Advantages of dcs or DCS vs legacy for switches and accessories

Stackm746 posted:

Could anyone provide pluses and minuses of using ACUs vs legacy for switch and accessories control.  I assume one should not try to use both. 

Thanks

Greg Stack

Hi Greg,

I think you might be referring to the MTH AIU versus a Lionel Legacy ASC2? They are about the same price, but the AIU can control 10 switches or accessories and the ASC2 can control 4. It will depend on which control system you prefer. Both have remotes with screens and both systems can be connected to WiFi so that you can use an iPhone app. The MTH app can run on Android, but I don't think the Lionel app can. Lionel seems to have a more complete system if you want to build an automated layout and use their LCS app with switch control.

Which track system are you planning to use? There are Lionel Fastrack switches and Z-stuff DZ switch machines that have TMCC built in. If you use those, you will not be able to control them through the DCS remote. In that case, it would be better to use Legacy for all of your switch and accessory control. 

I'm interested to hear thoughts from others.

George

I think the best approach might depend on the size and complexity of the layout. If it has 4 or less blocks and 10 or less turnouts it would be easy to remember all the ID numbers and operate the layout with a hand held. In that case either Legacy or DCS should be fine. Each system seems to have some compelling features.

My layout currently has 700' of track, 8 Power Districts subdivided into 25 blocks, 45 turnouts, 25 uncouplers, 4 action car tracks, 3 sensor tracks and a large number of illuminated buildings. All this is controlled by touch from an iPad with 5 mimic screens operating 34 LCS devices. I could not imagine trying to operate this layout with a handheld from memory. Legacy/LCS was in my opinion the only viable system. As far as I know there is not a DCS equivalent to the LCS APP and system. At the time I made this decision there were NO DCS S gauge engines. Now, 4 years later there is a total of ONE, the F3, with no others on the horizon. Were it an O gauge layout with a lot of DCS engines the decision may have been less clear.

Actually, an MTH AIU can control 10 switches AND 10 accessories, not or.  20 devices per AIU.

Gary

Since when can you not use the AIU to control fast track or DZ zwitch machines? I am pretty sure need to check your statement and correct it.

Shawn_Chronister posted:

Since when can you not use the AIU to control fast track or DZ zwitch machines? I am pretty sure need to check your statement and correct it.

 

Hi Shawn,

Certainly, you can 2 wire them and control them with the AIU. You cannot address the command ready switches directly from DCS through integration with the command base. The command ready switches do not require an ASC in the Legacy / TMCC world. They have TMCC built in. The point is less wiring and native integration with Legacy.

George

MrMoe50 posted:

Actually, an MTH AIU can control 10 switches AND 10 accessories, not or.  20 devices per AIU.

Gary

Wow! That's a lot. I have one. I have it packed and forgot it had two sides. They can also be chained together. The manual says you can chain up to 5 of them together.

George

I control all 30 of my switches with Tortice switch machines using DCS.  I use the remote not the app!   I have track diagrams mounted high on the walls of my basement with all the switch numbers. Just look up, push the switch number and your all set. Cant do that with the app because there is no keyboard showing. You can work all kinds of stuff because all it is.  Is a bank of on/off switches.  As Rich said in his DCS tutorial even turn on the coffee pot.   

George S posted:

Shawn_Chronister posted:

Since when can you not use the AIU to control fast track or DZ zwitch machines? I am pretty sure need to check your statement and correct it.

 

Hi Shawn,

Certainly, you can 2 wire them and control them with the AIU. You cannot address the command ready switches directly from DCS through integration with the command base. The command ready switches do not require an ASC in the Legacy / TMCC world. They have TMCC built in. The point is less wiring and native integration with Legacy.

George

OK George but your earlier statement said you could could not control them with the DCS remote but you can because the AIU is controlled from the remote. I just want the gentleman to not get misinformation.

Thanks for the input so far.  I am using a mixture of Z 2100 and 2500 switch machines.   Tmcc will work with the 2500.   Is best practice to use either dcs aiu or legacy dcs for switches but not both?   Last layout I used Lionel SC2s with mixed results.   Appreciate any thoughts and feedback

Greg in Wisconsin 

Greg,

Everyone has they're opinion. I prefer the DCS and AIU. I find it to be more versatile and I believe you get more bang for the buck with 10 switches and 10 accessories that along with being able to add 5 per TIU give you a whole lot of control. I am not knocking the Lionel stuff. You should do you your homework and do what's best for you. I have both systems but use DCS to control my extras.

Shawn_Chronister posted:

Greg,

Everyone has they're opinion. I prefer the DCS and AIU. I find it to be more versatile and I believe you get more bang for the buck with 10 switches and 10 accessories that along with being able to add 5 per TIU give you a whole lot of control. I am not knocking the Lionel stuff. You should do you your homework and do what's best for you. I have both systems but use DCS to control my extras.

Totally agree with Shawn above.

Gary

AmFlyer posted:

I think the best approach might depend on the size and complexity of the layout. If it has 4 or less blocks and 10 or less turnouts it would be easy to remember all the ID numbers and operate the layout with a hand held. In that case either Legacy or DCS should be fine. Each system seems to have some compelling features.

My layout currently has 700' of track, 8 Power Districts subdivided into 25 blocks, 45 turnouts, 25 uncouplers, 4 action car tracks, 3 sensor tracks and a large number of illuminated buildings. All this is controlled by touch from an iPad with 5 mimic screens operating 34 LCS devices. I could not imagine trying to operate this layout with a handheld from memory. Legacy/LCS was in my opinion the only viable system. As far as I know there is not a DCS equivalent to the LCS APP and system. At the time I made this decision there were NO DCS S gauge engines. Now, 4 years later there is a total of ONE, the F3, with no others on the horizon. Were it an O gauge layout with a lot of DCS engines the decision may have been less clear.

That sounds like quite a set up! Your mimic screens sound interesting. How did you set them up?

Thanks!

-Ken

Stackm746 posted:

Thanks for the input so far.  I am using a mixture of Z 2100 and 2500 switch machines.   Tmcc will work with the 2500.   Is best practice to use either dcs aiu or legacy dcs for switches but not both?   Last layout I used Lionel SC2s with mixed results.   Appreciate any thoughts and feedback

Greg in Wisconsin 

What problems did you have with the SC2s? The ASC2s are the new Legacy LCS units. I don't have experience with them, but the idea of being able to automate the layout and have the iPad dashboard is intriguing. 

I bought the AIU, but really only used it for a couple of accessories. Trying to use a remote for switching was too slow for my dexterity.   I used regular switch controllers and anti-derailing features. I didn't have a lot of routes that required throwing switches. I would set up switch controllers close to a yard. I would run the trains with the remote and throw the switches with a controller. I may even use manual switches in the yards on the new layout. I will need remote switches for hard to reach locations.

George

Stackm746 posted:

... I am using a mixture of Z 2100 and 2500 switch machines.   Tmcc will work with the 2500.   Is best practice to use either dcs aiu or legacy dcs for switches but not both?   Last layout I used Lionel SC2s with mixed results.    

Could you elaborate on what you mean by mixed results.

In principle the AIU does the same thing as the ASC2 to control the non-TMCC switches.  The point being perhaps there is something about the switches themselves that need to be aligned, adjusted, increased voltage, whatever.  

Separately, George S makes insightful comments about the user-interface side of things.  Not clear on whether you're presently using the proprietary remotes, smartphone apps, or both.  But I'd think using one device to control some switches/accessories, but another device to control other switches/accessories gets tedious.

Just FYI, you can name the switches (and routes) on the dcs remote  so you don't need to "go by memory".  

pennsy484 posted:

Just FYI, you can name the switches (and routes) on the dcs remote  so you don't need to "go by memory".  

That's true, but switch naming is much less intuitive than engine naming. I could never think of good names for each switch. It really helps to have a diagram and reference to look at. 

Routes are something we didn't touch on yet. With DCS, you can program multiple switches and positions into a route and name the route. That allows you to set several switches at the same time. 

LCS has functionality like this too. I'm less familiar with how that works.

George

If you happen to already have an iPad, here is the big advantage of using Lionel LCS to control your turnouts: a control panel with one or more track diagrams with a touch screen interface to control turnouts. You get a visual indication of turnout position. You can add visual block control and accessory control as well. I am using TMCC ASCs which are half the cost of ASC2s. I use Tortoise switch motors and LED dwarf signals trackside, although the ASCs will work with any switch machines. For crossovers, one ASC relay controls both turnouts.

I am not using the LCS STM2 (switch throw monitor). Instead, at the beginning of an operating session I use my Legacy remote to activate a track route which is set up to throw all turnouts to their normalized position, and I make sure the turnouts on the screen are all green. I have not had any sync problems.

The control panel features were the deciding factors for me.

Bob

To further add to Bob’s post I have attached a screen shot from my LCS. This is one of 5 screens, it is mainline 3 which includes the 6 track passenger station. This screen has turnouts, uncouplers (the black rectangles on the sidings), block on/off controls (the toggles at the end of the sidings), layout lights, and route setup (the two Fire switches on the right.)

I do use the STM-2 monitors to assure the screen always displays the actual turnout positions. The layout has no manual controls, everything is operated with the LCS and iPad. I usually use Cab2’s to run trains but also have 2 iPhones that can be used.

Ken S, I would like to try to answer your question without hijacking the thread. I hope this helps. I am posting a screen shot of the Mainline 1 page. Comparing this with Mainline 3, posted above, you can see the interconnections. More importantly all the interconnecting turnouts are shown on each screen that has a track connected to them. I think this duplication of more turnouts that just those required to complete a track plan is key to ease of operability.

Tom

 I was hoping that someone would show more of the features of the iPad LCS app. I'm just getting started.  You are making great use of all the features.  I did not know about the fire button to set routes. I'll be adding that. 

I think the MTH app is great, but they really need to add this kind of control panel.

Bob

I am making use of almost all of the available LCS features. A key feature I use a lot is not obvious on the track plan. On Mainline 1 just to the left of T38 there are two small dots, red and green. Same appears just to the right of T10 on Mainline 3. These are two of the three Sensor tracks on the layout that communicate with engines and other equipped cars.

The Fire feature for setting preselected routes is a nice feature. I have a total of seven. A watchout is to be sure none of the turnouts in that route are fouled before pressing the button! I have fouling detectors and block occupancy detectors on all hidden turnouts and blocks. These are not shown on the LCS screen since there is no actuation required by an operator.

What is the number of switches that can b operated from a single LCS component?    I have been told that the 10-20 from the AIU is a more economical option.  Any thoughts on the wiring differences between AIU and LCS?

thx

Greg in Wisconsin 

The ASC2 will operate 4 turnouts or 8 on/off accessories. One BPC2 will control 8 blocks. The LCS page on the Lionel website describes what each LCS component does.

I do not have a DCS system so someone else can comment on how it works and how much it costs. The Lionel LCS is very easy to hook up. Building the Layout control mimic on the iPad is straightforward. Complexity and number of components determines how long it takes.

The TMCC ASC ($35-$45) and the LCS ASC2 ($90-$100) each can control 4 turnouts or 8 accessories. You also need one SER2 module ($45) only if you are using TMCC ASCs.

The MTH AIU ($110-$120) handles 10 turnouts and 10 accessories.  So the AIU is a little more cost effective than using ASCs and a lot more cost effective than ASC2s.

Bob

The wiring for the AIU is simple (one DB9 Cable to the TIU I believe). LCS devices such as the ASC2 are daisy chained together with DBI cables which can get costly if you have a lot of devices.  TMCC ASCs have more complicated wiring with each device daisy chained with 2 power wires and 2 Data wires.

The connections to the turnouts are the same except fasttrack command switches don't require any wiring.

Bob

The LCS CSM2 can control 7 DZ-2500 switch machines with a single wire to each.

George

My experience with the sc2 was sometimes the switch threw the first time and sometimes the third time.   I assume the sc2 has no place in a legacy LCS system or is there some way to incorporate them?

So the in progress layout is planned to have 3 TIUs and 3 mainlines consisting of two power districts on each main and then 6 power districts for 3 yards and three short loops.   There r about 40 switches including the 4 yards.   So if I go with dcs AIUs r they able to be wired and control the dz2500s?

Greg in Wisconsin 

Greg Yes the instructions dhow exactly how to do it.

http://www.z-stuff.net/instruc...achine%202-21-05.pdf