@VistaDomeScott posted:In 1975, at 10 years old, I took these pictures of SDP40 power on the San Francisco Zephyr at Cheyenne WY. The Engineer invited me into the cab. Quite a memorable day!
Very cool.
With the nice rolling stock you have Scott, I imagine you pretty much need an SDP40F to go with it all haha.
Genesisfan99
They would be a great upgrade from my RK scale FP45's!
Scott
THE question you have to ask yourself... this will most likely be a Kraus Maffei project numbers wise. Are you prepared to spend $1200 per unit to get them done like the K-M folks are? For me the answer is yes.
The Dash 9s are in the same predicament. The FAs are slightly better off. The SD40-2 project is better now but still short the numbers to keep them at $8-900 each.
@rdunniii posted:THE question you have to ask yourself... this will most likely be a Kraus Maffei project numbers wise. Are you prepared to spend $1200 per unit to get them done like the K-M folks are? For me the answer is yes.
The Dash 9s are in the same predicament. The FAs are slightly better off. The SD40-2 project is better now but still short the numbers to keep them at $8-900 each.
Ouch to all of this $ information. I sure hope more reservations come in. My number of reservations will reluctantly have to drop if the above numbers become reality. The SD40-2 just had a modest price increase and seemed to have a jump in interest that I hope equated to more reservations. I was thinking of upping my order from 3 to 4. I’m not sure that will happen with possible unit price increases. 😮😖😑☹️
@rdunniii posted:THE question you have to ask yourself... this will most likely be a Kraus Maffei project numbers wise. Are you prepared to spend $1200 per unit to get them done like the K-M folks are? For me the answer is yes.
The Dash 9s are in the same predicament. The FAs are slightly better off. The SD40-2 project is better now but still short the numbers to keep them at $8-900 each.
Santa Fe, Milwaukee Road and Wisconsin Central are popular railroads. The FP45s lasted well into the double stack container era on Santa Fe and WC. They were used in passenger service then later freight. I don't think there will be a problem obtaining orders for these. The MK locomotive??? We can argue all points forever, but it doesn't matter. Sunset can put it on their website and see where the orders take them.
As far as the Dash-9 and SD40-2......these are locomotives for a market different than what Sunset currently has now, so it might take a while. If there is still a lack of orders, perhaps a transition locomotive needs to be done, such as the SD45?
@Brad Kowal posted:Santa Fe, Milwaukee Road and Wisconsin Central are popular railroads. The FP45s lasted well into the double stack container era on Santa Fe and WC. They were used in passenger service then later freight. I don't think there will be a problem obtaining orders for these. The MK locomotive??? We can argue all points forever, but it doesn't matter. Sunset can put it on their website and see where the orders take them.
As far as the Dash-9 and SD40-2......these are locomotives for a market different than what Sunset currently has now, so it might take a while. If there is still a lack of orders, perhaps a transition locomotive needs to be done, such as the SD45?
So, if he lists it for $800-900 and 18 months from now he's has less than, say, 250-300 reservations, you'd prefer it just be cancelled? Because that is what is likely to happen with those others and the E60 which is even worse off. Maybe some of the E60 folks are willing to pay $1500+ for less than 100 models but they are not 100% of the less than 100 who have reserved them so far.
It's not how long they lasted, it's when they were mainstream, and most O gauge/scale folks aren't interested in much after about 1960s. Which is why the GP9s did so well and people are passionate about them. Even though every manufacturer on the planet has done them, sometimes multiple runs.
And yes Santa Fe and Milwaukee are popular. But, I don't hear a peep asking about a Milwaukee Atlantic or F7 Hudson from steam fans. But a 500th run of a Dreyfus Hudson,by anybody? oh yeah. The northeast road fans are also a large part of this market and even if they are interested in more modern stuff they are not interested in western stuff. I think Pennsylvania was one of the most popular GP9s. I'd bet FP and F45s would get more reservations in SuzyQ than Milwaukee or Wisconsin Central.
The SD45 has been accurately done by Lionel BTO and MTH Premier & now purchased by Atlas.
@rdunniii posted:So, if he lists it for $800-900 and 18 months from now he's has less than, say, 250-300 reservations, you'd prefer it just be cancelled? Because that is what is likely to happen with those others and the E60 which is even worse off. Maybe some of the E60 folks are willing to pay $1500+ for less than 100 models but they are not 100% of the less than 100 who have reserved them so far.
It's not how long they lasted, it's when they were mainstream, and most O gauge/scale folks aren't interested in much after about 1960s. Which is why the GP9s did so well and people are passionate about them. Even though every manufacturer on the planet has done them, sometimes multiple runs.
And yes Santa Fe and Milwaukee are popular. But, I don't hear a peep asking about a Milwaukee Atlantic or F7 Hudson from steam fans. But a 500th run of a Dreyfus Hudson,by anybody? oh yeah. The northeast road fans are also a large part of this market and even if they are interested in more modern stuff they are not interested in western stuff. I think Pennsylvania was one of the most popular GP9s. I'd bet FP and F45s would get more reservations in SuzyQ than Milwaukee or Wisconsin Central.
The market surely talks via the reservations any model generates. The older guys want the early generation diesels and obviously there are enough of them to trigger a go on a model. Yes they are not that interested in more recent models - and there appears to not be enough people of Any age to launch runs of recent vintage diesels. Eastern buyers are a much larger population base so they will Always have a better chance of seeing their favorites made. That’s why we are deluged with Penn and NYC. Big roads from the east usually dominate a run and other smaller demographic roads are lucky to get included in the run.
This is just The Market we have.
The other variable is cost. The higher the number of unit that are reserved the better pricing we see. If the number of units are weak, the run can only proceed with a price bump. We can see these differences when we compare the Krauss Maffei with the EA,E1 runs. Big difference in cost as the KM is priced to make money while selling a small number of units to a very select market. The Es have a smaller Union price as more will be made.
The E60, while popular as an Amtrak model, probably is being held back by a geographic focus in a narrow eastern corridor that is electrified. So it’s a smaller subset of a dominant area.
There’s just multiple factors that drive this market !!!! Ages of buyers, population locations, price points per unit - all in a tug of war. ( Steam is another story - perhaps very similar.). Very simply put - show up in enough numbers and it will get done. If not enough show up / it Might get done if Everyone is willing to pay a higher price. If not, it Should Be Dropped. IMO, removing projects not going anywhere Could help redirect dollars to other projects needing a bit of a boost the make that economic threshold to launch a model into production.
Cheers 😜
@TrainBub posted:The market surely talks via the reservations any model generates. The older guys want the early generation diesels and obviously there are enough of them to trigger a go on a model. Yes they are not that interested in more recent models - and there appears to not be enough people of Any age to launch runs of recent vintage diesels. Eastern buyers are a much larger population base so they will Always have a better chance of seeing their favorites made. That’s why we are deluged with Penn and NYC. Big roads from the east usually dominate a run and other smaller demographic roads are lucky to get included in the run.
This is just The Market we have.
The other variable is cost. The higher the number of unit that are reserved the better pricing we see. If the number of units are weak, the run can only proceed with a price bump. We can see these differences when we compare the Krauss Maffei with the EA,E1 runs. Big difference in cost as the KM is priced to make money while selling a small number of units to a very select market. The Es have a smaller Union price as more will be made.
The E60, while popular as an Amtrak model, probably is being held back by a geographic focus in a narrow eastern corridor that is electrified. So it’s a smaller subset of a dominant area.
There’s just multiple factors that drive this market !!!! Ages of buyers, population locations, price points per unit - all in a tug of war. ( Steam is another story - perhaps very similar.). Very simply put - show up in enough numbers and it will get done. If not enough show up / it Might get done if Everyone is willing to pay a higher price. If not, it Should Be Dropped. IMO, removing projects not going anywhere Could help redirect dollars to other projects needing a bit of a boost the make that economic threshold to launch a model into production.
Cheers 😜
Since we're talking about both the sdp40f and e60 how about something that combines the bad parts of both, the p30ch; I'm interested in those.
@Oxolotleman posted:Since we're talking about both the sdp40f and e60 how about something that combines the bad parts of both, the p30ch; I'm interested in those.
Ill take anything Amtrak, pooches, e-60s, p42s
A bit off-topic, but does anyone know the status of the E60's? I'd like to pre-order one very soon.
I also believe the F45/FP45's could sell reasonably well, but I can understand what some of you are saying about locomotives made after the '60's.
@carnerd3000 posted:A bit off-topic, but does anyone know the status of the E60's? I'd like to pre-order one very soon.
I also believe the F45/FP45's could sell reasonably well, but I can understand what some of you are saying about locomotives made after the '60's.
The website says E60s are wide open for reservations.
Sunset doesn’t really do pre-orders. It’s a reservation treated as a promise to buy on arrival of the model. You’re not out $ if it doesn’t get made, and money only comes out of pocket when it arrives.
@GenesisFan99 posted:The website says E60s are wide open for reservations.
Sunset doesn’t really do pre-orders. It’s a reservation treated as a promise to buy on arrival of the model. You’re not out $ if it doesn’t get made, and money only comes out of pocket when it arrives.
My apologies, that's what I meant to say. 
I really want it to be produced, and I can accept the price that it is projected to be ATM. But if it ends up costing as much as the Krauss-Maffei, I'm not so sure. I know these are just comments on the internet, and ultimately Scott is the one that will make the decisions regarding the projects.
No ones reservations will be switched to a new price. The original listing will be cancelled and a new one with a new price posted. Everyone who originally reserved will be notified. It is then their choice. The K-Ms at the new price survived. Others may not.
I will be the first to admit I am clueless about what does well. I don't understand the GP7/9s, I didn't understand the EL-2Bs, I didn't understand the Jawn Henry, I don't understand the SD40-2 or the alternative GP40-2s or the fact that adding tunnel motors might save the project. There are many more.
@rdunniii posted:I will be the first to admit I am clueless about what does well. I don't understand the GP7/9s, I didn't understand the EL-2Bs, I didn't understand the Jawn Henry, I don't understand the SD40-2 or the alternative GP40-2s or the fact that adding tunnel motors might save the project. There are many more.
What would make sense then?
@rdunniii posted:So, if he lists it for $800-900 and 18 months from now he's has less than, say, 250-300 reservations, you'd prefer it just be cancelled? Because that is what is likely to happen with those others and the E60 which is even worse off. Maybe some of the E60 folks are willing to pay $1500+ for less than 100 models but they are not 100% of the less than 100 who have reserved them so far.
It's not how long they lasted, it's when they were mainstream, and most O gauge/scale folks aren't interested in much after about 1960s. Which is why the GP9s did so well and people are passionate about them. Even though every manufacturer on the planet has done them, sometimes multiple runs.
And yes Santa Fe and Milwaukee are popular. But, I don't hear a peep asking about a Milwaukee Atlantic or F7 Hudson from steam fans. But a 500th run of a Dreyfus Hudson,by anybody? oh yeah. The northeast road fans are also a large part of this market and even if they are interested in more modern stuff they are not interested in western stuff. I think Pennsylvania was one of the most popular GP9s. I'd bet FP and F45s would get more reservations in SuzyQ than Milwaukee or Wisconsin Central.
My preference is for everybody to get what they want and for those disinterested in a particular project to not be mad that somebody else might get something they want. Nobody will be any worse off in their lives simply because a proposed project.
The 1960's and prior thinking fails to recognize that Weaver had successful runs with their SD40-2 and GP38-2, despite their shortcomings. Atlas has done well with modern horsepower: SW1200, MP15DC, GP15-1, SD40, GP60, Dash 8-40BW, Dash 8-32BWH, Dash 8-40CW. This stuff does sell. Sunset has yet to produce a model in this category, so it is understandable that the market doesn't YET look to Sunset. That will change over time as Sunset starts to produce products that interest the younger segment of the hobby. For the most part people pay attention to what interests them. So some might be surprised that the aforementioned Milwaukee Atlantic and F7 Hudson have been done twice in scale: Weaver and Overland. As far "Western Stuff" Santa Fe and Union Pacific have always had strong sales. So there:-)
Regardless of this, that or the other thing; our opinions mean nothing. It's all about the reservations.
@SPSF posted:The SD45 has been accurately done by Lionel BTO and MTH Premier & now purchased by Atlas.
True for the O Gauge segment, but not the O Scale segment. One particular mfg has attracted almost an obscene amount of interest for an SD45 at an obscene price, but has been unable to produce for issues other money and reservations.
@Brad Kowal posted:My preference is for everybody to get what they want and for those disinterested in a particular project to not be mad that somebody else might get something they want. Nobody will be any worse off in their lives simply because a proposed project.
The 1960's and prior thinking fails to recognize that Weaver had successful runs with their SD40-2 and GP38-2, despite their shortcomings. Atlas has done well with modern horsepower: SW1200, MP15DC, GP15-1, SD40, GP60, Dash 8-40BW, Dash 8-32BWH, Dash 8-40CW. This stuff does sell. Sunset has yet to produce a model in this category, so it is understandable that the market doesn't YET look to Sunset. That will change over time as Sunset starts to produce products that interest the younger segment of the hobby. For the most part people pay attention to what interests them. So some might be surprised that the aforementioned Milwaukee Atlantic and F7 Hudson have been done twice in scale: Weaver and Overland. As far "Western Stuff" Santa Fe and Union Pacific have always had strong sales. So there:-)
Regardless of this, that or the other thing; our opinions mean nothing. It's all about the reservations.
I'm interested in all eras really. I don't know how many people fall into this camp, but I'm a fan of projects that have either never been done - or things with wide use that have never been done all that accurately - or we haven't seen in a very long time.
With over 4000 produced, and a model that started out almost 50 years ago now, I'm surprised the SD40-2s aren't more popular. I'm not into electric engines all that much, but any of the older Amtrak mainline diesels I'll probably reserve, though I'd prefer something that was in phase II or III to go with my Amfleet set. I would settle for Phase IV, but I'm not a fan of the Phase I paint. That said the from what I know (which is very little) the FP45 never wore any Amtrak paint scheme.
@rplst8 posted:That said the from what I know (which is very little) the FP45 never wore any Amtrak paint scheme.
It appears Athearn thinks they did...in HO, at least! 🙂
Mark in Oregon
@rplst8 posted:I'm interested in all eras really. I don't know how many people fall into this camp, but I'm a fan of projects that have either never been done - or things with wide use that have never been done all that accurately - or we haven't seen in a very long time.
With over 4000 produced, and a model that started out almost 50 years ago now, I'm surprised the SD40-2s aren't more popular. I'm not into electric engines all that much, but any of the older Amtrak mainline diesels I'll probably reserve, though I'd prefer something that was in phase II or III to go with my Amfleet set. I would settle for Phase IV, but I'm not a fan of the Phase I paint. That said the from what I know (which is very little) the FP45 never wore any Amtrak paint scheme.
I don’t get that the SD40-2s aren’t more popular either. 😖
@rplst8 posted:That said the from what I know (which is very little) the FP45 never wore any Amtrak paint scheme.
@Strummer posted:It appears Athearn thinks they did...in HO, at least! 🙂
Mark in Oregon
That was the Athearn of the past. The Athearn of the present offered proper SDP40F's. 
Rusty
@TrainBub posted:I don’t get that the SD40-2s aren’t more popular either. 😖
SD40-2's are popular, but most that model this era don't know Sunset (yet), so they either don't know of the announcement or don't know the quality.
The fact that we are even having these discussions shows how far O Scale is still evolving, bit by bit. Would we be having them at all if it was only Atlas, Lionel, MTH and brass? The others who tried in the past came and went
Awesome!
@rdunniii posted:The fact that we are even having these discussions shows how far O Scale is still evolving, bit by bit. Would we be having them at all if it was only Atlas, Lionel, MTH and brass? The others who tried in the past came and went
Awesome!
So pleased / grateful with the wonderful product Scott has been delivering. I want quicker product delivery (of course no quality compromises) on one hand but on the other hand don’t want it all at once as it keeps me very broke. 😳🤣🤣🤣 And of course the engine and passenger car factories can only gin out so much !!!!! Somehow I imagine the deliveries would be a bit smoother if Scott were able to be onsite for QC.
3rd Rail / Sunset should be able to grow into a more era-diverse offering as more people discover your products. The flexibility of a small company that can maneuver to meet specific demand is definitely beneficial. Accessibility to the decision makers is possible is a Big Plus too - and getting a reply !!! Wow !!!
For YEARS I tried to get MTH to do a Mikadopalooza - a big run of generic black or black and silver Mikados so they could offer lots of underrepresented Roads. Just change the road name and a number a viola lots of satisfied buyers. I Really wanted a nice MP steam engine. Never a reply. Stunning silence !!! Crickets!!!!!!!!!! I may not be able to ever get Scott to do steam in my favorite MP, MKT, or Frisco - but along the way Scott and I will have a dialog. That’s Big to me !!!!! (And yes I fell out on my chair when Scott offered the T&P steam offering - of course I got one of those beauties !!!!!!!!!!!! So Grateful!!!! ) Cheers
@TrainBub posted:I don’t get that the SD40-2s aren’t more popular either. 😖
Well because the market pretty much has been flooded with them, especially the 3 rail side. Weaver did a couple of runs B4 selling the tooling to MTH. MTH did them in PS2 and PS3 with 3/2 trucks. Omi did them in brass, kts from lws, clw and others. ATLAS O did the similar SD40. Lionel has also made both the SD40-2 and the SD40.
With 3rd rail trying to gather up reservations for a loco thats been done at $750-800 ea, I'm sure there are people out there thinking they can buy used and detail one up cheaper than the new one. This cuts into firm reservations.
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:Well because the market pretty much has been flooded with them, especially the 3 rail side. Weaver did a couple of runs B4 selling the tooling to MTH. MTH did them in PS2 and PS3 with 3/2 trucks. Omi did them in brass, kts from lws, clw and others. ATLAS O did the similar SD40. Lionel has also made both the SD40-2 and the SD40.
The MTH and Lionel offerings are so inaccurate they are borderline caricatures of the real thing. No offense to either of them overall, they have made great models of other diesels - just not this one.
As for Atlas's SD40 - I'm sure it's great as are my Atlas SD35s, but an SD40 is quite a bit different looks wise. The SD40-2 is a very unique looking prototype with the big front and rear porches.
To anyone that owns an existing SD40 or SD40-2 from the other manufacturers, I guarantee an accurately done SD40-2 will look like nothing else on your layout. I think this is what makes the FP45 so compelling too as it's a very different looking prototype, even though it saw limited use.
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:Well because the market pretty much has been flooded with them, especially the 3 rail side. Weaver did a couple of runs B4 selling the tooling to MTH. MTH did them in PS2 and PS3 with 3/2 trucks. Omi did them in brass, kts from lws, clw and others. ATLAS O did the similar SD40. Lionel has also made both the SD40-2 and the SD40.
With 3rd rail trying to gather up reservations for a loco thats been done at $750-800 ea, I'm sure there are people out there thinking they can buy used and detail one up cheaper than the new one. This cuts into firm reservations.
Perhaps I should have been more succinct in my comment and said - I don’t get that the 3rd Rail SD40-2s aren’t more popular - are short on reservations. I didn’t know the MTH was Weaver old tooling. They were ok but sat way too tall (a big reason I Gave Up buying MTH diesels - and rolling stock and began selling them off). Atlas product was Always nice but MIA for what 10 years or so now. Cant buy what’s not produced. Lionel - hmm. Too much out of the box broken or doesn’t work and oft times no customer support. The others I’m not familiar with. Sure you can troll the used market. I’ve done that for scarce runs. Trick out a plain model ? Sure if that’s your thing. Something for everyone.
Yes. Lots of previous SD40-2 models are out there from previous runs and can be had cheaper. Perhaps I simply view the 3rd Rail model will be a Serious Reliable Upgrade to previous efforts and am willing to pay for that upgrade. It’s about, choice, viewpoint, perception, and (expected) goods delivered. All this IMHO.
And so far not enough reservations to make the project “a go”. 😖 Time will tell.
Cheers
@Oxolotleman posted:Since we're talking about both the sdp40f and e60 how about something that combines the bad parts of both, the p30ch; I'm interested in those.
The issue with the P30ch is its only 1 road with two paint schemes. While I would jump to reserve two, there are not a lot of older GE fans. However one can try and see.
The SDP40F has several paint schemes in Amtrak plus being sold off to the Santa Fe as well as one painted in Maersk and painted in at least two test bed paint schemes by EMD, makes this unit more enticing to make and find buyers!
@rdunniii posted:THE question you have to ask yourself... this will most likely be a Kraus Maffei project numbers wise. Are you prepared to spend $1200 per unit to get them done like the K-M folks are? For me the answer is yes.
The Dash 9s are in the same predicament. The FAs are slightly better off. The SD40-2 project is better now but still short the numbers to keep them at $8-900 each.
The only way anyone is going to find out if these models sell is update the 3rd rail website and start taking reservations. It will be at least two years anyway before an announcement that this project is a go/no go for launch.
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:Well because the market pretty much has been flooded with them, especially the 3 rail side. Weaver did a couple of runs B4 selling the tooling to MTH. MTH did them in PS2 and PS3 with 3/2 trucks. Omi did them in brass, kts from lws, clw and others. ATLAS O did the similar SD40. Lionel has also made both the SD40-2 and the SD40.
With 3rd rail trying to gather up reservations for a loco thats been done at $750-800 ea, I'm sure there are people out there thinking they can buy used and detail one up cheaper than the new one. This cuts into firm reservations.
If that had any relevance then the GP7/9s would have been in the same situations.
@rdunniii posted:If that had any relevance then the GP7/9s would have been in the same situations.
Yah. I think it’s about who is willing to step up for a really well executed model.
I wonder if a live voting/reservation form with instant runoff (2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. choices) would help matters.
If people could see how close something was to meeting a go/no-go threshold, they might be inclined to throw their hat into the ring to buy. Additionally, a site that constantly updates with the numbers could tally the alternate choices to say, OK, XYZ version won't get made, but we have enough 1st choices and 2nd choices of road ABC to get it done.
@rdunniii posted:If that had any relevance then the GP7/9s would have been in the same situations.
Not quite because the GP7 offered especially for the PRR were "torpedo tube" geeps, never offered in 3 rail or 2 rail that I am aware of.
The GP9's well previous 3 rail models had too many mistakes or not detailed enough or too delicate/underperforming or had the "china drive" syndrome that many 2 railers are not happy about
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:...
The GP9's well previous 3 rail models had too many mistakes or not detailed enough or too delicate/underperforming or had the "china drive" syndrome that many 2 railers are not happy about
Those exact same comments could be made about every SD40-2 that has been made. Well, except Overland.
@GG1 4877 posted:For early Amtrak there are photos showing leased FP45s and F45s in consists with SDP40Fs. One of my favorite consists is a photo showing a Warbonnet FP45 leading an as delivered blue and yellow F45, followed by a SDP40F pulling the Southwest Limited. While it seems like a lot of HP, three units were common when ATSF was pulling the combined El Capitan / Super Chief.
Did some of the ATSF F45's have pass through steam lines?
@Dominic Mazoch posted:Did some of the ATSF F45's have pass through steam lines?
Yup. Some of the F45s were delivered with pass through steam lines.
I road Amtrak 3 a couple of times in the 1970's 3 SDP40F's east of Barstow, 4 west. But the train was 19 cars long. And in some spots did a mile on 36 seconds. 100 mph.
@Lou1985 posted:Yup. Some of the F45s were delivered with pass through steam lines.
Where did you get that info? Every picture i have seen a pictur3 with an f45 in a pssanger
consist, it is followed by a steam generator car, which were typlically converted baggage cars.
@Tom Taipalus posted:Where did you get that info? Every picture i have seen a pictur3 with an f45 in a pssanger
consist, it is followed by a steam generator car, which were typlically converted baggage cars.
@Lou1985 posted:
That checks out. Thanks for sharing.
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