Adding Second TIU Help!!

Matt,

Since all of your engines were added to one TIU (now TIU #2), the new TIU (now TIU #1) cannot "see" them. You need to put both TIUs into Super TIU mode.

From page 113 of The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition:

Turning on Super TIU Mode

In order to operate properly, Super TIU mode must be turned on for each TIU on the layout, from each DCS Remote used with the layout. This is accomplished as follows for each DCS Remote that is used to operate the layout:

• Press the Menu key on the DCS Remote to enter the DCS menus

• Use the thumbwheel to scroll to TIU SETUP and press the thumbwheel to select it

• Use the thumbwheel to scroll to SUPER TIU and press the thumbwheel to select it

• A list of all of the TIUs in the DCS Remote is displayed. Use the thumbwheel to scroll to the first TIU to change to Super TIU mode and press the thumbwheel to select it

• Press soft key S1 (SPR) to place the TIU into Super TIU mode. A message "Super TIU Mode" will be displayed

• Repeat the above process for each TIU listed

• Press the Menu key to exit the screen

• Repeat the above process for all other DCS Remotes

To change back to normal TIU mode of operation, repeat the above process for all TIUs and DCS Remotes, however, press soft key S2, NRM, to place each TIU and DCS Remote back into normal TIU mode.

This and a whole lot more is all in "The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", now available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book from MTH's web store site! Click on the link below to go to MTH's web page for the book!

Matt,

My question is are there any issues with having 2 different model TIUs especially if having both set as super TIUs?

None whatsoever.

does having the bulbs on the older model TIU affect the signal from the L TIU that does not have a bulb at output end

No, it does not.

Should I add the bulb at the output end of the new TIU even though it's version L?

Matt,

Just curious as to why you just didn't add the new TIU as #2 when you first added it to the remote. Are you sure you have both TIU in Super Mode? If you take the new TIU out of the layout will the engines work on the 4 main lines as before?

Matthew,

Does anyone know (moving it first off position 1) if I can just keep my original TIU unplugged while I am adding my second TIU so that way I can just get my new TIU added and test it alone on my layout (yard) to make sure the TIU has no issues right out of the box since it is new??

Do this:

• If the original TIU is now once again number 1 ()blinks once at power-on), turn off the new TIU and change number 1 to number 2: Menu/System/TIU Setup/Edit TIU select number 1 and change it to number 2
• Add number 1 to DCS: Menu/System/TIU Setup/Add TIU and select number 1 to add
• Turn on the new TIU. Assuming that it blinks once, you should be done.

Thanks Barry!!

Matthew,

I'm glad you were able to get things sorted out.

There's an issue where some, but not all, TMCC or Legacy engines will mess up the DCS signal in any PS2/PS33 engine with which they are in close proximity. hsmay be the isue that's causing you problems.

From The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition page 152:

Some, but not all, TMCC engines will degrade the DCS signal of any PS2 engine with which they are in close proximity. This effect varies both by individual TMCC engine and by the distance between the TMCC and PS2 engines. In many cases, an RF choke inserted in the Hot wire between the pickup rollers and the TMCC engine's circuit board will correct this problem.

Some lighted cabooses, most notably those manufactured by Atlas O, may degrade the DCS signal, as may some engines or passenger cars with constant voltage (CV) lighting boards. Again, an RF choke inserted in the Hot wire between the pickup rollers and the circuit board in these cars will generally correct this problem. Although a number of different RF chokes may be effective in reducing interference from CV boards, one that has an electrical value of 22uh (micro henries) is known to work well.

This and a whole lot more is all in "The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", now available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book from MTH's web store site! Click on the link below to go to MTH's web page for the book!

Barry, I am going to order that book since you were a big help to me...I actually still have a few hairs left..lol.

I was just thinking. I have a 6 track yard that I insulated each track from each of the 6 #4 Ross switches. All 6 of the yard tracks have a single #14 wire feeders that all go back to an MTH 12 port terminal block. Instead of putting the RF chokes on all of my TMCC/Legacy engines couldn't I just put the RF chokes on each of the feeders of my 6 track yard?? Does it have to be installed only on the engines? If that would work that would be great because I don't really have issues on my main lines because I always keep DCS and TMCC engines on there own loops. I have 4 main lines. It's just my yard where I want to store both Lionel and MTH engines. If I even have to I can dedicate 3 tracks in my yard for just DCS and 3 tracks for TMCC engines. If the choke Idea works that would be a very easy fix for me because I can just keep tmcc and dcs on there own lines in my yard.

Thanks!!

Feel free to check out my layout video if you have not already seen it off other posts by me. The video was shot before my yard was in place. I will have to do a new video once I am further along down the road as well as a train cam view

http://youtu.be/WkR77FqpryA

Well, the book is handy to have even if Barry didn't help you.

Matthew,

Instead of putting the RF chokes on all of my TMCC/Legacy engines couldn't I just put the RF chokes on each of the feeders of my 6 track yard?? Does it have to be installed only on the engines?

I tend to think that would  kill the DCS signal, however, feel free to try it. Post your results.

http://www.radioshack.com/prod...sp?productId=2103978

only ones I can find off of the Shacks website...would these do the trick?

Matt,

only ones I can find off of the Shacks website...would these do the trick?

Those are 100uh. You need 22uh that can handle the total amperage draw of all of the engines on that siding.

The point is to block the 3.27mhz signal, 100uh would do that fine, but it's overkill.  I also suspect those are not capable of handling the current requirements.

I'd consider winding a choke, a 22uh choke wouldn't be that many turns.

Here's a page on winding your own inductors.  Homebrew Your Own Inductors!

Toward the bottom are the formulas for air core inductors, the easiest ones to fabricate.

Guys, here's an update. I am making progress but man what a pain in the butt this is trying to get DCS and Legacy to work on the same layout. I went to Radio Shack and picked up the only RF Choke they had which was 100 microhenries 2 amps max rated at 1khz. I picked up 2 of them. I found out something on my layout that I never tested before but when I had one of my MTH engines in my yard with not a single other engine (DCS or TMCC/Legacy) was anywhere on the layout because I removed all engines and cabooses to help narrow down my problems. So I only had one MTH PS2 engine in my yard for testing. What I found was when I put that DCS engine in the track signal test mode I was only getting a 4 so I went around and pulled everything out and I found that as soon as I removed the Legacy wire from it's base my signal jumped to 10. Now just for kicks I hooked up one of the chokes between the Legacy base and wire and that kept my signal at 10. Was I supposed to have a RF choke on the legacy base in the first place??

Leaving the choke between the base I then isolated one of my yard tracks with a choke and moved the Legacy Big Boy onto that line. I put an MTH PS3 engine onto the next yard track and was able to get a signal of around 5 but at least I was able to have both DCS and TMCC in the same yard with out major issues. I am going to have to do some more testing and I am also going to order a ton of those correct 22uh chokes off of the internet somewhere. I then tried to run a DCS engine on the track with the with the choke but it killed the signal. I would be more then happy for now if I can just have dedicated yard tracks such as like 3 for my MTH and 3 for my Lionel engines. I am wondering if the soon to come DCS system will not have anymore issues with Lionel engines. 

Please let me know you're thoughts with my findings today.

Thanks!

Hope everyone is having a nice weekend.

Matthew,

 the soon to come DCS system

"Soon to come" is at least 12 months away. Further, I expect that not much has been accomplished thus far except, perhaps, some basic design work.

What I found was when I set that DCS engine in track signal test mode I was only getting a 4 so I went around and pulled everything out and I found that as soon as I removed the Legacy wire from it's base my signal jumped to 10

You have a problem with your TMCC Command Base and using a choke isn't likely to fix it.

You might try removing the choke from the Command Base's wire to the track and plugging the Command Base's wall wart directly into an AC wall outlet that has a good earth ground. Also ensure that the TMCC signal is not passing through the TIU's channel.

I can connect and disconnect my Legacy base while reading track signal with the DCS system and I see no change, and I wouldn't expect to.

You have a problem with your TMCC Command Base and using a choke isn't likely to fix it.

You might try removing the choke from the Command Base's wire to the track and plugging the Command Base's wall wart directly into an AC wall outlet that has a good earth ground. Also ensure that the TMCC signal is not passing through the TIU's channel.

Barry, what's a wall wart for starters? As for AC outlet it's plugged into a new 20amp wire that's a dedicated run to the box just for my trains. My house is also only 5 years old. I could try connecting the base to another outlet in the house and see what happens. Also please note that the command wire is after the TIU. I have it set up so that my 4 outputs (#12 wire) from my 2 Z4000s go through my TIU then each TIU output go to 4 separate MTH 12 port terminal blocks. I have my Legacy base wire feeding to each of the MTH terminal blocks and then out the terminal blocks to the tracks (4 main lines) 

And yes by having the choke connected directly to the base to the command wire it does increase the signal on DCS back to 10 and if I remove the choke it shoots instantly back down to about a 4

son of a gun! I just moved my legacy base power adapter to another outlet on the same wall outlet line and my signal was at 10 this time with out the choke...Barry you are a life saver Thanks!

I plugged the base power adapter cable to a small 2 prong adapter that does not have a ground pin and plugged it directly into the wall without any signal issues. So connecting the base power adapter with out it's ground pin does the trick..I must have a bad ground or something in my house that's interfering. Do I need the legacy ground pin connected?

The wall wart is the command bases's power supply.

The command base creaming the DCS signal is a known issue that I've never experienced but have seen it posted on the forum before.

You previously stated:

"I put an MTH PS3 engine onto the next yard track and was able to get a signal of around 5"

and then you stated:

"yes by having the choke connected directly to the base to the command wire it does increase the signal on DCS back to 10 and if I remove the choke it shoots instantly back down to about a 4"

Which is it?

ok that didn't work...it fixed my DCS issue but by not connecting the ground 3 prong pin to wall outlet ground the command base does not respond to my legacy engines. I have to figure out why I have a ground issue so I can connect all 3 prongs on command base power adapter.

You can't connect the power ground to the Legacy track terminal, you're shorting out the Legacy TMCC signal!

no no you have me wrong...I did not connect the AC power adapters ground to track. I was saying that when I remove the ground pin from AC adapter the legacy system does not address commands to engine but it does fix my DCS problem. I am not sure what to do now. I also noticed that I get a little better DCS signal if I remove the 180 brick and connect my second TIU to my other Z4000k go figure....I am going crazy here ..lol

Same comment, the ground pin is a VITAL component of the signal propagation for the TMCC/Legacy signal!

I found something else...not sure if this is normal but on my main loops using a test light I connected one wire from test light to center rail and other to CENTER rail on my other loop and I got a light from the bulb...please note each loop was connected to 1 Z4000 on there own channels and at the time of testing I just moved the throttle up to 18volts on one of the channels. My question is should the center rail act as a ground (light the test light) when the throttle is set at off position on that loop?? I thought this was strange but maybe it is normal. I also got a light from the bulb when touching the outer rails from other loop. so basically with one wire from bulb was connected to just center rail on one loop and other end of bulb on each of the 3 tracks from other loop and the bulb was on when i touched each of the 3 rails separately.  Please let me know if this is normal.

Note the bulb was bright when touching each of the 3 rails but when I unscrewed the DCS signal bulb under the transformer and then retested each of the 3 rails the center rail was very dim this time. I am sure this is normal but just wanted to be sure

Thanks!