Above Tabletop Wiring

Are you running three rail? or two rail?

It's an interesting idea to route a groove under or alongside the track. This would probably be a very organized way of wiring to be honest. I never thought of wiring on the tabletop.

@Bob Dunn posted:

I am building my 4th layout.  My first 3 were different types of supporting structure, from sawhorses to wide shelf "L" with angle brackets and lastly somewhat conventional bench work.  I am using heavy duty steel frame 2' x 4' shelving units as the main supports on this layout, over a roughly 12' x 18' format.  There are two, 16 inch wide x 9 feet long access aisles, with lift up access.  Wiring under the layout, as was done in my previous layouts, is going to be a bit harder on this one.  I am wondering if anyone here has ever done any wiring on top of their layouts.  If so, where did you run it (along side track, under track in a cutout groove, in a conduit, or other method), what problems did you encounter and what suggestions would you have.  Along my mainline, I was thinking of a space in the middle of the cork roadbed, with scale size electrical sheds on the sides for junction points.  Wiring to the yard and sidings may have to be a little more creative, as well as building and accessory wiring.  Please let me know your thoughts!  Thanks!

Well, I haven't tried it myself, but I've seen recommendations to bury wiring in a foam topper layer on the layout, slitting the foam, inserting the wires, and landscaping over the insertion. Any wiring installed in this manner would be hard to remove or modify at need, and disruptive of any landscaping done over it if any changes are attempted, so I think the strategy would only work well if you have thoroughly planned your layout up front and have no plan to make changes later. That's not how my past layouts have ever evolved, but YMMV . . .

The profile of Lionel FasTrak reveals a convenient underside "channel" for running track bus wiring -- hidden under the path of the FasTrak track sections of the layout.  With a rat-tail file, make a "mouse hole" at each end of all FasTrak sections so the bus wires can pass through each FasTrak joint.  Along the route, short feeder wires can be placed at intervals -- with jumpers from the bus wires to the FasTrak connectors provided in each section.  Thus all the wiring would be hidden ABOVE the platform and UNDER the Fastrak.

Tip: thoroughly test the FasTrak routes for continuity BEFORE you screw them down to the platform.

When/if you change the routing of FastTrak, the un-doing and re-doing of the track wiring would be a semi-hassle. Which is why most hobbyists probably wouldn't attempt this suggested method.

My 15x19-feet L-shaped layout has under-platform wiring for Lionel "O" tubular track.  I placed six feeders up through the hollow-core doors (as platforms resting on SKIL plastic sawhorses) to lighted lockons around the layout.  To "dress up" the wiring passing though the access holes, I glued a 3/8th-inch grommet at the top of each hole.  Now 83, my under-the-layout wiring adventures are over. I hire a young hobbyist helper to do the under-platform tasks!

Mike Mottler   LCCA 12394

@BillYo414 posted:

Are you running three rail? or two rail?

It's an interesting idea to route a groove under or alongside the track. This would probably be a very organized way of wiring to be honest. I never thought of wiring on the tabletop.

I am running flexible Gargraves on the main lines and tubular track in the yard.  On my other layouts, I used homosote over plywood, with cork roadbed.  Due the price of materials, I will be using OSB board and just the cork roadbed.  I may decide to put in a thin layer of foam board if I can obtain it at a reasonable cost.

@Steve Tyler posted:

Well, I haven't tried it myself, but I've seen recommendations to bury wiring in a foam topper layer on the layout, slitting the foam, inserting the wires, and landscaping over the insertion. Any wiring installed in this manner would be hard to remove or modify at need, and disruptive of any landscaping done over it if any changes are attempted, so I think the strategy would only work well if you have thoroughly planned your layout up front and have no plan to make changes later. That's not how my past layouts have ever evolved, but YMMV . . .

I am toying with the idea of using foam board doing as you say.  But I do see the drawbacks.  I am on my 5th revision of the track plan and I think that is just about finalized.  Thanks!

@Mike H Mottler posted:

The profile of Lionel FasTrak reveals a convenient underside "channel" for running track bus wiring -- hidden under the path of the FasTrak track sections of the layout.  With a rat-tail file, make a "mouse hole" at each end of all FasTrak sections so the bus wires can pass through each FasTrak joint.  Along the route, short feeder wires can be placed at intervals -- with jumpers from the bus wires to the FasTrak connectors provided in each section.  Thus all the wiring would be hidden ABOVE the platform and UNDER the Fastrak.

Tip: thoroughly test the FasTrak routes for continuity BEFORE you screw them down to the platform.

When/if you change the routing of FastTrak, the un-doing and re-doing of the track wiring would be a semi-hassle. Which is why most hobbyists probably wouldn't attempt this suggested method.

My 15x19-feet L-shaped layout has under-platform wiring for Lionel "O" tubular track.  I placed six feeders up through the hollow-core doors (as platforms resting on SKIL plastic sawhorses) to lighted lockons around the layout.  To "dress up" the wiring passing though the access holes, I glued a 3/8th-inch grommet at the top of each hole.  Now 83, my under-the-layout wiring adventures are over. I hire a young hobbyist helper to do the under-platform tasks!

Mike Mottler   LCCA 12394

I am using flexable Gargraves track, Gargraves turnouts on the main line and tubular track and turnouts in the yard.  I am approaching 70 and working under these shelving units is not fun!!  Unfortunately my 5 year old helper is not yet skilled in fastening and hooking up the wiring.  Thanks for your reply!

back when I had a livingroom floor layout, I put the wires inside the flexible wire covers seen in auto application.

If I ever had to do it again, I have had thoughts of creating a trough on the front edge of the layout where everything was accessible from a standing position right in front of you.  I thought I could cover the trough with a piece of removable scenery in sections of 3 or 4 feet.

Sounds easy... but probably isn't.

@Ron045 posted:

If I ever had to do it again, I have had thoughts of creating a trough on the front edge of the layout where everything was accessible from a standing position right in front of you.  I thought I could cover the trough with a piece of removable scenery in sections of 3 or 4 feet.

Sounds easy... but probably isn't.

Yeah, you're no doubt right, but if you use extruded polystyrene sheets (the pink/blue/green stuff) as the top layer of your layout, it would be relatively easy to create the type of channels you posit. I'd suggest it should be possible to use features with a well-defined edge, like a sidewalk or road curb, as the removable cap for the trough. This would make it easier to model a realistic transition from the 'cap'  into the surrounding landscape. Trying to blend, disguise and cover over a stark transition along the edges of such a removable cap would be difficult at best and even if successful, would typically leave fringes vulnerable to damage, so taking the time to design and incorporate features with naturally sharp transitions as a way to justify such obvious transitions would be worth the extra effort IMHO.

@Bob Dunn posted:

I am toying with the idea of using foam board doing as you say.  But I do see the drawbacks.  I am on my 5th revision of the track plan and I think that is just about finalized.  Thanks!

Well, the half inch panels I used a few years ago were less than half the cost of homosote or other alternatives available at the time, and the half inch OSB I used under it has also worked well, again at less cost than more traditional materials. Dunno what supply chain disruption has done with relative pricing since, but both have worked well for me, including subsequent revisions.

Most recently, I uncovered and carved out a hole in the foam board on the corner of the layout to make a pocket for the speaker for a motion-activated sound system. The foam 'divot' popped right out, so I dropped in and wired the speaker, covered the open hole with a scrap of aluminum screen (to provide some physical protection for the speaker), and closed over the hole. You can see the installation in an early test here, though you can't actually see the speaker *or* the hole -- that's kinda the point! Here's the site with added landscaping over the speaker site (I've since added several bears and crows to match the sounds, and geese are on the way!):

When I did my grandson's layout it had to be portable so I used 2" foam board and embedded some of the wiring in grooves I cut into the top and the bottom.  It stays put if you cut a slit in the foam that is smaller than the width of the wire.  When you force it into the slit it stays put and doesn't cause a bulge on top.  If you have twin cord (lampcord) just turn it sideways and force it into the slit.  There are some who suggest that you can "push" the wire into the foam.  That doesn't work with anything thicker than #22.  Cut the slit.

The problem is that most tape won't stick to the foam to cover over it (more of a problem on the bottom than the top).  Foam Joint Tape works OK though.

There is limited room under the Fastrack if you use that, but you can compensate by carving out recessed pockets in the foam that is under the Fastrack (or just about any other track for that matter).  Those compartments can house a decent amount of wire and Wago connectors (for example).  I would recommend Ken Hoganson's Book 21 Great Track Plans for Compact Layouts

It has lots of great tips.

John

Thanks for the information, Steve!  Your installation and scenery looks great!  Is that foam pipe insulation around the edge of the layout?  1/2" foam board is $27 for a 4' x 8' sheet here.  Homasote, which was always my "go to", is $42.78, also 4' x 8' sheet.  15/32" B/C plywood (real plywood, not OSB that they are now calling plywood), which is what is now passing as 1/2" is $42.95 a 4' x 8' sheet.  I've gotten the 7/16"  OSB for $17 a 4' x 8' sheet during the Pandemic.  It is now down to $11.50 a sheet here.  I know the price of model railroading has sky rocketed over the past 15 years.  I just don't want to have to sell my trains to build the new layout and then have nothing to run on it!

Bob  I thought of this idea a lot. In my 80s and under table stuff for wire connections is absolutely a pain. But I decided to rip all wires completely out from my lay out . I do still have a few hook ups to switch  machines. This all started after I went to deadrail / Battery Power.  Best thing I have done since I started this hobby. After I ripped 90% of the wires out I thought how will I be able to connect lighting to my existing scenery. Then along came  Dwarvin fiber optic lighting systems on Trainz.com  . I looked into it, purchased a starter kit and presto. I love the easy hook up no wires . The hardest part of setting it up was attaching the fiber optic box under the table . Not a big deal for a mobile person but these bones do not want to twist like they use to. The lighting is better than wiring LED'S . The instalation is so easy. I am in the process of purchasing Dwarvin fiber optic lighting  for the whole layout.

Thanks for the information!  I have been leaning away from the foam board because of the costs.  How did you attach the track to 2" foam board?

Thanks, Bill!  I will have to look into fiber optics!

@Steve Tyler posted:

Well, the half inch panels I used a few years ago were less than half the cost of homosote or other alternatives available at the time, and the half inch OSB I used under it has also worked well, again at less cost than more traditional materials. Dunno what supply chain disruption has done with relative pricing since, but both have worked well for me, including subsequent revisions.

Most recently, I uncovered and carved out a hole in the foam board on the corner of the layout to make a pocket for the speaker for a motion-activated sound system. The foam 'divot' popped right out, so I dropped in and wired the speaker, covered the open hole with a scrap of aluminum screen (to provide some physical protection for the speaker), and closed over the hole. You can see the installation in an early test here, though you can't actually see the speaker *or* the hole -- that's kinda the point! Here's the site with added landscaping over the speaker site (I've since added several bears and crows to match the sounds, and geese are on the way!):

Steve, your picture has my mind going again!  If that is foam pipe insulation on the edge of your layout, why couldn't I run wiring inside of that?  At least for the mainline, which will travel around outside of the layout.  How did you attach it?  It looks like this may be experimentation day on the Glens Falls & Prospect Railroad's new layout!!

Guys, even though I have been reading the Forum on here for years, this is my first time using it.  I apologize if I am using the "Reply" features incorrectly.  Still finding my way around in here!

@Bob Dunn posted:

Steve, your picture has my mind going again!  If that is foam pipe insulation on the edge of your layout, why couldn't I run wiring inside of that?  At least for the mainline, which will travel around outside of the layout.  How did you attach it?  It looks like this may be experimentation day on the Glens Falls & Prospect Railroad's new layout!!

Yes, it's just the relatively inexpensive foam pipe insulation available at most hardware stores. I first used it on the raw edge of the half-inch OSB base of my originally around-the-Christmas-tree layout when I elevated it on sawhorses, to protect it from young visitors (and vice versa!). To install it, I just ran my finger down the pre-split opening, widening the split enough to fit over the edge of the OSB, and the natural springiness held it on, even around the relatively sharp corners (note: if the end of the foam piece is too close to the corner, a staple or two will secure it further if needed).

When I built my new layout, I used half-inch foam board on top of half-inch OSB, so the foam cover had to be stretched a bit further, but it still works well. To your point, I'm not sure it would hold well enough to reliably secure a bundle of loose wires, but if you pre-secure the wires to the edge somehow, I think the foam pipe insulation sections would be able to cover at least a small bundle. The closest I've come to your idea was to pass a transformer cord from the top of the layout to the underside under the foam edge, and that has worked reasonably well so far.

@Bob Dunn posted:

Thanks for the information!  I have been leaning away from the foam board because of the costs.  How did you attach the track to 2" foam board?

With Easy Anchor Wall Anchors

1.  Make a hole with a screwdriver

2.  Fill hole with Gorilla Glue (which expands when it dries)

3.  Insert metal wall anchor and allow to dry completely

4.  Fasten track to anchor with either provided #6 round head screws or buy #6 x 1" flat head for a neater look (on Fastrack).  The provided round head screws are 1 1/4" which might be a bit too long.

Credit:  Ken Hoganson's book

@Craftech posted:

With Easy Anchor Wall Anchors

1.  Make a hole with a screwdriver

2.  Fill hole with Gorilla Glue (which expands when it dries)

3.  Insert metal wall anchor and allow to dry completely

4.  Fasten track to anchor with either provided #6 round head screws or buy flat head for a neater look (on Fastrack)

Credit:  Ken Hoganson's book

Well, yes, that will certainly keep the track in place through the Apocalypse, but many just use some sort of adhesive to stick the track down, either directly over the foam or with cork or foam roadbed between track and foam. In my case (O-27 tubular O scale track), I just used short nails into the foam to hold the track in place, then ballasted to glue everything securely in position.

@Steve Tyler posted:

Well, yes, that will certainly keep the track in place through the Apocalypse, but many just use some sort of adhesive to stick the track down, either directly over the foam or with cork or foam roadbed between track and foam. In my case (O-27 tubular O scale track), I just used short nails into the foam to hold the track in place, then ballasted to glue everything securely in position.

Steve,

How do you you do repairs or maintenance on the switches that way?

John

@Bob Dunn posted:

Thanks for the information, Steve!  Your installation and scenery looks great!  Is that foam pipe insulation around the edge of the layout?  1/2" foam board is $27 for a 4' x 8' sheet here.  Homasote, which was always my "go to", is $42.78, also 4' x 8' sheet.  15/32" B/C plywood (real plywood, not OSB that they are now calling plywood), which is what is now passing as 1/2" is $42.95 a 4' x 8' sheet.  I've gotten the 7/16"  OSB for $17 a 4' x 8' sheet during the Pandemic.  It is now down to $11.50 a sheet here.  I know the price of model railroading has sky rocketed over the past 15 years.  I just don't want to have to sell my trains to build the new layout and then have nothing to run on it!

Thanks, Bob! Yeah, those are about the same relative prices I saw a few years ago, though the OSB seems even cheaper now! OSB gets a lot of shade by the plywood purists in our hobby, and for sure it has different characteristics and strengths than old-style plywood, but if you support it properly and protect it from moisture by painting it, my experience is that it will work just as well as plywood, especially if you're going to entirely cover it anyway!

@Craftech posted:

How do you you do repairs or maintenance on the switches that way?

Well, I'm currently using postwar Lionel O-27 switches, which have all the connections and operating gear above the layout surface, so I just used the same short nails to hold them in place, and ballast just up to the edges:

[Sorry, the pic is a poor resolution crop from a larger view, and was before I had completed ballasting, but at least it illustrates the switch and installation.]

@Bob Dunn posted:

Thanks, Bill!  I will have to look into fiber optics!

The nice thing about this system it is like plug and play. If you want to make changes in scenery all you have to do is just pull cable from the fiber box and make changes .  No hooking wire to wire ,shrink tube, cutting and splicing,  hope you do take time and look at it. Of course you still need to deal with wiring track .I don't being deadrail. 

@Steve Tyler posted:

Yes, it's just the relatively inexpensive foam pipe insulation available at most hardware stores. I first used it on the raw edge of the half-inch OSB base of my originally around-the-Christmas-tree layout when I elevated it on sawhorses, to protect it from young visitors (and vice versa!). To install it, I just ran my finger down the pre-split opening, widening the split enough to fit over the edge of the OSB, and the natural springiness held it on, even around the relatively sharp corners (note: if the end of the foam piece is too close to the corner, a staple or two will secure it further if needed).

When I built my new layout, I used half-inch foam board on top of half-inch OSB, so the foam cover had to be stretched a bit further, but it still works well. To your point, I'm not sure it would hold well enough to reliably secure a bundle of loose wires, but if you pre-secure the wires to the edge somehow, I think the foam pipe insulation sections would be able to cover at least a small bundle. The closest I've come to your idea was to pass a transformer cord from the top of the layout to the underside under the foam edge, and that has worked reasonably well so far.

So I am going to do some experimenting with bundling the wires inside the pipe insulation.  There are wire ties with tabs to attach the ties to a surface with screws.  If I use these at a given distance along the wires, with regular wire ties in between, it should make a consistent wire bundle that the pipe insulation can cover.    The OSB edges will not extend beyond the benchwork and are being attached to 2" x 3" horizontal frames.  I have planned to a attach 1" x 4" furring strips horizontally to the 2" x 3" 's around the perimeter of the layout.  This would allow me to attach wire bundles near or on the top of the furring strip and cover with the foam pipe insulation.  I'll let you know how this works and looks.  Thanks again!

@Bob Dunn posted:

So I am going to do some experimenting with bundling the wires inside the pipe insulation.  There are wire ties with tabs to attach the ties to a surface with screws.  If I use these at a given distance along the wires, with regular wire ties in between, it should make a consistent wire bundle that the pipe insulation can cover.    The OSB edges will not extend beyond the benchwork and are being attached to 2" x 3" horizontal frames.  I have planned to a attach 1" x 4" furring strips horizontally to the 2" x 3" 's around the perimeter of the layout.  This would allow me to attach wire bundles near or on the top of the furring strip and cover with the foam pipe insulation.  I'll let you know how this works and looks.  Thanks again!

Oh, no problem, and FWIW I'd say your plan looks good to me. You're having to go to a lot of effort to create an edge, though, and you could probably rip the 1 by 4's lengthwise and use the resulting 1 by 2's around the edge instead -- the foam pipe insulation will likely cover more of their width and leave less of a transition to conceal (less important if you plan to top the OSB and 1 by 4's with foam panels), while still allowing plenty of room to secure the wire bundle and pop on the covering foam edging. Good luck in any event!

https://https://www.cabletiesandmore.com/open-slot-wire-ductwww.cabletiesandmore.com/open-slot-wire-duct

You could mount this type of product along the underside of the front edge of the table.

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

https://https://www.cabletiesandmore.com/open-slot-wire-ductwww.cabletiesandmore.com/open-slot-wire-duct

You could mount this type of product along the underside of the front edge of the table.

Thank you, Arthur!  This does look like a product I could incorporate into the wiring scheme.  I appreciate the information!