited production GGD Amtrak El Cap sets which are “somewhat orphaned” because they do not have any prototypical Amtrak head end power to pull them. A couple of 3rd rail SDP40f’s would solve that.
What he said.
Id buy a trio of SDP40Fs for just such a purpose.
@Boilermaker1 posted:What he said.
Id buy a trio of SDP40Fs for just such a purpose.
Same here!
Since the thread has wandered there, I’ll also go for the F45 in Santa Fe yellow bonnet and the post-Amtrak SDF40-2 in ATSF yellow bonnet. Do the latter in its post-1988 appearance with the modified nose and step wells (my own preference) and it can also be painted as BNSF 6967 in the Maersk display scheme.
RM
@rdunniii posted:Yes, but, the expensive part, the body shell, is mostly different. Only the cab area is the same. The sides, the roof and the ends are different. Don't get me wrong, I want SDP40Fs not FP45s but... Even the first run of SDP40Fs is different from the second run.
And dont forget that ATSF did buy some of those SDP40F from Amtrak and painted then in the yellow bonnet scheme.
So thats 3 schemes of Amtrak plus Santa Fe and maybe a Maersk.
The Maersk is an SDP40F not an FP45.
I feel like this could be an opportunity for more Hi-Levels, and possibly Superliner Is. If offered, SDP40Fs should be offered with equipment to go with them imo. So far, Superliner Is have only been offered in Railking and brass.
Hi-Levels appeared in Amtrak Phases I-III, some coaches made it to Phase IV, and the lounges went to Phase VI as Parlour Cars.
Besides appearing in Phases I-VI, select Superliner I coaches have appeared in Amtrak CA, and the Surfliner paint scheme.
@GenesisFan99 posted:I feel like this could be an opportunity for more Hi-Levels, and possibly Superliner Is. If offered, SDP40Fs should be offered with equipment to go with them imo. So far, Superliner Is have only been offered in Railking and brass.
Hi-Levels appeared in Amtrak Phases I-III, some coaches made it to Phase IV, and the lounges went to Phase VI as Parlour Cars.
Besides appearing in Phases I-VI, select Superliner I coaches have appeared in Amtrak CA, and the Surfliner paint scheme.
I would for sure be in for Superliner Is.
Superliners and SDP40Fs are incompatible. Superliners are HEP only and SDP40Fs are steam only.
@rdunniii posted:Superliners and SDP40Fs are incompatible. Superliners are HEP only and SDP40Fs are steam only.
True, but they did run together. The SDP40Fs eventually had HEP cables installed for pass-through.
@GenesisFan99 posted:True, but they did run together. The SDP40Fs eventually had HEP cables installed for pass-through.
Where when? The Superliners ran with F40s from the day they were delivered.
@rdunniii posted:Where when? The Superliners ran with F40s from the day they were delivered.
Right, an F40 was required, but SDP40Fs did run in Superliner consists. As I understand it, the SDP40Fs that weren’t scrapped or sent to EMD to be rebuilt into F40PHRs were given the HEP pass-through treatment. Last SDP40F to leave the roster according to the Wikipedia article was in 1987.
Here’s a couple photos I found. First photo by Craig Walter, second is by Roger Puta (public domain).
Agreed. The SDP40F did play a minor role in pulling of Superliners mainly on the Southwest Limited when mated with an F40PH for HEP. Several got painted into the Phase III paint scheme even.
However, to get back on topic good sales on the FP45 and potentially an F45 to go with it would be the gateway to possibly getting a SDP40F to move forward. I don't see that happening any other way. The SDP40F is a locomotive I would like to see someday, just give it time.
I don't see 3rd Rail doing an F40PH as there have been so many done by MTH, K-Line and Lionel. Granted none are completely correct and running qualities vary, but when I can find a mostly accurate K-line Phase II F40PH (not paint scheme but later spec version) for around $200 it is hard to justify tooling a new one at this time as it would mostly come down to the 2 rail side to carry the lion's share of the orders. Maybe down the road? Not that I wouldn't want several.
Cool! thanks for the pics. If the SDP40F is not done as part of this project, ala the tunnel motors with the SD40-2s it won't happen for the foreseeable future and never standalone. I actually don't think there will be sufficient reservations for all of them together or separately but I sure have my fingers crossed.
If we could get the SDP40F added, I'd be in for three of those too. I will never retire at this rate.
@GG1 4877 posted:If we could get the SDP40F added, I'd be in for three of those too. I will never retire at this rate.
The real question would be; WHICH version on the SDP40F?
1) The original first order of 40 units (with the 'pointy' nose door)?
2) Subsequent orders of units without that "special" front nose?
3) Various units with different paint schemes, regardless of which order?
So, SO many options.
@Hot Water posted:The real question would be; WHICH version on the SDP40F?
1) The original first order of 40 units (with the 'pointy' nose door)?
2) Subsequent orders of units without that "special" front nose?
3) Various units with different paint schemes, regardless of which order?
So, SO many options.
There isnt many options if you place yourself in the shoes of thr mfg/importer. You choose the model with the most paint schemes just like the GP7/9 project. So it appears the "flat nose" could win out since:
No 3 rail mfg did this type of cab- not sure about O scale.
The ATSF/ BNSF had them
The Maersk unit was painted on a flat nose unit.
Emdx Test beds #134 & #169 were also flat nose models
At least two schemes of Amtrak were painted on those flat nose units.
Looks like multiple paint scheme unit design wins!
@sdmann posted:Hi Folks,
So many of you have suggested this model. Lets start a discussion of what versions and Liveries are wanted and I will put them up for reservation.
Lots of good discussion, even in a few unintended directions. For the FP45 project, it appears the SDP40F and F40C are also similar in car-body and length. An F45 and F40PH would most likely be completely separate projects if ever considered. Both I think should be. BUT, this is for Scott to determine. I think what he needs to do is put all of up for consideration and see where the orders take him.
Regarding the F40PH, while other MFG's have produced them, they have been lacking in appearance except for Overland Models in 2-Rail brass. True even with the latest Lionel offerings. I question whether any of these other MFG's are really competitors to Sunset. Case in point: F7s and F3's. Everybody has produced these in the past, yet Sunset had a very successful run in both 2 Rail and 3 Rail. Same with the E Units. Sunset continues to bring these out with success.
Talking about passenger trains for the Golden Gate Depot Line, NOBODY has adequately done the Superliner 1 cars. The Overland Brass cars had twisting problems, which they corrected for the Superliner II cars. The II cars never had any of the colorful striped paint schemes, so the Superliner I cars would be the most popular.
When somebody asks a question to a group, I normally don't encourage people to wander off topic, but since Scott should have his paint scheme information by now, I see no harm in participating in the now off topic discussion. Since passenger trains have been mentioned; what do you guys think of the Chicago & North Western Bi-level cars? For paint schemes you'd have CNW, at least 2 Metra Schemes and Rock Island. Did anybody else have these?
We should also harass the man for a C&NW 400 train. For some reason I feel we're "entitled" to one of these.
@Brad Kowal posted:Lots of good discussion, even in a few unintended directions. For the FP45 project, it appears the SDP40F and F40C are also similar in car-body and length. An F45 and F40PH would most likely be completely separate projects if ever considered. Both I think should be. BUT, this is for Scott to determine. I think what he needs to do is put all of up for consideration and see where the orders take him.
Regarding the F40PH, while other MFG's have produced them, they have been lacking in appearance except for Overland Models in 2-Rail brass. True even with the latest Lionel offerings. I question whether any of these other MFG's are really competitors to Sunset. Case in point: F7s and F3's. Everybody has produced these in the past, yet Sunset had a very successful run in both 2 Rail and 3 Rail. Same with the E Units. Sunset continues to bring these out with success.
Talking about passenger trains for the Golden Gate Depot Line, NOBODY has adequately done the Superliner 1 cars. The Overland Brass cars had twisting problems, which they corrected for the Superliner II cars. The II cars never had any of the colorful striped paint schemes, so the Superliner I cars would be the most popular.
When somebody asks a question to a group, I normally don't encourage people to wander off topic, but since Scott should have his paint scheme information by now, I see no harm in participating in the now off topic discussion. Since passenger trains have been mentioned; what do you guys think of the Chicago & North Western Bi-level cars? For paint schemes you'd have CNW, at least 2 Metra Schemes and Rock Island. Did anybody else have these?
We should also harass the man for a C&NW 400 train. For some reason I feel we're "entitled" to one of these.
I'd be in for the F40PH! Main reason is one 3R/GGD. The second is they are hard to find in the market.
I'd be in for bi-level cars. The Sante Fe, Amtrak Superliners, C&NW and Metra all speak to me and would order each if Scott decides to head down that path.
@Brad Kowal posted:Lots of good discussion, even in a few unintended directions. Talking about passenger trains for the Golden Gate Depot Line, NOBODY has adequately done the Superliner 1 cars. The Overland Brass cars had twisting problems, which they corrected for the Superliner II cars. The II cars never had any of the colorful striped paint schemes, so the Superliner I cars would be the most popular.
When somebody asks a question to a group, I normally don't encourage people to wander off topic, but since Scott should have his paint scheme information by now, I see no harm in participating in the now off topic discussion. Since passenger trains have been mentioned; what do you guys think of the Chicago & North Western Bi-level cars? For paint schemes you'd have CNW, at least 2 Metra Schemes and Rock Island. Did anybody else have these?
We should also harass the man for a C&NW 400 train. For some reason I feel we're "entitled" to one of these.
This should really be discussed in another thread or my "Which superliner would you choose" thread.
In regards go bi levels, im not sure about scale brass but in 3 rail MTH made several runs of the Pullman 18" smoothside bi-levels in Metra, CNW, RI, and Amtrak.
Sorry, But the F40PH would be a Waste for Scott to make as Atlas just got the MTH F40PH as part of their purchase and will most likely be releasing that model - Again.
Let's do a Model which has Not been done correctly in O scale such as the FP45.
@Brad Kowal posted:Since passenger trains have been mentioned; what do you guys think of the Chicago & North Western Bi-level cars? For paint schemes you'd have CNW, at least 2 Metra Schemes and Rock Island. Did anybody else have these?
Also second life: Amtrak, Alaska Railroad, Princess Cruises, CalTrain, Virginia Railway Express.
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:Also second life: Amtrak, Alaska Railroad, Princess Cruises, CalTrain, Virginia Railway Express.
Rusty
At least 2 paint schemes for SP. The lark 2 tone grey scheme and the later solid grey scheme. I’d be all over some SP cars particularly in the earlier scheme!
@SPSF posted:Sorry, But the F40PH would be a Waste for Scott to make as Atlas just got the MTH F40PH as part of their purchase and will most likely be releasing that model - Again.
Let's do a Model which has Not been done correctly in O scale such as the FP45.
Agreed in most respects with only a few exceptions:
FP45 is higher on my list for sure as is the SDP40F.
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:This should really be discussed in another thread or my "Which superliner would you choose" thread.
In regards go bi levels, im not sure about scale brass but in 3 rail MTH made several runs of the Pullman 18" smoothside bi-levels in Metra, CNW, RI, and Amtrak.
The prototype is 85' long, which is 21-1/4" in "O" Scale.
@SPSF posted:Sorry, But the F40PH would be a Waste for Scott to make as Atlas just got the MTH F40PH as part of their purchase and will most likely be releasing that model - Again.
Let's do a Model which has Not been done correctly in O scale such as the FP45.
Again, MTH is not Sunset. Sunset is directed toward the scale end of the spectrum (be it 3 rail or 2 rail). Even if Atlas modifies the dies and doesn't just add it to their "Industrial" line, they will have bad drives and probably still sit too high off the trucks.
BTW: US Hobbies did the FP45. They come up for sale quite often and sell for about $400. US Hobbies did the F45 a bit later and had better looking fan and grille work. Those sell for about $550. Lots of detail parts available if somebody wants to work them over. 3 Rail electronics available for those that want to convert it to 3 Rail. The Sunset units would be better detailed and painted, so still a benefit, but not something that hasn't been done before.
Don't be afraid of somebody getting a model they want. Sunset can crank this stuff out for years. It's not a situation where they can make only one more diesel.
@Rusty Traque posted:Also second life: Amtrak, Alaska Railroad, Princess Cruises, CalTrain, Virginia Railway Express.
Rusty
Were the Amtak cars ex CNW or Milwaukee Road? I was discussing this with somebody else yesterday and neither of us are quite sure.
@Brad Kowal posted:Lots of good discussion:
Regarding the F40PH, while other MFG's have produced them, they have been lacking in appearance except for Overland Models in 2-Rail brass. True even with the latest Lionel offerings. I question whether any of these other MFG's are really competitors to Sunset. Case in point: F7s and F3's. Everybody has produced these in the past, yet Sunset had a very successful run in both 2 Rail and 3 Rail. Same with the E Units. Sunset continues to bring these out with success.
Note that you are comparing two different demographic bases here. The people that bought into the 3rd rail F and E units don't necessarily go into second generation diesel units. All those F and E units sold were mostly original buyer paint schemes and not secondary owners. Many modelers love to model railroads "Gplden Age" of the late 1940's to late 1950's. Scott M.had a hard time with the FP45 and SDP40F's several years ago along with trying to sell Amtrak cars- both heritage [slumber coach and sleepers] and Bi-Levels [two runs of the El Capitan Amtrak sets netted less than 20 sets made in both scale and 3 rail. How about those SD40-2's? Its been several years and "two order lifes" on EMD's most popular diesel. Only now it seems to be ready for its first production run. Will there be a second run of SD40-2 right after or be another "FP7/SD7/SD9" one run tooling sitting on the sidelines? Is there enough non Lionel/2 rail buyers out there for the popular EMD second generation units?
When I goto 2 rail O Scale clubs I hardly see any second generation diesels running around-never mind contemporary model railroad models.
@Brad Kowal posted:Were the Amtak cars ex CNW or Milwaukee Road? I was discussing this with somebody else yesterday and neither of us are quite sure.
C&NW. Milwaukee only had fluted stainless steel P/S bi-levels.
Rusty
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:Note that you are comparing two different demographic bases here. The people that bought into the 3rd rail F and E units don't necessarily go into second generation diesel units. All those F and E units sold were mostly original buyer paint schemes and not secondary owners. Many modelers love to model railroads "Gplden Age" of the late 1940's to late 1950's. Scott M.had a hard time with the FP45 and SDP40F's several years ago along with trying to sell Amtrak cars- both heritage [slumber coach and sleepers] and Bi-Levels [two runs of the El Capitan Amtrak sets netted less than 20 sets made in both scale and 3 rail. How about those SD40-2's? Its been several years and "two order lifes" on EMD's most popular diesel. Only now it seems to be ready for its first production run. Will there be a second run of SD40-2 right after or be another "FP7/SD7/SD9" one run tooling sitting on the sidelines? Is there enough non Lionel/2 rail buyers out there for the popular EMD second generation units?
When I goto 2 rail O Scale clubs I hardly see any second generation diesels running around-never mind contemporary model railroad models.
All valid points. There is additional information that we do know along with information that we don't know.
With regards to clubs, they just don't work anymore. A club matures and takes on a culture of it's own. New people become interested, however they're told "no" so many times they eventually loose interest and go away. There are exceptions, but too far and few between for us to use clubs as a measure of interest for the hobby.
Whenever a MFG produces a modern locomotive or car, they sell out and you don't find the stuff for sale very often. I'm specifically thinking about the Overland Models Brass SD90MAC, AC4400 and Atlas MP15DC and SD40. I don't want to get too deep into this discussion, however the point I'd like to make is that there are modern modelers out there. They're just not as easy for us to see.
What we don't know is why Sunset initially had difficulty attracting orders for the SD40-2. Was it really because of a lack of interest in a modern diesel? I think it has more to do with the current Sunset market, than a current overall interest in models. Unless you have an interest in the older stuff as well as the newer stuff, a modern modeler probably knows little about Sunset. As they produce more modern models, that should change. We will see.
One positive note for "O" Scale: With regards to the Chicago March O Scale Meet; more names are being added to the mailing list than those removed. We need more of the younger segment of the hobby to attend these meets to encourage the mfg's to produce more modern models!
@Rusty Traque posted:C&NW. Milwaukee only had fluted stainless steel P/S bi-levels.
Rusty
So, the CNW Bi-levels could be offered in C&NW, SP, RI, Metra Scheme 1, Metra Scheme 2 and Amtrak....
@GG1 4877 posted:Agreed in most respects with only a few exceptions:
- The MTH version has a wildly inaccurate front pilot which I hope Atlas will fix.
- Locomotives with the GGD drive all run well together and an F40PH leading a SDP40F would be very desirable.
FP45 is higher on my list for sure as is the SDP40F.
Mth models also generally have dimensional issues and, looking at photos, I don't think the f40ph is exempt from that. That's why MTH stuff almost always looks 'off'.
@Brad Kowal posted:Whenever a MFG produces a modern locomotive or car, they sell out and you don't find the stuff for sale very often. I'm specifically thinking about the Overland Models Brass SD90MAC, AC4400 and Atlas MP15DC and SD40. I don't want to get too deep into this discussion, however the point I'd like to make is that there are modern modelers out there. They're just not as easy for us to see.
Agree. One model I've been wanting to get my hands on is an SD80MAC. There are four, count 'em four, on the auction site right now and only two in the road name I'd like. One is an earlier version from MTH that have blind inside drivers - no thanks - and both are from a less than reputable seller. AND both are used with one going for more than original MSRP with the other very near it.
What we don't know is why Sunset initially had difficulty attracting orders for the SD40-2. Was it really because of a lack of interest in a modern diesel? I think it has more to do with the current Sunset market, than a current overall interest in models. Unless you have an interest in the older stuff as well as the newer stuff, a modern modeler probably knows little about Sunset. As they produce more modern models, that should change. We will see.
I think you are right. As I started to get more into the O gauge world I started to learn about the inaccuracies in some of the models from Lionel and MTH. Don't get me wrong - they also make some EXCELLENT 3-rail models and they are definitely not the only ones that have issued less than accurate items. Once I found out about 3rd rail and that they had an SD40-2 project, I immediately signed up for two - preordering based on their reputation.
The SD40-2 is something I saw a lot of growing up on the former PRR mainline near Lilly and Cresson PA. I'm only now getting to the age where I have a house I own and enough savings to start building a model railroad.
@Oxolotleman posted:Mth models also generally have dimensional issues and, looking at photos, I don't think the f40ph is exempt from that. That's why MTH stuff almost always looks 'off'.
Some do, some don't. Their rendition of the F40PH is not perfect, but if you mount the plow, the pilot becomes a bit more passable, swinging aside. I think the tooling was updated at some point. The PS1 versions I've seen are not great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErRKm2IvtAw
Also, reference this image from the MTH site:
https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...images/20-2713-1.jpg
vs. a scale drawing here from Trainiax
MTH updated the Premier F40 starting with the PS2 version.
In 1975, at 10 years old, I took these pictures of SDP40 power on the San Francisco Zephyr at Cheyenne WY. The Engineer invited me into the cab. Quite a memorable day! 
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