Anyone running Shay/Heislers?

Which shay do you have?  I have the Lionel Heisler and 3-Truck Shay the MTH 4 Truck Shay PS-1 (needs work) and Climax. and last but not least is my favorite K-Line 2 Truck Shay. The Lionel 2-Truck Shay is based off the K-Line but I don't know if it pulls the same.

I have been working on my layout and have a temporary 7% grade on the logging line (mainline is 2.5%).  The K-Line Shay will push over 4 DIE-Cast cars up the hill without flinching, speed step 2 is the same speed up or down.  None of the other engines will do that.  The Heisler will only push 2 Die-Cast cars up with some complaining.  Skeleton Log cars are much much lighter.

I am thinking of putting in a switch back to get up the hill without the 7% grade.  I was pushing the cars up so if a coupler gave I wouldn't have a Die-Cast missile.

These engines are a crowd pleaser and fun to watch work.   They are definitely not main-line engines.

I love my logging engines!!! Lionel Heisler, MTH SHAY, MTH Climax, and K line Shay. They all run smooth although I have not put in a steep grade yet. Currently running 4 loops. Have not finalized the track plan yet, your report on the pulling power of the Kline Shay has me thinking about a switchback.

I have the Birch Valley shay; bidding on a heisler---man I am leery of this and wish I could get a new model...   I asked Lionel and they alluded to new production.

I am curious how the MTH models have been for folks; I am purchasing gargraves track to run them.

Your comment on a switchback echo's my plan for the hillside---I was not gunning for a 75 grade though.

loco-dan infected me with an interest in logging!

I tell ya, the Shay's, GG1 and Trainmasters have to be my top three....    Just wonderful to watch operate!

I would purchase a Heisler as I found one, but I have a hunch Lionel will reissue the engine and I am nervous about purchasing off ebay...

A Lionel Heisler run by:

Loco Dan,

Can you tell me about your satisfaction with the Heisler?    How is it pulling loaded cars etc...?

thx

Just got my first Shay a few weeks ago. It a new Lionel 2 Truck West Side Lumber Legacy Version. LOVE IT.

Here is a video if it running.

Also have a PS-3 Climax on order from MTH. Can't wait for it to come in...

..Gromet

My second favorite, after the K-Line 2-Truck Shay, is the MTH Climax.  It's a great MTH puffer.  The Shay's are geared differently and puffing wouldn't be realistic.

The Lionel Heisler is from Lionel's first run and probably doesn't have cruise control thus is doesn't run as good as the first two.  A MTH Climax vid for you.

Shays are cool.  I have the Bachmann G scale one and it's really fun to watch running.

Even more fun since I borrowed the chuff sound equipment from my Bachmann 4-6-0.  Sounds good enough for me.

I have been just trying to find the flat cars.  anyone have any ideas?

not these;

SKELETON LOG CAR

6-27836 | Price: $69.99

What flat cars are you looking for?

Call Nicholas Smith Trains in Broomall, PA.  A couple of weeks ago, Chris invited me into the back stockroom when we were looking for an older MTH Climax loco.  Turns out they didn't have it, but we found plenty of MTH Premier logging cars.  You might also want to check the MTH product locator if you're looking for a specific set.  As for Lionel versions of the logging cars, can't say for sure.  But it's always worth asking at Nicholas Smith.  They have quite an inventory.

Best of luck!

David

I am very pleased with my Lionel TMCC-equipped three-truck Shay lettered for the "Birch Valley Lumber Company". Great smoke, s-l-o-w speed control, and a nice whistle & bell!

I operate it on an MTH 082 RealTrax loop with three Lionel "Birch Valley" skeleton log cars with REAL wood loads and an MTH Long Island bobber caboose.

My alternate caboose is an MPC green Reading bobber caboose with added metal wheels. 

Here is that same Reading caboose with a paint job.  I have since added a smokejack.

I love my shay. Still need to finish the rest of my logging cars though. It is a MTH version. 

Al--beautiful weathering!    Chalk or spray...?

Thanks Brad, spray

Logging locos are the best.

nicholas smith trains gave me what I was looking for.

http://www.nicholassmithtrains...FLAT-CARS/page4.html

thanks

BradA

I just ordered MTH’s  #20-3447-1 Climax Specialty Freight Set w/Proto-Sound 2.0  in the Hillcrest road name (MSRP of $999.95). For $100 more than the price of the engine, you get a bobber caboose and 5 skeleton with log loads and the Climax engine. A Premier six-car set of skeleton cars with log loads has an MSRP of $199.95, and a Premier bobber has an MSRP of $44.95. So your essentially saving $111.57 buying it as a set. Decent value, I think, especially with the discount I get from my local dealer.

If you’re looking at modeling a logging company scene, may I suggest reading The Model Railroader's Guide to Logging Railroads by Matt Colemann. Also Modeling logging railroads vol. 3: Logging projects by Jack Work, which offers track plans with logging ponds and sawmills.

bigdodgeramtrain

MTH made several logging flat cars with log loads of the non-skeleton type in their Premier line. The most recently cataloged were in 2010 Vol. 1     #20-98713 in PRR, 20-98714 in Chicago Northwestern, 20-98715  in Great Northern, 20-98716 in Spokane Portland & Seattle, all with a MSRP $49.95.

Doug Schreiner

Cumberland County NJ 4-H Model Train Club

Doug,

Many thanks---I just got a copy of the Coleman book last week!    I also have a slug of skeleton and log cars.    Just need to set up the tracks!

BradA

Thanks for starting this thread.  I live in a town with a history of logging.  In fact, I used to drive to work on a county road built on a 1920s logging railroad grade.  Here are a few random thoughts on O gauge logging equipment.

There are some nice looking skeleton cars out there.  The Atlas Industrial Rail skeleton car is very nicely detailed although the trucks don't go with the car. Unfortunately, all the Atlas, Lionel and MTH skeleton cars are too short for modeling pacific northwest logging.  It is hard to haul 40 foot logs on a 28 foot car. 

Don't be afraid to use flat cars from a class 1 railroad on a logging line.  I have seen plenty of pictures of GN, NP and Milwaukee cars on logging railroads.  However, those cars were usually used when part of a trip to a mill or log dump was over the railroad that provided the car.

Both MTH and Lionel have offered three truck Shays lettered and numbered as Weyerhaeuser No. 5.  The real locomotive worked on Weyerhaeuser's Vail operation that sent logs from the Cascades south of Mt. Rainier to be dumped in the sound near Olympia or interchanged with the Milwaukee.  The 5 worked on the spurs to where the cutting was taking place and rod locomotives (usually 2-8-2s or 2-6-6-2 Mallets) moved the loads down the Weyerhaeuser main line to tidewater.  The No. 5 was a Pacific Coast Shay.  The Lima brought out the Pacific Coast model in response to the technically advanced locomotives built by Willamette.  Both the Pacific Coast Shay and the Willamette feature superheat and piston valves.  Earlier Lima Shays had saturated steam and slide valves.  The Lionel model represents a Pacific Coast Shay.

Most of the logs from Vail went to Weyerhaeuser mills in Everett.  After turning the logs into lumber or paper in Everett the finished products went off to market on the GN, NP or Milwaukee Road.  The GN mainline went through Everett and the NP and Milwaukee had branches to reach it.  Just one of the Weyerhaeuser mills in Everett had an output of 1 million board feet of lumber a day.  That would fill about 30 box cars so there was plenty of traffic to go around.  The GN, NP and Milwaukee had company from the Union Pacific in Seattle and Tacoma. In Portland, Oregon the SP&S and Southern Pacific joined in the competition.

There is a virtually endless variety to model with logging and forest product operations form the mountains to the finished products headed east.  Cutting sites offer the possibility to model yarders and loaders.  And there are variations to each of those.  Do you want to model steam donkeys or a gas or diesel yarders?  Do you want to model a duplex loader operation or a hayrack boom?  Do you want your outfit to use skeleton cars, flat cars or both?  Logging roads, especially big outfits, used tank cars to bring water and fuel oil to the landings so you have a use for those type of cars too.  Gondolas, especially the drop bottom type like MTH makes were also used to transport logs and, later with extended sides, haul wood chips from saw mills to paper mills.  In the 60s and 70 many old box cars were used without doors to transport veneer to plywood mills.  And then there are the finished products.   Telephone poles shipped on flat cars or gondolas and could be untreated or creosoted.  Weaver and Lionel have made drop end gondolas that can be used for shipping poles over 42 feet long with an idler flat car used to buffer the overhang.  Dimension lumber could be shipped in box cars or on flat cars.  Pulp and paper shipped in box cars.  Many times automobile box cars from eastern roads were sent back with lumber, pulp or paper.  In the 50s and 60s many of the improvements in freight cars like load securing devices and wider door openings on box cars and bulkheads on flat cars were were in high demand by the forest products industry.  

You picked up a good reference in the MR book.  There are many more great logging books and magazines.  Oso publishing has put out some great material.  And the Tacoma Public Library and the University of Washington Library have excellent on line photo collections.  The Pickett photos at the UW are especially helpful to model early logging operations.

While "its your railroad, do what you want" is always true it is also the way most logging operations were run in the steam logging era.  So have at it and have fun!

I have the Western Maryland shay and Hillcrest Lumber Climax, both by MTH.  They are the neatest locos.  Love running them.

Wow--Ted you have really helped!    I too am in the PNW and was thinking of scratch building a Slaymill  http://www.btsrr.com/bts8300.htm   I love the idea of the chips coming back up the line and going to a pulp mill at the other end of the operation; my layout space is 11x22 so it will be tight; trying to squeeze in a blast furnace too.

I sure hope lionel does a new legacy scale 44 tonner this year as it would be awesome for the layout.

Ted,

You are a few miles north of me; I would like to learn more about a logging RR from you when time permits.   My email is in my profile.

thx

BradA

Glad to hear that you found the information helpful.  That is just the tip of the iceberg.  There were a lot of trains moving a lot a logs until not that long ago.

If you want to see a paper mill in operation grab a camera and go to Everett soon before the Kimberly Clark (formerly Scott) mill closes.  That will be the end of a huge era.  In 1970 Everett was home to three paper mills (Weyerhaeuser Mill A on the bay side, Simpson-Lee in Lowell and Scott), Two more Weyerhaeuser saw mills (mills B and C on the river side and at the very north end of town respectively) plus many more lumber, plywood, shingle and poll operations.  If you want a paper mill you will have a good reason to get some Hooker tank cars.  Both Hooker and Penn-Salt had chlor-alkali plants in Tacoma that did a good business supplying the pulp and paper industry. 

If you are interested in the Milwaukee and the NP they both have fine local organizations populated by fans as well as veterans.  The Milwaukee group has an annual get together at Cedar Falls.  Look for the next one late this year.  Cedar falls was home for helpers on the mainline over the Cascades as well as the beginning of the Milwaukee branches to Enumclaw and Everett.  Here is a link to the last program.

http://www.milwelectric.org/20...ukee-road-fall-meet/

Allan Miller also posted some great information about the Everett branch on line.

http://www.railroadforums.com/...owthread.php?t=34867

Enumclaw and Snoqualmie (on the Everett branch) were home to Weyerhaeuser saw mills as well and originated many more cars of chips every day headed to Mill A in Everett.

The BTS mill kit has a general resemblance to Mill B and C in Everett.

The NP group meets at the White River Valley Museum in Auburn.

http://www.wrvmuseum.org/events.htm

I think you will have a hard time fitting a blast furnace into an 11 x 22 space with a saw mill and a pulp mill.  However, you might think about modeling the rolling mill in Ballard.  It was near to the Phoenix Shingle Mill and Seattle Cedar, a very large cedar lumber mill.  Phoenix and Seattle Cedar sat on the East and West sides of the Ballard Bridge.  Or, you might have a look at the electric arc mill in West Seattle.  It is about as good a pocket sized steel mill as you can find and offers scrap loads in and steel loads out for traffic.  Its location near the west waterway was also home to saw mills and a lovely little creosote plant.  

I don't think we will see a Legacy 44 tonner.  The Legacy electronics package would be a tough squeeze in that small a locomotive.  But Protosound 3 could happen.  Ifthe electronics will fit in HO an O scale 44 tonner should work too.

There is something about the Lionel shay that when I saw and heard one, I just had to have one. I am not sure if its the bumping and banging of the rods, or just the chaotic action of the drive train. They are alot of fun and love running it, and I really don't have a logging rail road but I sure like the action that it provides.

David

A nice purchase; please don't be too harsh on retailers---they are not making a killing selling engines and if they have been holding stock for a year or more--it has cost them money too!     Being in retail, I have a soft spot for small businesses and am trying to purchase from individual craftsman and small local shops when I can to insure they are around when I need them!

PS--how do you know MTh is doing a new set of Climaxes....?    any heislers coming?...

Ted, I purchased the archbar trucks from Weaver and installed them onto my Industrial rail cars as well as installing scale Kadee couplers.

Original trucks

The cars look even better now.

Archbar trucks

Brad, MTH cataloged them in 2011... Vol 1 if I remember correctly.  If you look at the MTH website's product locator -- search 20-3447 for the new Climax set -- you'll see the ship date indicates "TBA" though.    And I believe that's because MTH recently experienced a factory closure in China and needed to relocate their production of steam locomotives to another location.  At least that's what I've been told... and I've seen similar reports here to that effect... so for now, I can only imagine the TIME that's been taking to re-establish a new production facility.  No word on new Shays or Heislers.

RE: my comment on unscrupulous dealers...  I understand being a small business, as I'm a small business owner myself.  What I don't tolerate though -- and never have -- is when dealers in our little corner of the world attempt to market their inventory as "overnight collectables" and jack up prices -- counting on unsuspecting toy train enthusiasts who are simply in this hobby to enjoy it.  MSRP's are published for a reason. And if a dealer wants to charge above MSRP for items, that's their choice... and they're more than welcome to try to run a business that way.  I just won't be one of their clients.

I have the MTH climax and even though it is ten years old it runs as well when it was new. I like the heisler, may have to get one.

Hi David,

I reading your second thread, I can appreciate your position--thanks for the heads up on the Climax too.

Nice work Al.  And I love the weathering on the Shay too.

It's too bad logging operations didn't use many turntables. 

I am getting close to building my second large layout bench work is done. I was thinking of building a logging line. I have a Lionel shay and they run great. Can some post a picture or video of a switchback.

Thanks,

Howard

I was at my local dealer this afernoon. The owners had been to MTH in Columbia, MD earlier this week. Shipping costs are eating into their thin profit margin, so it paid them to bring all the engines they couldn't repair down to MTH for the "factory" technicians to work on. They were told that there is no date yet on shipping of the Climaxs. And, management has no idea as to if they might be shipped this year (Frustrating!!!).

BradA, you mentioned Heislers. MTH never catalogued a Heisler that I know of. Lionel cataloged one in the Cass Scenic RR and the Meadow River RR in 2003 Vol 2 and in the Pickering Lumber Corp. in 2004 Vol 2 ($1,199,99 MSRP for all 3). Since MTH didn't catalog any Premier O-gauge steam engines in the 2012 Vol 1 catalog, it would be a safe bet that there won't be any Heisler offerings in the near future. If you need a Heisler to complete a scene, I'd suggest trying to find a Lionel dealer that may have one.

I specifically did NOT mention the dealer's name who was asking over MSRP, so I don't think there's any bashing of Mom & Pop shops going on here.  As I indicated, I'm a small business owner myself... so I understand the costs of running a business.  I guess the over-MSRP thing is just a pet peeve of mine, and I hate to see dealers taking advantage of model train enthusiasts shopping for something particular.  This forum is all about sharing, so it's great that readers can see/read here that there ARE alternatives out there for those who shop wisely when looking for something special.  There's seldom a need to be SO impulsive that you pay over-MSRP to someone looking to make a quick buck.

Quite frankly, I get turned off when a dealer complains to me that he can't make a profit selling at MSRP given his product cost for a specific item.  I would politely suggest he's got a MAJOR problem with his business model.  And if he feels that strongly about it, then he shouldn't be in this business, or he shouldn't carry that company's product line.  It's really that simple.  But don't insult the prospect by giving them a worn out line in an attempt to make the sale.

As for the scenario you described about shipping defective products under warranty... yes, it's unfortunate that there are grey areas in business.  But every business has them, and it's the business owners responsibility to insure they protect themselves to the best extent possible and negotiate favorable terms with their suppliers.  The amount of sophisticated electronics in this stuff nowadays is down-right scary when you think about the fact that the talent to manufacture this stuff is nowhere to be found but 10,000 miles away.  Sad situation we've created in our country, but that's a whole other topic unto itself!  When everything works, life is wonderful.  When this modern stuff breaks, look out!!!

David

It is never good to listen to a small business man complain, it is a turn off.

Back on subject.  I think Ted and a few others would like to see some logging cars built like these.  The K-Line - Williams come the closest. But them couplers on a very small logging car sure destroy the look.

Dan

I guess I have the photo posting working.