aluminum passenger cars

I'd agree with that. I have no doubt that the vast majority of folks who operate O gauge trains have layouts way too small for 21" cars. A six car set with E-8 ABA including the spaces between the units will measure almost 15 1/2 feet long! Step that off! For me and everyone I know with a layout, these cars are useless because of their size. But there's no doubt there will be shorter lengths coming at some point. 

And I'll bet a sizable percentage of those Big Boys are sitting on shelves or mantles, too! 

I'm with you on that! Even when painted, to me the difference between plastic and aluminum is noticable. Paint on metal looks different than paint on plastic.

Very interesting.  Wish they had product pictures on their site.

Not sure why this is such a big deal.  Yes I love shiny plated aluminum cars too.  They look awesome, but if I really wanted aluminum only cars, there are tons and tons on the secondary market.  Why do I need Lionel to make the same ones again and again.  I'm excited for the new ones.  Mike inferred we are going to be very surprised on how good the finish is on them.  Technology changes, so don't assume the finishes on these new ones are the same as previous ones produced in plastic.  I won't make judgement until I have one in my hands.  As far as size, I'm happy for the 21" ones, finally.  I'm sure different sizes will be made in the future.  I have some mth plastic Pennsylvania smooth sided ones that are fantastic.  I also have aluminum C&O's I love too.  And I ordered the PRR Senator polished aluminum ones still going to be made.  Bottom line is don't worry so much on what is going to be made or not made.  There is no short supply of aluminum cars if you want them.  But those who did not order the ESE set might be sorry after they see them if they are as good as the inside rumors are saying.  That's the fun of this hobby.  It's always a surprise which toys come next!  ��

I know it was a surprise when those latest Lionel CZ cars came in. 

Seriously, I'm sure the new 21" cars will be extremely nice. Looking forward to usable sizes in the future for those of us who have smaller layouts.

Me neither, but it is a big deal for me.  I prefer metal models to plastic.  I prefer sorta good K- Line cars to perfect plastic Atlas.

You will assume that I am nuts, but ask yourself whether you would rather a plastic 1-700E?  I can assure you the detail would be better.  All steam models would be far less expensive and lots better detailed in lifetime ABS plastic.  I will not be buying.

Marty, please understand my comments were in no way down-playing anything Mike R may have mentioned to you recently -- despite the melodramatic efforts of another poster to twist my comments incorrectly as "taking shots at Mike", which was never the intent. 

Most folks here know Mike to be a stand-up guy in this industry, and I'm sure he has seen his share of frustrating times when products get delayed/cancelled for unforeseen reasons.  Information is dynamic nowadays -- that's for sure.  And things are always subject to change.  As I indicated earlier, this is definitely a space worth watching closely. 

Should Lionel ever produce additional aluminum cars beyond the four 18" sets and two 15" sets they've currently committed to produce for 2015, it will be interesting to see the future price-point(s) and market acceptance of any such offering.

David

Bruce,

That's what I was originally thinking too... and was hoping Lionel would continue production of the 18" Texas Special due to it having a painted aluminum finish.  However that was not to be. 

Ironically, TWO of the four 18" aluminum sets that Lionel decided to produce this year -- the Pennsy Senator and the SP Sunset Limited -- should be polished aluminum (aside from a painted stripe) if finished correctly.  So hopefully, the final product won't be forced down the same path as the recent CZ passenger set. 

Due to this potential uncertainty, I passed on pre-ordering the Pennsy Senator aluminum set.  However, if Lionel produces them with a polished/shiny finish (as they did with the Congressional which is an exquisite set), I would consider acquiring The Senator cars.  They weren't BTO, so hopefully production quantities will be sufficient for those of us who are waiting for delivery to inspect the goods before committing. 

David

It doesn't matter what color or material the passenger cars are, when they put those stick-on windows on the cars they are ruined.  Ruined I tell you!   

Yeah... but I've never had any of those windows fall off any of my 18" Lionel passenger cars.  Can't say the same for other designs, where windows have often fallen inside the passenger car interior over time. 

David

I'm looking forward to Atlas' F unit plating, recently discussed on the Forum, for ATSF units and if it will be on a par to polished/plated aluminum, or prototype stainless steel.

Then my theory is false but that's great...I'm desirous of a Senator or Congressional set but the prospect of ever owning one is slim.  I also prefer physical previews.  When LHS's don't commit to gambles why should I?

Bruce

The OP was asking about bringing production of aluminum cars back to the USA. I don't see this is a runner because of labor costs, which I believe also to be a main factor in curtailing Chinese production. It's only one factor however; aside from that it's been posted several times on recent threads that in addition to QC problems the price of new aluminum car issues at $200 or more per car is reckoned to be more than Lionel's market will bear.

For my part I am willing to give Lionel the benefit of the doubt on the new 21" ABS cars and have pre-ordered one full Texas Special set although I really wonder how they are going to model the polished aluminum surfaces on them. In any case I can see why they might be more interested in the 21" market than in competing in others where there's a pretty wide range of choice, for example 18" ABS cars made by MTH or the secondary market for K-Line aluminum in a variety of sizes.

Budd passenger cars come off better in plastic, provided the roof is molded with the sides, and not a separate part.  Aluminum bodied cars don't have this issue, but lack the detail and little nuances that can be shoe-horned into the plastic cars.

I'm not sure labor cost comes into play. Making aluminum car bodies lends itself to complete automation. You start out with either Pullman Standard or Budd extrusions (ACF doesn't lend itself to extrusions). Then put them in CNC to cut out the windows and doors. Change the program to change window configuration.

With plastic you need a different mold or at least movable inserts for every configuration. Plastic is cheaper than aluminum for sure, but how much. A couple of bucks? Ten bucks??

Skeptical? Check out Joe Barker's link to OK Engines.

Pete

I think it does come into play because as far as I know no manufacturer has automated the assembly process; the car interiors still have to installed (with or without passengers) together with whatever lighting is included and the body/interior assembly mounted on a frame with trucks that have a power supply, which itself has to be wired up and connected. The occasional photos we see of 3rd Rail's China manufacturing plant shows hand assembly of passenger cars and locos.

Anyway the debate is a little academic because it's clear Lionel is no longer going to produce the range of aluminum cars it once did and cost has clearly been a factor in their decision. I'd very much like to know more than the occasional hints we're getting about the 21" passenger car features and finishes. Maybe somebody can get hard info at York?

Of course labor is required for assembly but how is cheaper to assemble a plastic car than it is for an aluminum car?

Pete

Fair point. Dunno the answer and those who do aren't giving more than hints for us to speculate about.

I just checked out that site. I never heard of them before so thanks for the tip Joe. I learn something new every day on this forum

thanks again

rick