AF wide gauge help needed

My advice - post the AF model number (which 4-4-2? There are several). And give Harry Hennings a call at the store, he may have what you need. 

Jim

Hi Jim,

my problem is I don't know which version I have. It isn't the piper version, if isn't the version with the triangular valve gear either. On the side of the boiler there is a long small right angle piece of trim which doesn't seem to do much. It doesn't have a ringing bell. I suspect it may be an early engine.

Did AF make these engines with two different length con-rods?

I did email Henning's about six weeks ago and sent an email to Bill. I then sent another email a few days later to see if they received my email and Bill said he passed it on to his dad who does the spares. I didn't get a reply and I have sent two more emails to Billl since then, the last one just a few days ago and still no reply, so I am not sure what is happening.

I found that you have to get the right Henning.  There are two Harry's.  I beleive the older is about my age (played with Lionel trains in late 40's.  Every time I called and asked for him, he was coming in some other time.   Then there is his son, also Harry.  He's the one to talk to,  Look up Hennings Trains in the O Gauge Forum Sponsor Index.  I think this is his email -

Harry - harryhenning@comcast.net

ask him when is a good time to talk.  When I finally got through to him - looking for 259E info, I found him to be an amazing font of knowledge and endied up ordering matching paints and other useful stuff.

Post a picture of what you have, someone should be able to ID it.

Steve

The hand made ones have 2-1/2" centres and when I look on the Henning's website they offer shorter ones which are 1-7/8" long. So the next question is which version of engine do I have? The Doyle book doesn't help much.  It has a Vanderbilt tender which is missing the ID plates which doesn't help either. I suspect I may have an engine which is cobbled together from more than one engine.

Sounds like you may need the same rod as I.
After buying one that was too short, I was in contact with Mr. Henning. He told me that he may have the correct mold, and might make some this summer.

I have not found any other possibilities.

All the Flyer wide gauge steamers use the same connecting rods (rods that connect the two drive wheels).

Reason for this is because they all use the same motor block and drive wheels.  The spacing never changes. 

If you have home made or non AF type drive wheels, the spacing could be off compared to factory, but the MEW wheels should line up just fine with replacement MEW, MTH, McCoy, or original AF connecting rods.  The wheels do need to be quartered properly.

The correct part from hennings is AW2002 (R or L)  (yes, they are side specific).  The larger hole goes towards the front of the loco, to allow for slop where it shares a mounting spot with he main rod.

The main rods (from piston rod to front driver) did come in different lengths.

If you post pictures, I can probably tell you which model # loco you have.  The locos and tenders had different model numbers, and then a different 3rd number representing both as a pair, depending on which combo you purchased.  Easy!    

The main rods (from piston rod to front driver) did come in different lengths.

That is the rod I need, from the cross head to the driver.

The side rods/coupling rods and wheels are all MEW replacements and are fine.

The main rod/connecting rods are shown against the ruler and it is these I would like to change for the home made ones.

The main body casting has cast 4692 in the front. There isn't a lot more I can say really, hope this might help to identify what I have. Lastly, when I repaint the shell is it a full gloss or a satin finish?

I did email Harry as mentioned in a previous posting and still waiting for a reply.

Ukaflyer posted:

The side rods/coupling rods and wheels are all MEW replacements and are fine.

The main rod/connecting rods are shown against the ruler and it is these I would like to change for the home made ones.p

The main body casting has cast 4692 in the front. There isn't a lot more I can say really, hope this might help to identify what I have. Lastly, when I repaint the shell is it a full gloss or a satin finish?

I did email Harry as mentioned in a previous posting and still waiting for a reply.

Your loco is a 1931 (earlier) loco.  Notice that the motor has the large levers to operate the reverse.

Full deep gloss black on loco.  If you have a Vanderbilt tender, it should be full gloss black as well.  Don't forget to trim the window frame in gold and the turquoise (Penn Central) green stripe along the edge of the running board.  Red marker light on the right and white marker light on the left.

The vandy tender could have red or black "4693" number plates.  It could come with chrome or grey painted large flex trucks, depending on which application it was used in.

your model # is: 4692 loco, 4693 Vanderbilt tender, 4694 combination (L&T).

MTH makes full sets of rods for these locos.  If you can get them, they are the nicest repros on the market right now, because they are chrome/nickel plated.  The MEW are typically unplated.  I suggest you contact MTH parts, but plan on having to buy the full set  (they are expensive).  You may also have to slightly drill out the crosshead hole (where it slides on the shaft mounted to the steam chests), if you get binding.  Don't panic....just drill it out a bit and make it smooth.

Hennings currently does not have the rods you are looking for.

You could also just use what you have for the time being...

Here's what an original looks like (with MTH rods & new wheels for running).

Ives122

Thank you for identifying which model I have, really helps me out now. The photo you include of your moedel will act as a good reference point on how I will continue with the restoration.

The Vandy tender I have also needs repainting to match the engine. The flexi trucks have been painted a metallic grey which will be restored to a grey, no signs of chrome underneath. I am assuming the grey is a gloss as well, is it a dark or light colour? It is also missing all its brass journal boxes but I believe Henning's supply these which helps. 

On the loco I have three brass safety valves(?) and behind these there is a singleton hole, does anything go in it?

My front and rear trucks have wheels that look like they are brass, are these originals or a repro part in the past, I enclose a couple of pictures of them.

I will look on the MTH website later to see if I can locate a set of new rods etc so that they are all matching. I will also see if they supply the brass plate that goes on the tender as that is missing as well.

Ukaflyer posted:

Ives122

Thank you for identifying which model I have, really helps me out now. The photo you include of your moedel will act as a good reference point on how I will continue with the restoration.

The Vandy tender I have also needs repainting to match the engine. The flexi trucks have been painted a metallic grey which will be restored to a grey, no signs of chrome underneath. I am assuming the grey is a gloss as well, is it a dark or light colour? It is also missing all its brass journal boxes but I believe Henning's supply these which helps. 

On the loco I have three brass safety valves(?) and behind these there is a singleton hole, does anything go in it?

My front and rear trucks have wheels that look like they are brass, are these originals or a repro part in the past, I enclose a couple of pictures of them.

I will look on the MTH website later to see if I can locate a set of new rods etc so that they are all matching. I will also see if they supply the brass plate that goes on the tender as that is missing as well.

 

No problem.  Happy to help.

Tender trucks should be medium-lighter gloss grey.  Trucks should be disassembled for painting and re-rivited back together after painting.  I think Hennings sells the rivets.  Or you could just buy a junk freight/pax car and steal original trucks from it, if you don't want to deal with it.  Axle ends may be peened from the AF factory and will not come out of the truck side frames easily.  You may have to file them down to remove and re-peen after reassembly.  It's a pain in the rear restoring the trucks.

Your pilot and trailing truck wheels look like home made or other replacement type parts that you often find, perhaps made by a home craftsman on a lathe.  The originals were probably the die cast type that failed (crumbled). There are different types of replacements available now, but there's no harm in using the ones you have if they still function.  If your originals have been replaced once, there's probably not enough axle end to do it again.  Replacing them would mean buying a full set of wheels and axles, then the labor.

You may have to email MTH parts or visit their booth at York to obtain the parts.

I think you probably need to decide if you are restoring/making a nice loco to run and enjoy, that may not be a perfect restoration, or restoring it to perfect "as original" condition.  The latter will cost you a lot more time and money getting it "exactly right".    Ultimately, only you can decide what your goal is.

The trim holes in the casting top from front to back are as follows:

-Feedwater heater trim hole (front between the marker lights).  This trim was only installed on the most deluxe model.

-smokestack brass ring (included on every model)

-bell (typically rear hole next to the slot) (the slot is a whole other story, that doesn't really apply to your loco).

-hole for a screw to hold the large boiler weight in place (if equipped)

-hole for the actuator for the bell ringing mechanism on the motor (does not appear to be drilled out on your loco...this is correct for your model)

-3 holes for "pop-off" valves (technically your loco should not have these brass decor pieces installed, as it was the lower trim model, but prior owners often add them to their locos.  I would struggle to believe that AF included them originally, as the model you have was the lowest trim line, with the least amount of bling/extras.

-hole for brass whistle (included on every trim level)

-little hole on the rectangle box thing in front of the cab roof (nothing goes in here on your model, and it was not used except on the very first few full deluxe brass pipers top hold something internally).

Hi IVES1122,

You are right with regards to choices of what level of restoration I am going to do. I am going to return it looking as close to original aesthetically without spending heaps on it. It will be a runner and if I made it as original from factory I would probably not run it.

Looks like I am going to have to be inventive then with the tender trucks. We'll see how they come out.

The pilot and rear truck wheels I will leave, they look OK and will just be polished up to look nice.

I received an email from Harry from Henning's a few days ago and he says he is looking to make the longer piston/con-rods in the not too distant future, so again if they are the same quality and appearance of the MEW wheels and wheel rods it has now I will be happy with this.

My one has as you have mentioned three pop off valves when I got it so I will put them back. I enclose a picture of the top of mine and the hole that I am confused about is the hole near the cab, it looks it is the whistle which you mentioned and I can see in you picture.

Lastly, what came with this engine regarding freight or passenger cars? Looks like I will need a nice operating set, may even be bold and get one of each.

Ukaflyer posted:

My one has as you have mentioned three pop off valves when I got it so I will put them back. I enclose a picture of the top of mine and the hole that I am confused about is the hole near the cab, it looks it is the whistle which you mentioned and I can see in you picture.

Lastly, what came with this engine regarding freight or passenger cars? Looks like I will need a nice operating set, may even be bold and get one of each.

 

The tiny hole closest to the cab roof is for the whistle.

The 4694 came separate sale, or in both passenger and freight sets.  There were some variations, depending upon the application for which it was used and how early or late in the model year it was made.

I would say at this point, buy whatever Flyer cars suit your fancy and enjoy running it.

You didn't mention how many weights came in your loco, so keep that in mind when picking cars.  If you have all three (large boiler weight + both cab weights), your loco should pull long trains (presidential cars) no problem.  Less than that, you might need to adjust accordingly.  Even with no weights, you should be able to pull 3-4 small cars just fine as long as you don't have any uphill grades.

We have the cab weights in stock. We also just finished the assembly of complete brush holders for the loco. w/ brushes & springs. These will be posted today.   The bell hammer and spring will be available shortly.   Harry 

Mine does not have any weights, so another small issue then. What is the minimum weights I need and where is the best place to fit them?

Do the weights vary for each 4-4-2 engine or are they the same for all engines?

Ukaflyer posted:

Mine does not have any weights, so another small issue then. What is the minimum weights I need and where is the best place to fit them?

Do the weights vary for each 4-4-2 engine or are they the same for all engines?

They vary by production year and features on the specific model you have.

Since you have the long levers for the motor reversing control, your loco could have two small weights that fit on the inside of the cab, one under each cab window.  They are basically frame weights from a 4686/4687/4689 presidential type electric loco, re-used for the steamer application by AF.  They are secured by the screws that hold the firebox sides to the bottom of the cab (screws extend up through the floor into the weight).

Just to be clear:  THE LARGE COMMON CAB WEIGHT WITH THE SMALL HOLES (the one that fills up the entire cab) WILL NOT FIT WITH YOUR LARGE REVERSE LEVERS.  This weight came out around 1932, after they revised the motor to small reverse levers.  If you happened to find the large cab weight with the large slots cut in it, that would work, but is a very rare weight as it only came in the higher trim full piper loco for a very short period of time.

You could also have a large, solid chunky boiler weight that "hangs" in the boiler, suspended by a longer 6/32 screw, through the hole you see on the top of your loco just behind the slot (behind the smokestack).

I've seen original versions of your locomotive come with:

• all 3 weights
• just the boiler weight
• just the 2 cab weights
• no weights at all

It depended entirely on which set it came in, trim level, how much weight was needed to pull the train, price point, tender type, and some typical AF haphazardness.

The only weights I could find on Hennings website were these later type, that fit just behind the steam chests, on the same screws as the filler plates.  You could use these.  Typically AF used two per side (4 total) and mounted them so the little angled edge was pointed backward and cleared the drive wheels.  You will most likely need longer screws to mount the two weights, plus the filler plate to your locomotive body.  Flyer typically mounted these and then painted the body, by the way, so that the screw heads had a nice finish of paint and didn't get blemishes from mounting afterward.

http://hennings-trains.shoplig...-of-shasta-loco.html. (not sure why the link says Shasta steps...just ignore that)

They would probably work for you, although not perfectly correct for your loco.  Nobody except me would probably ever notice or care though.  

Like I mentioned before, don't get hung up on searching for all these weights, until you've decided what you want to pull.  The loco by itself does a decent job if you have good, level track.  You could also get some sheet type lead and "roll" it  into a cylinder and "make" your own boiler weight.

Sorry, I know this is somewhat harder without pictures, but I'm not going to disassemble all my steamers just for pics.  

Thanks for all the info re the weights, very interesting and helpful. I'm hope others following this thread find it just as enlightening as well. It seems that my engine is a basic budget model then.

My friend has a piper engine in bits waiting for a new set of wheels so I will have a look at the weights he has just to get an idea of how it all fits together.

I am leaning more towards your idea of putting a large lump of metal/lead in the boiler above the mechanism for greater adhesion.

I wouldn't want you to tear down any engine just for a few weights, your wording above does a good job of what I need to know. 

I would like to get a set of three long  passenger cars with six wheel trucks. Three seems enough for what I need with this engine and say a set of 5-6 freight cars as an alternative consist. I have enough MTH track to make a large long oval and the radius of the curves is reasonably large so it should be fine to pull long passenger cars without slipping.

I shall be leaving it for a few weeks now as I need to get some of my 'S' collection ready for an exhibition in a couple of weeks time and then we are into a busy period work and leisure wise.

The massive cab weight described is not currently something I have in stock. I do have the casting mold to make if anybody is interested. Harry 

Do you mean boiler rather than cab weight Harry? I think the cost to ship to the UK would be prohibitive, which means I will have to look at a local solution.

The cab weight is the BIG one that will not work w/ your loco that has the long control rods out the back of the cab. It would probably cost a fortune for the casting metal for me, besides shipping cost.  I am hoping to cast at least one of our boiler molds this summer in a plastic type material,  just to see what they make.  . I have 2 molds, not sure what they are yet.  Harry 

Harry: Any chance you are going to make those long siderods soon?

We have just begun to look thru the tooling since it 'warmed up'.  My barn is unheated.  The wheel mfg.   has been my 1st goal and we recently started sorting thru the tooling for collector assemblies , brush holders , headlights, & gears .  Trim parts will wait to later as most items are currently available.  I have not found any cast rod tooling for the Wide gauge AF yet.  Harry 

Harry,

in your last email to me you indicated that you were looking at running a batch of the 2.5 inch rods sometime soon, has this changed now? Do you have the parts to make these rods or are you still looking at everything still?

ukaflyer,

               I found 1 set that I bought from Ryan ( MTH ),  at York.  Our part# is AW2030 & AW2031. This is a LH & RH rod & crosshead set complete. $40.00 for the pair, plus shipping, about $6.00 . These are NOT listed on our site. These were bought for use as a comparison to the original & to help in our re-mfg. decisions.  Harry