another CW80 or ZW

If you might ever add MTH's DCS, avoid the CW80; I understand there are compatability issues. 

At some point, I might just add MTH DCS.

So that means I need to buy a zw. Now  new zw-l or zw275 rebuilt? Which one will  be better if I uselegacy and DCS 

If you use strictly command, consider some PowerHouse 180 bricks, they're probably a cheaper option and work great in that environment.

Providedyou use external breakers or fuses, the ancient postwar ZW's are hard to beat.  Before buying a used or "rebuilt" one, I suggest removing the top and making sure the wire coils on the core haven't been damaged by the rollers on the ends of the contact fingers.  That is not economically repairable.

As I'm a one month a year holiday train runner is this something to be concerned about? I see the call for fuses pop up every so often?

Would someone have a picture of a proper set up?

looks like this could be complex for me to figure out as i do not understand all this well. 

Charles ro  has a ZW TRANSFORMER 275W REBUILT for 275. i am assuming if i buy from them, they would have already done this inspection. a brick will be about 75 dollars plus i guess the fuse, etc will be another 50 to 75 dollars (i will have to get the lionel stuff as it will be better integrated with Legacy). so in all i am looking at at least $400+ and also i get just one brick.

the new ZW-L is 699. and has all the bricks in built, so less clutter. i am just wondering if this would be a better deal thinking long term life of this for about 20 years and less clutter. i tried to find reviews of the new zw-l but could not find any. people were skeptical about its performance and whether it will be trouble free.

any help/suggestions please...

That's way too much for a ZW, you'd be far better off spending a bit more money for the Z4000 with modern breakers and more capacity.

If you run strictly command, go with the Powerhouse 180 bricks.

A fuse holder & fuse run a couple of dolalrs at most; a breaker can be had for about $8 (with of course no further fuse expense.

I'm inclined to agree with the gunrunner that $275 is a bit much for a rebuilt ZW, when compared to what a Z4000 can be had for by Googling.  I'm not personally familiar with the bricks.

The bricks can be had for around $80 as a rule, and they have an honest 180 watt output and a very fast acting electronic breaker, no extra output protection needed.  IMO, they're the perfect solution for command-only environments.  OTOH, if you want to run conventional at times, I think the Z4000 is a good choice.

I'd pay no more than $150-175 tops for a PW ZW, and personally I don't pay that much.  I do my own reconditioning, typically they just need about $8-10 worth of parts.  I can buy a ZW for $100 or less and recondition it myself, line cord, carbon rollers, sometimes some terminal posts, and maybe a couple of diodes for 10% of them.  A little cleaning and it's ready to go.

Think about the PW ZW, it has a maximum of around 220-230 watts real output power (remember, those were rated by input power), why pay twice the money per watt as for the bricks.

Hello guys and gals.........

I would invest in a Z4000 and think of it as a one time investment.   I just picked up my Z4000 and it worked GREAT right out of the box!   There was a posted thread about the Z4000 many folks there are happy with theirs.   I think you WONT be disappointed.  Just my opinion............

The woman who loves the S.F..#5011

Tiffany

All well put. One of the issues I see is those reading the forum. A majority are folks who are fortunate to have a layout and run their trains whenever they like. Then there are many like me. My first Lionel was given to me by my grandparents. Every year I keep the tradition alive buy a few pieces and run the train around the tree till the day after Christmas when I expand the heck out of it and move it to the carpeted basement.

For years and years the ZW is probably what many of us used with that Christmas train. Then along came TMCC and the Cab1. I'll admit I'm confused every year when I take it out and try to get things rolling.

Now add Legacy, powerblocks... Many of us, like me, don't have a clue or want to invest the cash for a month of use. I don't have any friends to ask and as helpful as the forum is there are certain things that having a buddy with you would certainlu make allot easier.

Just my two cents... 

Jeff T I think you're putting to much complication into Legacy. The hookup is exactly the same as TMCC and the cab1. One wire to the outside rail that's it. If you're going to run all command engines no blocks are required. If you want to run conventional and have a transformer with a handle on it just leave the Legacy base turned off and run the conventional engine with the transformer handle. When you want to run a command engine turn on the Legacy base and then set the transformer handle to just short of all the way and then address the engine with the cab2. That's it.

Ron

Hi John,

when you say command, do you mean only Legacy or you also mean DCS as well? i have Legacy only right now and plan to add DCS soon. i have no plans to add conventional at this point as i think its too much pain. plus i have just got into this hobby this year and started to build my collection. i think its better to just focus on remote stuff though sometimes when i see the polar express conventional, i want that but then i control myself

With command control you can still run conventional, you run it under track power or other setting that lets you control the voltage.

There are two different command control systems out there, 1)Lionel's TMCC & Legacy, 2)MTH's DCS. You might be able to control some features of TMCC with DCs but not all features and vice versa for DCS and TMCC.

However to power either system, it would be best to stay away from the CW-80, especially if you are going to add MTH's DCS.

Lee F.

For command only, be it Legacy, DCS, or both, I like the Lionel PowerHouse 180.  Since there is no need to vary the track voltage, there's no reason to have a transformer capable of doing so.  Also, if you happen to want a conventional loop, the MTH TIU has the capability on two of it's channels to control conventional locomotives.  I use that feature to test conventional stuff, and you can run them from the remote just like the command stuff.

great. so i have to get a TMCC Direct Lockon as a fuse and a Powerhouse. can this powerhouse be used for accessories as well?

Thats great to know John, that way i can get one or two conventional engines if i really luke something and still be able to run them. i am sure Lionel engines can be cntrolled too

You can NOT use a TMCC direct Lockon with DCS, it kills the signal.  However, if you have a PowerHouse 180, it has an electronic breaker that is very fast, which eliminates the need for the TMCC Direct Lockon anyway. 

I run the MTH TIU with a pair of PowerHouse 180 bricks supplying power to the four channels.  It works fine.

I recommend a separate transformer for accessories in any case, you can pick up something like a KW pretty cheap which gives you two variable channels to power things at lower voltages.  The 18 volts from the PH-180 is a bit much for many accessories.

ok. so u mean no fuse is needed. i can connect the powerhouse directly to the fastrack tracks. do i need some kind of adapter for that?

also what is a KW transformer?

No fuse for the PowerHouse 180 is required, it has an excellent breaker.  If you happen to use a PowerHouse 135, you should include a better circuit breaker or fuse that one is a lot slower.  For the KW, you clearly need circuit protection, the anemic breaker in it only protects the transformer, not anything connected to it.

The KW!

Twins?

is there a newer version of KW, i will like to buy something new

I tend to disagree with gunrunner on this comment:

For the KW, you clearly need circuit protection, the anemic breaker in it only protects the transformer, not anything connected to it.

The KW breaker "protects" the transformer and the load to the same extent:  not reliable for either, just like the old ZW.

I haven't read every post in this thread, but I'll offer my recommendation:  Get the new Lionel ZW-L or the MTH Z4000 and be set for many years of model railroading fun.  Yes, both are a bit costly--especially the new ZW-L--but it will be money well invested.

I use the Z4000 and have no complaints at all about its performance.  I only wish I had invested in one a number of years ago.

YES!  Lionel GW-180.

Before getting involved with a GW-180, I'd carefully check into its compatibility with DCS.  I appears to have a controller separate from the actual transformer, which means it might alter the waveform to an extent that it won't work with a variable TIU circuit.  I don't know, but will state this yellow flag.

RJR you're technically correct BUT the brick that comes with the transformer is just a powerhouse 180 that could interface directly with the TIU with no problems.

OK, just so he;s aware that using the controller with the brick MIGHT cause problems.  I suspect, without checking, that bricks can be bought for less than complete 2-component power supplies.

Like I said earlier, the 180W bricks regularly go for $70-80, and are a good choice for command-only operation.  I'm sure the GW-180 will go for considerably more.

RJR, I sure wouldn't depend on the KW breaker to protect anything I had connected to it, you're free to do that with your equipment.

Gunrunner:  Isn't that what I said about the KW?

Well, you seemed to imply it protected the load, I disagree.  The heavy windings on the transformer are designed for the full current of the breaker and probably more.  However, many loads on the other end won't take that kind of current.

The difference with that and a modern transformer like the PH-180 is the electronic breaker on the PH-180 senses the over-current and trips instantly.  Even a much more delicate load will far more likely survive.

Try this little experiment, use a #30 wire and short a KW and a PH-180.  Tell me which one burns up the wire and which one trips and the wire is intact.

As I said, the post-war KW & ZW breaker protects the load to the same extent as it does protect its windings--namely, not at all.  The old thermal breakers that Lionel used were never fast acting, and often would not blow until well over the rated current was flowing in the transformer secondary.  In addition, the old Lionel transformers had the breakers on the U terminal, which provided no protection--internal or external--for shorts between other posts. 

Yep, the point of cross-terminal shorts has been mentioned before, a valid concern.  I think we're on the same page after all.

I actually so an overload test on transformers I recondition, so I know the breakers at least work, but I don't trust them anyway.

ok. since i am new and still learning, so lot of things in the last few comments i couldnt understand but what i understood is that i shall get a powerhouse and connect it directly to the fastrack terminal. my question is, do i need a special adapter for it? i was looking at the manual of the powerhouse and it does not show a place for connecting wires directly but it has some kind of adapter.

You can use a Molex connector and "roll your own".  Some cut the plug off the PH-180, but I do not recommend that.

sorry if i am asking too many questions but all this is totally new to me. i searched and found this 6-12893 and this 6-14194 .

 which one will work?

The 6-14194 set includes two pigtails that will connect to the PH-180 and have spade lugs on them.  You can simply cut the spade lugs off and splice those to the track feed.  The center two connectors mate with the PH-180.