671 Turbine - Postwar vs Williams

Well you have two entirely different animals under the hood. A well taken care of 671/681 is a fine machine. The modern Williams is too. Williams are not known to be good smokers, other than that you should enjoy either one.

Williams will have a smoother, more quiet motor and drivetrain.

It's smoke unit is really lame and you'll immediately want to replace it.

The postwar version will have a noisier drive  but the puffing smoke unit should be reliable.

A clean postwar unit would be my choice and that's coming from someone who has the williams unit.

I'm biased but I would definitely go for a nice PW version. 

I  have the early  671 which runs good but a little noisier than the others. The 681 & 682 run  nice a quiet, good pullers and smokers plus easy to service. Three screws to take out and the boiler comes off the chassis. Parts are available but they should run good unless abused. I would go for the 681 or 682. I had the second 671 but traded it away on a vey good deal.

I have a Williams as well as a 671.  Along with the already listed pros and cons, overall, the cosmetics on the Williams are far better.  Better yet, get an old RailKing version of the turbine (30-1149-1)...twice the size and tons more smoke, plus loads of other PS1 features are well worth the few extra bucks.  Now, if only my special order of smoke fluid from Colorado would arrive.

Bruce 

I’ve never owned a Williams powered unit of any type so I can’t compare it to a postwar 671.  But if you decide to go post-war I would definitely try to get a 681 or a 682 as others have posted.  They are better pullers thanks to magne-traction, especially if you have some unplanned inclines on your layout due to the basement floor as you describe it.  

On my layout I run all modern Lionel and MTH locomotives except for a post-war 681 which pulls an REA box car and 7 MPC Pennsy passenger cars.  It is very reliable and smokes well.  Plus it is very easy to work on.

The 681’s are readily available.  The earliest ones had the 12-wheel streamlined Pennsy tender which is nicer than the 8-wheel version but will cost a little more.

HTH,

Bill

Only you can answer the question below for yourself.  Now, IF it were me (and I've was pretty heavily involved in 3 rail some time ago, both PW and new stuff), I would ask myself this question:

"Do I want the original with all its whirring noises, puffing smoke, ozone smell, and air whistle... OR... do I want a not-so-cheap sanitary imitation of the real thing?"

Only you will know what you'll be the most happy with once you think through exactly what you want the model to be for you.

and actually you have a few to choose from unless you have to have the number 671 as there is also 681,682 and 2020 all are your 6-8-6 loco's and if you want the 12 wheel tender you can add that later to be honest it's really like laming said what do you want a good serviced postwar one is louder but is a great smooth running machine. 

FWIW, I have the williams version of the 671, never had a lionel PW engine so I can't speak to it.  The williams is pre-bachmann, smooth runner as my other williams are.  Nice sounding whistle, true it has a sleuthe type smoke unit that doesn't pump it out like MTH or Lione. Probably could be changed, but I like it, and the wife likes it since it doesn't fill up the room. Which is also why I like to run the MTH steam engines, to get her riled up ! 
Williams never seem to hold they're value, unless they are brass or an older limited edition.  Lionel obviously hold they value better.  Parts are probably easier to get for Lionel since they've made a ton of them.

my 2cts...

I had a Williams 671 and it didn't smoke that well. The 671 would pull a lot of freight cars I had, around 25. The other thing about the Williams S-2 steam engine is to make sure the track is very clean or the tender sounds off at will, even with a transformer without the whistle ability.

I did not have the post war version or have a friend who had one so I don't know how it compares to the post war model.

Lee Fritz

Never owed the Williams model so I can only speak about the PW versions. I have all versions except the 682 which is a 681 with the edge of the running board painted white and the extra oil linkage. The 1946 671 and 2020 have horizontal motors with a worm gear and direct drive to 2 sets of wheels, which I think runs smoother than the later models. The smoke unit is a bulb with a dimple that the pellet sits on an melts and the smoke is pushed up the stack with a flapper unit. They smoke well for how it works. The drive wheels have silver nickel rims.

Those 671 and 2020 made from 1947 until 1949 had a motor that was on a slant, was a little noisier and the drive wheels went through changes, first nickel rims in the first and fourth set then no rims at all. They had a regular heater element piston style smoke unit and the correct Pennsy style tender.

They all pull well without Magnetraction.

The 681 was just like the 1949 671 except with Magnetraction, and the 682 had the added features noted above.

As noted by others they are reliable engines that will give you years of fun if maintained and parts are available.

Hope this helps.

Mike

If it was me, I would get a Postwar Turbine.  There is nothing like an original w/ all it's history.  Yes, the Williams will run better & will pull more cars, but there's something about an original Lionel that you could only know from having one.   It all depends on what you want out of the engine & what you are looking for it to do.   Another option would be the MPC turbine from 84/85.  It's pretty much a 682 with a nicer paint scheme & a 2671W tender. It has SoS ( which really isnt correct for a turbine) & an electronic whistle. The lionel catalog # is 8404

I have a bunch of PRR S2's.  671rr is the oldest I have (1952).  I would suggest either a 681 or 682 from the '50s.  These have magnatraction and I read somewhere there was a gearing change in there somewhere that made them even better pullers.  1953 rings a bell for that but I don't remember where I read that.  I also have 2 of the 8404 Christopher spoke of above.  IMHO the magnatraction is not as good as the 682.  Both of mine also suffer from what I believe is a manufacturing issue: one of the axles on the front truck is slightly bent causing the wheels to wobble slightly and derail frequently.  The paint scheme is nicer but the sound is crappy by todays standards.  If you go for an 8404, check the leading and trailing trucks for bent axles. 

Tony

All of the Post War, MPC, Century Club I [CCI] and Williams o27 Turbine versions have the motors sticking into the cab.

IF you are looking at costs, many rebuilt postwar and the MPC versions are good. for cost, sound and performance, the CCI version is good.

I appreciate all of the replies and input.

I'm not looking to do anything major with it, just run it for years and enjoy it. Of course, I would want it to pull a fair share of cars.

Like I said, I'm really not familiar with Postwar products. My real concern with Postwar is the likelihood that I'll have to put a good deal of work into it - like rewiring it as, 50+ year old wiring, regardless of it being in a house or model train is 50+ year old wiring. Since I use all modern transformers, I'd like to put a more modern air whistle in the tender as my modern transformers don't supply the 5 volt boost like their Postwar counterparts.

I can deal with some minor paint chips but I want one as nice as I can find. No corrosion, etc. I know a few folks that may be able to steer me in a good direction as a Postwar newbie. I've always wanted one of these!

On another note, there is also a couple of options from MTH.  They offer a semi-scale version that is quite nice.  If I could only have 1, it would be a Lionel.  But the MTH one is a nice runner and nicely detailed.

The picture is my oldest S2 (671rr) and newest MTH (30-1149-1) PS1

I think too much is made of noise my 681 & 682 make a swishing noise running around the track. Can't too much quieter than that plus I have never seen a totally quiet running steam engine. Don't worry about a PW Lionel needing a lot of work, rewiring etc. 90% just need a light cleaning and a little oil after sitting for 40 years.

As briefly mentioned above, the Lionel Century Club 1 671 is worthy of serious consideration. USA-built and well made with a good three pole open frame motor. The sounds are still competitive and the whistle is quite good. Good smoker. TMCC-controlled, if you wish it at some point. The last in a long line of Lionel turbines. I have owned mine for 18 years and it has never missed a beat. The prices have come down considerably over the years to the point that it can be rationally considered with your other options. A hint ... the add-on die cast streamlined tender for the CC 1 671 makes it near perfection for a traditional S2.

Have fun in your search.

Bob

I was not aware of the Century Club turbine. I'll have to look at that further.

Regarding the MTH - I came close to pulling the trigger on the PS3 Imperial version from a few years ago but it was HUGE. Way bigger than I wanted (I really wanted the 0-27 version). For some reason, the 0-27 version looks "right"! Unless MTH reissues the Railking Rugged Rails 027 turbine, which they haven't done for at least a decade, MTH is off the table.

I did reach out to the owner of my now closed old LHS, a long time Postwar collector who gave me some very good advice on a turbine. It sounds like a 681 is what I want as it has Magnetraction and a better drivetrain. I'm also told that the horizontal motor options are worth avoiding. All good advice. Glad I knew this stuff.

I may still go with a Williams but something about the Postwar option is calling me. I'll keep an eye out for one to pop up but will really go on the hunt at York.

SJC posted:

I'll keep an eye out for one to pop up but will really go on the hunt at York.

 

They'll be plentiful at York.

Bill

After reading some of the comments about a Williams Turbine being a stronger puller than a post-war turbine, I decided to see what my post-war 681 could pull.  So here is a video of it pulling 22 freight cars which are not all light-weight cars as it’s a mixed consist of post-war Lionel, AMT, KMT, Franks Roundhouse, modern Lionel, K-Line and MTH Rugged Rails.  It handled that load very well.  Can a Williams’s turbine pull that many?

Bill

I'll take a post war any day 

If I put that consist on my layout the train would be half way around the loop. But I really like my PW turbines.

I'll also pile on the accolades for the Century Club turbine. I've got a postwar 2020 and 681, and the MPC 8404, and the Century Club one is the one that gets the most run time. The smoke is terrific, as are the sounds. It runs pretty good, though I don't think it will pull as much as any of the others I have. On my 8x12 layout, it pulls a plenty long enough train, but it will have a bit of slippage when it's pulling 5 2400 series postwar passenger cars. That's a pretty heavy train that doesn't roll too freely though.

J White

I have several 681, 682 and one century club 671 . All are great engines . You have received a lot of very good advice here , but I believe the best was given by Laming. FWIW  Jim

I have a PW turbine.  Runs well, except needs rewiring.  I can see why a child in the 1950's wanted one.  Lots of action without all the modern stuff.  Run mine with my MPC 9500 PRR passenger cars!

the only Williams engine I've owned was a WBB NW J. Beautiful engine, ran great, although slippery where none of my other engines were. Never cared for the Seuthe Smoke unit, it either was a bare wisp, or slobbered all over the boiler. I sold it off last year. For what I paid for it I could have had a nice MPC J. 

As far as the Turbine, I'd go with a Lionel Postwar version anyday. I have a 671, and a 2020, and they both run great.